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Old 2013-02-05, 18:32   Link #1121
ReaperxKingx
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[QUOTE=Dominic Night;4543176]Funny thing, just because Its not shown doesn't mean it don't happen. They CAN die, we just don't hear about it because we focus on Issei.

We don't hear that another game takes place and the teleportation device failed to rescue a person in time because the attack, hit, and damage inflicted were too fast and their head rolls off. Want to know why? Because Issei isn't there.



Full-blood Devil's are dying out. The things thare are coming out are nothing more than half-breeds (Half-human, half-angel, etc.). If I was a full-blood devil, I won't see beings that are being re-incarnated back as actual devils.


[QUOTE]
And Ise wasn't trying to kill her. He just didn't hold back.
Quote:

If he wasn't trying to kill her than he wouldn't have pulled out an illegal move that would've been a sure to kill. No matter how much emotions are running through him, Akeno was defeated not killed while he went off to use an attack that would've killed someone else.



What I read, Issei is more upset that he "revealed a super secret move" than near killing someone. I don't see any 'I feel bad because I nearly killed someone due to my emotions.' its more 'Damn, I pulled this move out and showed how dangerous it is, its shown to the world now '

====



So If I warn someone to put up a defense as strong as they can while I blast an attack that would've killed them is NOT attempted murder? That's wrong, why because it did kill someone regardless of warning



Would you listen to an enemy telling you what they want you to do?

The girl was lucky he pulled her out. But that doesn't excuse what Issei tried to do.


Thinking about it, I'm sure Issei wouldn't even recieve a slap on the wrist for committing murder in public.


Though I say Ise lost his emotions, but it seems like you are condemning Ise for a relatively simple thing in these games. In a rating game, yes people do die if hit with an offensive power that is a one hit fatality. The retire system cannot react fast enough to take them out before the attack hit. It is the responsibility of Kings to ensure the safety of their servants even forfeiting the match is okay which is what Sairaorg did. We've already seen some abnormal things in rating like draining blood out of opponents and limbs getting chopped out is quite normal in them. As an opponent in a rating game, you never take your opponent lightly which was what Abaddon did and even push Ise to perform his best.

Remember the rating games is a sport in the Underworld, somewhat like the Roman Coliseum in Rome back in their day except the fatality rate is very very low. Be sure to read the volume of the fight before making judgement or condemn someone for it. Majority or if all the races there present found nothing wrong with the decision indicating that death was very unlikely especially since this is Sairaorg's Queen in combat with many sponsors and supporters with him, if they felt that Abaddon was in danger of her life more than likely yes there will be complaints but there wasn't.

Your reasoning that reincarnated Devils wouldn't be considered be consider full Devils if you were a Pure Devil is very shallow thinking and seems to be in favor of what the descendants of the actual original Maou consider. The society in the Underworld is seeing worth in the reincarnated Devil and laws are now being change or will be change to balance out the social system.

Wow that quote is messed up on that comment.
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Old 2013-02-05, 18:34   Link #1122
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I like the idea to the rating game. Creating a team sounds fun. But having people die in it isnt good :/ . I've read in medievil Jousting, they had deaths on rare occaions. But thats really called being unlucky, not based on power.

As for Akeno loosing, it described her as a S-grade queen in the begining of the novel, but thats teh 2nd Queen vs Queen one on one battle shes lost O_o. Shes getting dominated by other Queens. As for Issies intent to kill, I dont really know if he realized it or not. I am more suprised Sairaorg came out and said he could of killed her. Sairaorg really had won that game, its just that he continued on for the fans and game's spectical.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperxKingx View Post
Some attacks are instant kills, the retirement system cannot work with instant kills. Ise's full attack would been an instant kill. Hence why Rias and the Gremory group are going to have a hard time with future rating games because they have offensive power is off the charts that the rating game would have to restrict so much of their power to ensure that the Gremory group would not kill anyone. Rias, Ise, and the rest of the Gremory group are better suited to be front line soldiers than playing mock battles with other Devils.
Sounds messed up. You really wouldnt want to compete anymore knowing if you could accidently kill the weaker people :/ I'd hate to think Sairaorg Queen died that match. Since hes just on the verge of begining his career.
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Old 2013-02-05, 18:41   Link #1123
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^Dominic apparently you have a problem with Ises fighting style.
If I understand the rating game system correctly it was meant to teach devils battle experience and stratagie because they didn't want to lose there "touch". I believe it was in book 5 Azazal also complemented the devils with this because their young devils were very well trained against the chaos brigade.

