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Old 2013-02-05, 12:11   Link #2841
Sansker
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Not the point. Magic allows me to tranform my pistol in to a blade if I need one or to use my hammer to launch metalict balls.
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Old 2013-02-05, 12:14   Link #2842
bhl88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Not the point. Magic allows me to tranform my pistol in to a blade if I need one or to use my hammer to launch metalict balls.
So why transform it to a hammer or a blade if they are the same anyway?
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Old 2013-02-05, 12:16   Link #2843
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Sorry for being picky here but, where was that stablished? I think i heard somewhere in StrikerS that Zest and Schach were part of a minority of Ancient Belkan users and that was why they received the title of "Knight" (something unusual for modern Belkan practicioners or at least for those onscreen, Subaru, Ginga and Quint were all Modern Belka practicioners but none of them were classified as "Knights").

Maybe i'm just confused but i would like you were less ambiguous when bringing up stuff like this as a counter-argument xD
StrikerS never talks about Schach's magic, the Japanese wiki pins her as Modern Belka though, so I assume it's in one of the many booklets.

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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
In fact Sieg’s final move is compare in nature to Miura’s attack and Sieg could be an Ancient Belka user.
Can you get some translations on that one? English ones won't be there for a long time.

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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
And no, you can’t fence with a boat oar and you can row with a sword. The oar is just too different in shape, weigh and longitude to be use as a proper sword and the blade is just too small to be use as a way to move the boat.
What you're thinking now? That's exactly what we're trying to communicate to you on the difference between Mid and Belka.

Yes, you can use Mid for melee, but you're practically doing the equivalent of bringing an oar to a swordfight. It can work, but you'll have to work around the fact that the oar just wasn't designed for it.
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Old 2013-02-05, 12:18   Link #2844
Sansker
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Because of the transformations is the same, I can use them to close, long and mid range if I need to. Again, missing the point, like our good friend Lhklan, who is now using not so nice names to refer to me.

I keep saying both styles can be use to fit any situation and are similar in nature. However individual fighters might prefer focusing on some range than others. Those don’t proof the styles are different just that people tend to use different things. I already say why I believe is that but I still keep my point.

The translation is the ViVid chapter 44 in spanish. Miura says Sieg's move is similar to her Bakken thing.

And I do understand your point there Keroko, but I am saying that is not the case between Mid and Belka. They can do the same.
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Old 2013-02-05, 12:18   Link #2845
Rising Dragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Sorry for being picky here but, where was that stablished? I think i heard somewhere in StrikerS that Zest and Schach were part of a minority of Ancient Belkan users and that was why they received the title of "Knight" (something unusual for modern Belkan practicioners or at least for those onscreen, Subaru, Ginga and Quint were all Modern Belka practicioners but none of them were classified as "Knights").

Maybe i'm just confused but i would like you were less ambiguous when bringing up stuff like this as a counter-argument xD
Keep in mind everything that Keroko is saying. Carim is the only practitioner of Ancient Belkan magic in the church. Zest, while presumably one of the few users of Ancient Belkan, was affiliated with the Bureau before being killed and with Jail upon being cloned, and not with the church.
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Old 2013-02-05, 12:20   Link #2846
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Because of the transformations is the same, I can use them to close, long and mid range if I need to. Again, missing the point, like our good friend Lhklan, who is now using not so nice names to refer to me.

I keep saying both styles can be use to fit any situation and are similar in nature. However individual fighters might prefer focusing on some range than others. Those don’t proof the styles are different just that people tend to use different things. I already say why I believe is that but I still keep my point.
So yes they are the same, and you don't really need the rest anyway since you can use them at any range either way.

@Raising: its not some guarded secret?
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Old 2013-02-05, 12:25   Link #2847
Sansker
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You can use the styles at any range but the devices default looking not always works on all situations I will give it that much.
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Old 2013-02-05, 12:27   Link #2848
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
And I do understand your point there Keroko, but I am saying that is not the case between Mid and Belka. They can do the same.
Your definition of "they can do the same" is vague as hell though. I can hit people in melee with an oar too. Doesn't mean I should choose an oar over a sword when fighting someone.

The simple fact that many people who go into melee actively choose belka for the very reason that it's better in close combat proves this. Melee mid users are a minority for a reason. Belka is just better at it.
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Old 2013-02-05, 12:29   Link #2849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Your definition of "they can do the same" is vague as hell though. I can hit people in melee with an oar too. Doesn't mean I should choose an oar over a sword when fighting someone.

The simple fact that many people who go into melee actively choose belka for the very reason that it's better in close combat proves this. Melee mid users are a minority for a reason. Belka is just better at it.
It's almost like Renewal in RO where each class can do nearly what all classes can do...
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Old 2013-02-05, 12:31   Link #2850
Lhklan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Because of the transformations is the same, I can use them to close, long and mid range if I need to. Again, missing the point, like our good friend Lhklan, who is now using not so nice names to refer to me.

I keep saying both styles can be use to fit any situation and are similar in nature. However individual fighters might prefer focusing on some range than others. Those don’t proof the styles are different just that people tend to use different things. I already say why I believe is that but I still keep my point.

