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Old 2013-02-05, 09:03   Link #2961
DonQuigleone
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I actually wanted to blame China, or rather, the SEA for fostering the "blue-collar slave" mentality in these companies. With access to a seemingly unlimited supply of manpower for hardcore labour, companies, even Japanese/Korean ones treat their workers like trash, and insert fresh-graduates from university with less than a year of bottom-end experience to manage these workers.

But businesses have karmic shifts. Now rise the SME contractors set up by the bottom end contractors who hold these big companies at mercy with their know-how. The companies think they can switch these contractors around, but the familiarisation costs and downtime with the other SME add up over time - it is a silent killer.
I think what we're seeing right now is some growing pains. Right now bad companies are able to support themselves just by exploiting cheap labour. But eventually that supply of labour will run out, and labour costs will start to rise. At that point the lean enterprises will survive, while the others will die. It happened in Korea, initially they tried to build a car industry based on cheap wages, but those wages didn't last forever and the industry then crashed hard. Today, however, many Korean companies are as efficient as the best Japanese companies. However, it might take a bit longer with China & SEA, simply because they're so much bigger, it will take that much longer to exhaust the labour supply. However, once that labour supply has run out, the only major source of cheap labour that will still be left will be Africa, but that Continent is too unstable to make it's exploitation feasible in the near future.

Quote:
1. How science and math is being taught in schools (what do you mean by "just memorise the formula and don't ask too much"?)
Definitely, it needs to move into the 21st century. When I was taught the only computers we used on a regular basis were calculators. Real engineers need to be able to use Matlab!
Quote:
2. How people treat engineers and technicians (blue-collar workers with nowhere else to go in life)
3. How technical work is viewed as simple and monotone (have you nuts ever tried building an electrical circuit from scratch with only a list of what functions it should have?)
Definitely. Though, I think it's much worse for Technicians then Engineers. Engineers still get more respect because it's largely "desk work", while people regard technicians with the attitude you speak. In truth, having skilled engineers and technicians is important to having a successful efficient industrial operation. People are still in a "mass production" mentality, that technicians are just mindless drones endlessly pulling levers over and over again, while the truth is anything but. First, Technicians aren't the same as line workers anyway, and second that even line workers today need to be skilled at problem solving and looking for ways to improve the line. And it's the technicians that you need when things go really wrong. No number of businessmen, finance gurus or even Engineers will help you when half the city has lost power (okay, engineers can help quite a bit , but they can't directly fix the fault!)
Quote:
Finance pays less than engineering, but people don't want to go into engineering because of how they are being viewed.
I don't know, where I am finance pays consistently more then engineering, and a lot of talent is being funneled into enterprises of dubious productivity (does making trades 5 milliseconds earlier really help people get the products they need or want?). More and more resources seem to be going towards the stock markets rather then the innovative projects the stock market is supposed to help finance.
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Old 2013-02-05, 09:04   Link #2962
RRW
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
So here's the deal: Do you people want gyukatsu (hammered beef) or minchikatsu (minced beef)? I'll write up a recipe once that is decided.
I dunno, which one is better?
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Old 2013-02-05, 09:08   Link #2963
Bri
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post

I really don't think so. For me (and some people whom I know in the first year of my university as part-time/sabbatical students), they didn't want to study engineering or want to quit the engineering field because of the lack of motivation given by most employers. I love science and engineering, but I hate :

1. How science and math is being taught in schools (what do you mean by "just memorise the formula and don't ask too much"?)
2. How people treat engineers and technicians (blue-collar workers with nowhere else to go in life)
3. How technical work is viewed as simple and monotone (have you nuts ever tried building an electrical circuit from scratch with only a list of what functions it should have?)

Finance pays less than engineering due to the current increase of supply if such graduates, but people don't want to go into engineering because of how they are being viewed.
Guess it depends on your local market. When I got my bachelor in aerospace engineering the sector crashed here and as a result there were few job openings. So I switched to economics and went from there.