Coming back to the dying part, normally there are rules that make the chance of dying as low as possible. In the match between gremory and beal, the beal side asked for these rules to be removed. Because they wanted to face al the power.
Second the queen was baiting Ise to use his full power. See quote.
Quote:
Sekiryuutei, get into Balance Breaker. My master Sairaorg-sama wishes to see you become serious. Then I, his [Queen] have to make that wish true.]
Thirdly Ises full strength doesn't always kill instantly it depends on the opponent.
Fourth Ise is young seeing his comrades getting hurt. Ofcourse he gets angry andhe doesn't have experience yet to control his anger.

Last this part is one ofmy favourite passages in the series, but that is just my opinion.
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Old 2013-02-05, 22:12   Link #1124
sky black swordman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velsy View Post
As for Akeno loosing, it described her as a S-grade queen in the begining of the novel, but thats teh 2nd Queen vs Queen one on one battle shes lost O_o. Shes getting dominated by other Queens. As for Issies intent to kill, I dont really know if he realized it or not. I am more suprised Sairaorg came out and said he could of killed her. Sairaorg really had won that game, its just that he continued on for the fans and game's spectical.
IMO, the reason that Akeno loss was because opponent had much combat experience and skill than Akeno. I also think that she may have let her guard down and believing that Abaddon's ‘hole’ ability could only absorb her power. Those were not only reasons Sairaorg wanted to continued the game, He wanted to a one on one fight with Ise the Sekiryuutei. Remember he was even upset that Regulus gave Rias an injury that would have forced her to retire and end the game. Sairaorg is a bit like Vail, they both love to fight strong opponents.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wysth View Post
Coming back to the dying part, normally there are rules that make the chance of dying as low as possible. In the match between gremory and beal, the beal side asked for these rules to be removed. Because they wanted to face al the power.
Second the queen was baiting Ise to use his full power. See quote.
She kind of did bait him and even after Ise had warned her and she blow off his warning:

Quote:
[……..I can’t hold back. If you don’t want to die, put all your strength into defending. If you do that, then you will be able to retire safely.]