The translation is the ViVid chapter 44 in spanish. Miura says Sieg's move is similar to her Bakken thing.

And I do understand your point there Keroko, but I am saying that is not the case between Mid and Belka. They can do the same.
Because you're being one? I mean, it's what, 5-6 pages since this whole thing started. Everyone keep trying to convince you otherwise, but you kept clinging on to some very flimsy analogy.

I'll say this again: Yes, they can be used in any situation, but their nature forced them to be more suited to one thing compare to the other: Close range for Belkan and Long range for Mid. That alone is a big different.

Another to look at it is like this: Take a look at this list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_swords. They're all swords, and they all share the basic design with minor difference: A blade, a guard and a grip. But here, they're all classified as different types. Why? Because they're different. Some are more suited to stabbing - a rapier or an épée for example - while some focus more on the slashing aspect - scimitar or Dao. Many are used against infantry, but some are used against cavalry.

A
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Old 2013-02-05, 12:34   Link #2851
Sansker
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Ok, so putting aside you change the idea behind the oar and sword analogy we were using so now it has nothing to do what we say before, I still believe the argument doesn’t hold to proof me wrong.

Like I say the differences between how both styles are use is just a cultural thing and not in the systems themselves. Look at Miura for that matter: good close range combat and she uses Mid-Childa. You insisted Belka is best as close range and Mid at long range but I can see both archive good results in close and long range attacks. That is why I stop to think that the simple difference of one for close combat and the other from distance was really what can tell them apart.
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Old 2013-02-05, 13:40   Link #2852
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Your definition of "they can do the same" is vague as hell though. I can hit people in melee with an oar too. Doesn't mean I should choose an oar over a sword when fighting someone.

The simple fact that many people who go into melee actively choose belka for the very reason that it's better in close combat proves this. Melee mid users are a minority for a reason. Belka is just better at it.
This brings to mind Disgaea, actually...

You can have everyone learn how to use various magics and weapons (outside of unique skills).

However, a fist fighter is always going to be much better at punching things than shooting things with a gun.
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Old 2013-02-05, 14:05   Link #2853
Sansker
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But that is a difference because of the person, not the power itself. All I am saying is that both styles are similar, can do pretty much the same but for other reasons have been stuck in to short and long range attacks. Is just something that happen over time but that in the end I consider them to be too much alike to really talk about both being too different.
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Old 2013-02-05, 14:14   Link #2854
Rising Dragon
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Yeah, that's what happens when you run on your own logic and refuse to acknowledge reality. You've made it clear you're not going to see any reason from anyone else.
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Old 2013-02-05, 17:01   Link #2855
Sansker
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And yet I haven't insult anyone here.
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Old 2013-02-05, 19:00   Link #2856
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Just an fyi, Sansker, I'll share a one of my little rules of thumb: If I find myself in a position where I believe something, and everyone else around believes the exact opposite... well, I tend to check myself and consider that, maybe, just maybe, I might be the one who is thinking incorrectly.

So let me ask you some questions:
1. Is there something you are good at?
2. Is there something you are bad at?
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Old 2013-02-05, 19:51   Link #2857
Justin_Brett
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Why are you still trying to use logic against a guy who said Kiritsugu was a bland character because he was stoic, while having freaking Ulquiorra in his signature?
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Old 2013-02-05, 20:10   Link #2858
Sansker
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Because now this is going off topic?

Guys this was never about me. If we have to go by the logic that what is most accepted is the one and only truth then there is not even a point on having personal opinion. You now take this beyond my arguments and is about me being insane. How we come down to this?

Kaijo, this is not my personal thread where you all talk about me, keep this to the main subject. So far this is Belka and Mid-Childa magic being similar in nature. You all have good arguments why they can be consider different and I can agree to you at some of those points. I am not here to change all your minds but to share and have a rational discussion. Your arguments are there and I listen but still I do not consider them to be absolute or to make me change my mind. I will keep saying it Belka and Mid-Childa are similar in nature.
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Old 2013-02-05, 20:14   Link #2859
Rising Dragon
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Personal opinion is fine and all, but if you constantly spew something that is factually incorrect, and proven to be incorrect, then others should and will correct it, if not for your benefit, then for other uninformed members who come here for information.

So if you're going to constantly spew "my logic supercedes everything," then you should expect to have others try and correct you.
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Old 2013-02-05, 20:24   Link #2860
Sansker
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No, again, no about correcting. You are taking this the wrong way, act really aggressive in what should be a calm exchange of ideas. Just because you disagree doesn't mean is wrong and just because others think different means you need to have a generic and equal way to see the series. Diversity is what makes a forum interesting.

And again we are taking this to where it doesn't need to go. This was about Mid and Belka magic, add something to that discussion or ask to change subject. So, to make our lives simple, I am going to jus say this:

I still stand by my idea that mid-Childa and Belkan magic are, in their core, similar and not different and you guys think different. An agreement or even a rational conversation is impossible so I say lets move on and talk about something else.
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