At the time starting salaries were about 30% higher in financial sector. If I look at students I knew from those years, most of the engineers have plateaued early with no way to move up in to management. Without seniority rules they just seem more vulnerable to office politics and project managers (the bane of every organization imo).
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Old 2013-02-05, 09:16   Link #2964
Bri
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
So here's the deal: Do you people want gyukatsu (hammered beef) or minchikatsu (minced beef)? I'll write up a recipe once that is decided.
The latter are a bit similar to croquettes. If prepared from well they're very nice.
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Old 2013-02-05, 09:40   Link #2965
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I think what we're seeing right now is some growing pains. Right now bad companies are able to support themselves just by exploiting cheap labour. But eventually that supply of labour will run out, and labour costs will start to rise. At that point the lean enterprises will survive, while the others will die. It happened in Korea, initially they tried to build a car industry based on cheap wages, but those wages didn't last forever and the industry then crashed hard. Today, however, many Korean companies are as efficient as the best Japanese companies. However, it might take a bit longer with China & SEA, simply because they're so much bigger, it will take that much longer to exhaust the labour supply. However, once that labour supply has run out, the only major source of cheap labour that will still be left will be Africa, but that Continent is too unstable to make it's exploitation feasible in the near future.
And they refuse to build space colonies to exploit. Dumbasses - what are they afraid of? Colony drops by unhappy space workers?

Quote:
Definitely, it needs to move into the 21st century. When I was taught the only computers we used on a regular basis were calculators. Real engineers need to be able to use Matlab!
I think that is one of the flaws that came along when we adapted the Japanese ideas of manufacturing and engineering. That single idea of "elimination of unnecessary" combined with "if it ain't broke don't fix it" certainly destroys any infrastructure upgrade proposals.

One thing though, it seems that Japanese companies don't really understand technology. I worked for a couple and they are still using dated POS systems and analog switching for their machines. The latter is the main cause of man-hours lost when a part jammed, you have to reset the entire fucking switchboard AGAIN.

Quote:
Definitely. Though, I think it's much worse for Technicians then Engineers. Engineers still get more respect because it's largely "desk work", while people regard technicians with the attitude you speak. In truth, having skilled engineers and technicians is important to having a successful efficient industrial operation. People are still in a "mass production" mentality, that technicians are just mindless drones endlessly pulling levers over and over again, while the truth is anything but. First, Technicians aren't the same as line workers anyway, and second that even line workers today need to be skilled at problem solving and looking for ways to improve the line. And it's the technicians that you need when things go really wrong. No number of businessmen, finance gurus or even Engineers will help you when half the city has lost power (okay, engineers can help quite a bit , but they can't directly fix the fault!)
I agree, as a technician. But the Engineer I am under doesn't get it easy - a proposal I made had to be trashed because he made the same proposal 1 year ago, and it is not yet implemented.

Would have went back to being an insurance agent if it was alot more interesting. Money is good, but the job is boring and there is way too much liability held.

Quote:
I don't know, where I am finance pays consistently more then engineering, and a lot of talent is being funneled into enterprises of dubious productivity (does making trades 5 milliseconds earlier really help people get the products they need or want?). More and more resources seem to be going towards the stock markets rather then the innovative projects the stock market is supposed to help finance.
Actually I would say it is good for the economy because of the money creation process, it puts money in the hands of those who knew how to run these systems themselves instead of pointing fingers at others to run it for them.

And who are these people who knew? Engineers who were hired to program and work the system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Guess it depends on your local market. When I got my bachelor in aerospace engineering the sector crashed here and as a result there were few job openings. So I switched to economics and went from there.

At the time starting salaries were about 30% higher in financial sector. If I look at students I knew from those years, most of the engineers have plateaued early with no way to move up in to management. Without seniority rules they just seem more vulnerable to office politics and project managers (the bane of every organization imo).
And being in a company that adopts the Japanese standards of hierachy makes it worse. The "seniors" are direct entry morons with less than 1 year experience - when shit hits the fan, they are completely clueless : only the sandwich bread knows what is going on and what is required, then due to the lack of knowledge and lingo, communication breaks down in transit from top to bottom.

I think you know the rest.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-02-05, 09:53   Link #2966
Ridwan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Would need specific examples, but I figure that it's probably due to the importance of Indonesia to Japan these days. Koreans (even if they are basically invisible), Chinese, Americans, and Europeans are basically stock by now, leaving mostly Southeast Asia as the significant "foreign" element. Among the countries there, the Philippines and Indonesia are the most prominent, and since Indonesia is more "foreign" (obviously Islam among many things), it would be more utilized.

This is just speculation. I would need specific examples for further analysis.
Yeah, there's the fresh meat thing. Also, it is being consistent with the current geo-economic trend.