[You sure talk big. Very well. I will also stop you with my full power. Whether it’s the Sekiryuutei, for master I will--]
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Old 2013-02-05, 22:36   Link #1125
rickiminato
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guys, what kind of new powers will have isei?
any ideas, maybe a new balance breaker or a new armor
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Old 2013-02-05, 22:58   Link #1126
ReaperxKingx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickiminato View Post
guys, what kind of new powers will have isei?
any ideas, maybe a new balance breaker or a new armor
Dragon powers, after all the spoiler clearly stated that he blew away a Magician while at full strength defense barrier with a single punch with his Dragon arm without Ddraig's assistance. I expect Ise to gain Dragon powers of his own, must as well see what his body of the dream and infinite can do.
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Old 2013-02-05, 23:03   Link #1127
cyberdemon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickiminato View Post
guys, what kind of new powers will have isei?
any ideas, maybe a new balance breaker or a new armor
There was also talks of trying to turn the dividing powers he took from DD and turning them into a sub species.
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Old 2013-02-05, 23:31   Link #1128
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Triana its NOT ILLEGAL since he can use freely, check Vol 8: Gremory Fun SS, Adjuka says it could be, but they will allow to see more interesting developments things on the arena, logic says other Rating Game participants see that battle and they will start tactics, movements and strategics to counter, and about Bael Queen, certainly Isse was piss off but still warn the girl, only Sairaorg, maybe cuz they spar before knew Isse wasn't joking or bluffing about raise all defends and that's why he forcefully withdrawn his queen, even Kiba on the battle says just sparring with Ise its dread to loss his life during the practice, if you see Ise after losing against Sitri he changed to blown quickest possible the foe to reduce damages.
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Old 2013-02-05, 23:59   Link #1129
cyberdemon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimurry View Post
Triana its NOT ILLEGAL since he can use freely, check Vol 8: Gremory Fun SS, Adjuka says it could be, but they will allow to see more interesting developments things on the arena, logic says other Rating Game participants see that battle and they will start tactics, movements and strategics to counter, and about Bael Queen, certainly Isse was piss off but still warn the girl, only Sairaorg, maybe cuz they spar before knew Isse wasn't joking or bluffing about raise all defends and that's why he forcefully withdrawn his queen, even Kiba on the battle says just sparring with Ise its dread to loss his life during the practice, if you see Ise after losing against Sitri he changed to blown quickest possible the foe to reduce damages.
Actually he isn't allowed to use Triana during RG since it breaks the rule imposed on other pawns that they need to be in enemy territory. Sairaorg's match was an exception because Sairaorg was willing to allow him to use it. He can probably use it while under enemy territory as long as pawn rules are observed but there actually hasn't been anything seen or said about that yet.
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Old 2013-02-06, 00:20   Link #1130
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I am really liking the idea that Ise develops his own Dragon powers. He is currently dependent on Ddraig's power and as well his pawn piece, which is not bad but compared to his rivals like Vali and Sairaorg which use their own strengths and attributes, he is quite behind.
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Old 2013-02-06, 00:30   Link #1131
Chimurry
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Originally Posted by cyberdemon View Post
Actually he isn't allowed to use Triana during RG since it breaks the rule imposed on other pawns that they need to be in enemy territory. Sairaorg's match was an exception because Sairaorg was willing to allow him to use it. He can probably use it while under enemy territory as long as pawn rules are observed but there actually hasn't been anything seen or said about that yet.
Well, every Game set their own rules, so based on this, even BB from Ise, Kiba or others could be not allowed, not drink Ise blood, not heavy collaterals and keep going, so we talk about Gremory vs Bael, technically Rias was there and the pawns are allowed to promotion in the territory recognize as enemy ground by their King, its not really like after 20ths yard like footbal or other team zone, its wheres Rias say so.
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Old 2013-02-06, 04:24   Link #1132
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All SG are rule breakers to begin with... yet Ise's trident tops them all...
He can change into a rook, knight, bishop or queen even without stepping into the enemy territory.
His transformation is also reversible
In chess the promotion of the pawn is irreversible and isn't that also the same in the rating game?
And it wouldn't be called an Illegal move trident if it is not illegal...
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Old 2013-02-06, 05:02   Link #1133
Chimurry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeutralZero View Post
All SG are rule breakers to begin with... yet Ise's trident tops them all...
He can change into a rook, knight, bishop or queen even without stepping into the enemy territory.
His transformation is also reversible
In chess the promotion of the pawn is irreversible and isn't that also the same in the rating game?
And it wouldn't be called an Illegal move trident if it is not illegal...
Is according the Game rules, is called "Illegal move" cuz don't need Rias approval or being on Enemy Territory, but in the encounter vs Bael was Legal, Rias was there with Ise and wasn't take enemy flags or kind of thing, it was members elimination, the game rules was open (no special rules or restrictions like they have against Sitri), only basics, so that's why I say "technically" wasn't Illegal, on the other way its like you say, could be games could only allow one promotion, as far I know of the entire LN Ise could promote and reverse and promote again on the same or different piece, so I can say the basics rules allow that.
About deaths: on rating games it happen, that's why Rias surrender her encounter against Raiser, remember he menace to burnout Ise and calling "accident", on the Devils Social Class examinations are forbidden, even "accident" (Vol 11 reference).
So its like someone ready say: Its under your own risk, if you want glory you have to pay the price, speak of: the fight in the Middle Class Examinations, the guy against Gremory Group came at first with all strenght cuz they know Ise, Akeno and Kiba are dreadful opponents, still on the comments when Ise sent flying and K.O. the other guy with one punch, the rest just say: "Bad Luck".
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Old 2013-02-06, 06:39   Link #1134
sky black swordman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimurry View Post
Is according the Game rules, is called "Illegal move" cuz don't need Rias approval or being on Enemy Territory, but in the encounter vs Bael was Legal, Rias was there with Ise and wasn't take enemy flags or kind of thing, it was members elimination, the game rules was open (no special rules or restrictions like they have against Sitri), only basics, so that's why I say "technically" wasn't Illegal, on the other way its like you say, could be games could only allow one promotion, as far I know of the entire LN Ise could promote and reverse and promote again on the same or different piece, so I can say the basics rules allow that.
About deaths: on rating games it happen, that's why Rias surrender her encounter against Raiser, remember he menace to burnout Ise and calling "accident", on the Devils Social Class examinations are forbidden, even "accident" (Vol 11 reference).
So its like someone ready say: Its under your own risk, if you want glory you have to pay the price, speak of: the fight in the Middle Class Examinations, the guy against Gremory Group came at first with all strenght cuz they know Ise, Akeno and Kiba are dreadful opponents, still on the comments when Ise sent flying and K.O. the other guy with one punch, the rest just say: "Bad Luck".
That's anime canon and not LN canon. That kind of threat would not have been made by him in the LN. Don't forget that Rias and Raiser families were also watching the RG between them. He verbally admitted his intention on killing Ise, so him killing Ise and calling it an "accident" would not have been believed by no one. Had he made and followed through with it would have led to serious consequence for Raiser regardless of his status as High class devil for possibly murdering a servant of a family member of a Maou family.