About the evidences, I'll gather as many stuff from Kyo-Ani sometimes later. In the mean time, here's one from Psycho-Pass :


^This one is clever. Old spelling being there really cracked me up

Quote:
Originally Posted by RRW View Post
By some reason I can see that



Thank to Chunibyo, I am surprised that Japanese word of potato (Jaga-imo) is come from Jakarta.
Kyo-Ani has always liked doing things on their terms, but being hipster in referencing Indonesia is among the more intriguing ones. Do they have any Indonesian in their staff or something ?
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Last edited by Ridwan; 2013-02-05 at 10:16.
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Old 2013-02-05, 10:16   Link #2967
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Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
Yeah, there's the fresh meat thing. Also, it is being consistent with the current geo-economic trend.

About the evidences, I'll gather as many stuff from Kyo-Ani sometimes later. In the mean time, here's one from Psycho-Pass :


?
Other than using Bahasa (Yes that what people call "Indonesia language" here -_-) is it reference to real product?
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Old 2013-02-05, 10:20   Link #2968
Ridwan
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Originally Posted by RRW View Post
Other than using Bahasa (Yes that what people call "Indonesia language" here -_-) is it reference to real product?
Never heard about "Tjap Ajam". The normal assumption would be they just wondered randomly for something Indonesian (if the aim was that specific) and ran into a picture of a retro product. But who knows.
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Old 2013-02-05, 10:25   Link #2969
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Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
Never heard about "Tjap Ajam". The normal assumption would be they just wondered randomly for something Indonesian (if the aim was that specific) and ran into a picture of a retro product. But who knows.
No, I am more like city boy eventhought I born in "village-city"
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Old 2013-02-05, 10:41   Link #2970
Ridwan
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Originally Posted by RRW View Post
No, I am more like city boy eventhought I born in "village-city"
I never heard about that brand as well.

And now, about those stuff from Nichijou...

Images
pictures
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Spoiler for animated:


The "Beruang" one is just too hardcore a choice for 'foreign' audience, if you ask me.
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Old 2013-02-05, 10:47   Link #2971
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Oh yes that "Salamat Pagi" thing. thought that one is from original source. I heard there is a fight between Malay and Indo for which language is that. Malay or Indo
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Old 2013-02-05, 10:51   Link #2972
Sumeragi
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For Nichijou, those would be original source.
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Old 2013-02-05, 10:57   Link #2973
Ridwan
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"Original source" meaning ?

EDIT : Ah, you mean it's from the 4koma and not Kyo-Ani ? Nevermind then.

It indeed began then.
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Old 2013-02-05, 11:01   Link #2974
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"Original source" meaning ?
the manga

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Old 2013-02-05, 11:05   Link #2975
Ridwan
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Still, "Beruang" is pretty hardcore. As if the author is a weaboo-for-Indonesia. Also, it also confirms that we got this one, my Indonesian brothers! Indon 1 - Malon 0
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Old 2013-02-05, 11:43   Link #2976
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I think that is one of the flaws that came along when we adapted the Japanese ideas of manufacturing and engineering. That single idea of "elimination of unnecessary" combined with "if it ain't broke don't fix it" certainly destroys any infrastructure upgrade proposals.

One thing though, it seems that Japanese companies don't really understand technology. I worked for a couple and they are still using dated POS systems and analog switching for their machines. The latter is the main cause of man-hours lost when a part jammed, you have to reset the entire fucking switchboard AGAIN.
I don't know, I'd say it depends on the company. For instance Toyota is fairly high tech, and it would also be rare with Toyota for the same factory error to occur twice (they put large stock in the 5 whys procedure). My bet would be that the Japanese companies that do have a high understanding of technology are probably doing most of their Asian work in Japan, as they've invested a lot in training up a high quality workforce, which is difficult to duplicate if they outsource.

Quote:
I agree, as a technician. But the Engineer I am under doesn't get it easy - a proposal I made had to be trashed because he made the same proposal 1 year ago, and it is not yet implemented.

Would have went back to being an insurance agent if it was alot more interesting. Money is good, but the job is boring and there is way too much liability held.
I think for internal company dynamics it probably varies from company to company. If we talk about the wider population, though, "Engineer" is a respected profession, while most people will think a technician is little better then their mechanic (and of course, mechanics are under respected too...). Of course, most people don't understand Engineering anyway, because most people will never meet an engineer in their day to day lives (unlike a doctor, lawyer or banker).


Quote:
Actually I would say it is good for the economy because of the money creation process, it puts money in the hands of those who knew how to run these systems themselves instead of pointing fingers at others to run it for them.

And who are these people who knew? Engineers who were hired to program and work the system.
I don't know, I think those engineering grads would be more productive actually designing and making stuff. And as financial services become more and more profitable, more money will go towards them, rather then actual "productive" parts of society.

Also, I think Engineers might be a poor choice to program financial systems, as unlike normal "mechanical risk", "financial risk" cannot be directly mathematically modelled. Mechanical faults can be predicted with a degree of mathematical certainty, but financial faults cannot (if they could be, the financial crisis would never have happened). Banking needs to be more about due diligence, and the likelihoods for a default are often down to difficult to quantify human factors. Their mathematical work gave them a false sense of confidence.
Quote:
And being in a company that adopts the Japanese standards of hierachy makes it worse. The "seniors" are direct entry morons with less than 1 year experience - when shit hits the fan, they are completely clueless : only the sandwich bread knows what is going on and what is required, then due to the lack of knowledge and lingo, communication breaks down in transit from top to bottom.

I think you know the rest.
Something to remember is that Japanese =/= Lean. For instance, a typically "lean" company like Toyota has no strict hierarchy. At a company like Toyota there is only a handful of job titles, and jobs aren't given out based on seniority (so every factory function is done by everyone regardless of how recently they joined the company). The foundation of Toyota's success is in the process of "Continuous improvement", whereby every worker in the company is expected to be on the look out for new ways to improve the industrial process, and the management/engineers did their best to implement that improvement. A strict hierarchy where the opinion of the people at the top overrides those at the bottom would destroy the efficacy of that process.

What you're describing sounds a lot more like how American plants were (and often still are) run, where the guys on the bottom didn't really have any say in how things were run, and were just expected to obey (as they were too "stupid" to do anything else).
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Old 2013-02-05, 12:30   Link #2977
Bri
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I don't know, where I am finance pays consistently more then engineering, and a lot of talent is being funneled into enterprises of dubious productivity (does making trades 5 milliseconds earlier really help people get the products they need or want?). More and more resources seem to be going towards the stock markets rather then the innovative projects the stock market is supposed to help finance.
True it reduces growth in the long term. However, due to worldwide deregulation in recent decades, the financial sector holds a strong bargaining position and can skim quite a bit of the gains of production. In turn it can afford to hire the best and the brightest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Also, I think Engineers might be a poor choice to program financial systems, as unlike normal "mechanical risk", "financial risk" cannot be directly mathematically modelled. Mechanical faults can be predicted with a degree of mathematical certainty, but financial faults cannot (if they could be, the financial crisis would never have happened). Banking needs to be more about due diligence, and the likelihoods for a default are often down to difficult to quantify human factors. Their mathematical work gave them a false sense of confidence.
The way financials have operated would be deadly in engineering as well. Mechanical faults can be calculated but if moral hazard leads to the use of inferior construction materials accidents are bound to happen. The only difference is that faith can sustain markets longer than constructions.
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Old 2013-02-05, 13:17   Link #2978
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Bri View Post
The way financials have operated would be deadly in engineering as well. Mechanical faults can be calculated but if moral hazard leads to the use of inferior construction materials accidents are bound to happen. The only difference is that faith can sustain markets longer than constructions.
Also, if a single building collapses the damage is somewhat limited. Whereas if a vast network of financial products collapse...

Also, if a building collapse, it's easy to point fingers and bring someone to justice. Not so much with a financial product.

I'd say there's a lot less moral hazard in Engineering then in Finance.
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Old 2013-02-05, 23:12   Link #2979
SeijiSensei
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Forty-year-old SDF Secretary Arrested for Stealing Precure Stamps

Quote:
A 40-year-old Japanese Self-Defense Force secretary was arrested in Kōchi City on Monday for allegedly stealing Precure stamps from a convenience store. The suspect allegedly stole the set on Sunday at about 6:15 p.m.

According to the Kōchi police, the suspect said that he liked Precure and had stolen Precure stamps from other stores as well. At the time of his arrest, the unnamed secretary was on leave.
Wow, maybe Japan should consider a pay hike for the Self Defense Forces.
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Old 2013-02-05, 23:45   Link #2980
Ridwan
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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Forty-year-old SDF Secretary Arrested for Stealing Precure Stamps



Wow, maybe Japan should consider a pay hike for the Self Defense Forces.
I think this one belongs to Silly News thread.
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