It is highly likely that Rias family would have been angered this action and would have broken of the engagement.
The Phoenix family would have understood why they are breaking off the engagement.
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Last edited by sky black swordman; 2013-02-06 at 06:56.
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Old 2013-02-06, 07:04   Link #1135
n0m@n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky black swordman View Post
That's anime canon and not LN canon. That kind of threat would not have been made by him in the LN. Don't forget that Rias and Raiser families were also watching the RG between them. He verbally admitted his intention on killing Ise, so him killing Ise and calling it an "accident" would not have been believed by no one. Had he made and followed through with it would have led to serious consequence for Raiser regardless of his status as High class devil for possibly murdering a servant of a family member of a Maou family.

It is highly likely that Rias family would have been angered this action and would have broken of the engagement.
The Phoenix family would have understood why they are breaking off the engagement.
The anime certainly did change a lot about that Rating Game between Rias and Raiser.
Now, I cant see the anime covering the short story The Unresurrected Phoenix even if they the anime does season 3 or 4.
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Old 2013-02-06, 07:31   Link #1136
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Thing with a anime is you can just put so much into it , even though you wish to have everything following the LN to make it as close as possible it just not possible , there are thing in a LN you have to explain in order for people to understand , when it come to anime you wont need it since it visual ..
Quote:
The anime certainly did change a lot about that Rating Game between Rias and Raiser.
Now, I cant see the anime covering the short story The Unresurrected Phoenix even if they the anime does season 3 or 4.
i also think they wont it would probably take too much episode for them to do so , atleast that what i think if they are trying to covers 2 volumes like they did with season 1 of the anime
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Old 2013-02-06, 12:28   Link #1137
cyberdemon
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Originally Posted by Chimurry View Post
Is according the Game rules, is called "Illegal move" cuz don't need Rias approval or being on Enemy Territory, but in the encounter vs Bael was Legal, Rias was there with Ise and wasn't take enemy flags or kind of thing, it was members elimination, the game rules was open (no special rules or restrictions like they have against Sitri), only basics, so that's why I say "technically" wasn't Illegal, on the other way its like you say, could be games could only allow one promotion, as far I know of the entire LN Ise could promote and reverse and promote again on the same or different piece, so I can say the basics rules allow that.
About deaths: on rating games it happen, that's why Rias surrender her encounter against Raiser, remember he menace to burnout Ise and calling "accident", on the Devils Social Class examinations are forbidden, even "accident" (Vol 11 reference).
So its like someone ready say: Its under your own risk, if you want glory you have to pay the price, speak of: the fight in the Middle Class Examinations, the guy against Gremory Group came at first with all strenght cuz they know Ise, Akeno and Kiba are dreadful opponents, still on the comments when Ise sent flying and K.O. the other guy with one punch, the rest just say: "Bad Luck".
The Bael match was special because Sairaorg WANTED it to be fine. He didn't want anything but the strongest from Ise. It's highly unlikely that anyone else would be willing to give them such a big advantage.
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Old 2013-02-06, 13:38   Link #1138
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Reaper-
Spoiler for Snipping:


I am condemning him because he should've known that this a 'game-match'. If Akeno was nearly killed or was killed it would've been justified for his emotions, however that wasn't the case. And he goes over the deep-end KNOWING that this isn't a battle to the death and goes out to try and kill someone else just because they won. And it doesn't appear that she was underestimating Issei.

If he truly wants be 'king' or 'strongest-pawn', than he should know that his comrades CAN and WILL be defeated in battle. And part of that is he must KNOW self-restraint, if he can't hold back and try kill someone just because they showed their better against his friends. He isn't really worthy to take part of these games because he would be a straight up murderer anyone who dear show that they can beat his comrades in a fair match. This takes me back to point A. These Rating 'Games' are stupid because things like these can happen more often than one can believe.

On the race thing, I honestly don't know how to respond without sounding racist. But imagine one full fledge being having an ability others don't, and half-breeds aren't capable of using that said ability because DNA/genes aren't there (Replaced by whatever the other race is.). Eventually the full-fledge race dies down, and thing they can do dies with them.

(If you take one thing and start mix it with others, you gain something, but also lose something. If you keep mixing the thing that once was no longer exist, its dead. One would think that its okay, but than one ability would be lost because of the difference. What makes one thing them, them. It will nolonger exist and uniquiness is lost.)

==
Wysth-
Spoiler for snipping:


Another thing is, there are always another way to prove one ability and gain/keep experience. Waving blades and energy attacks at eachother is one of the more stupid ways of 'keeping touch' They could aways do something like meassuring powerlevels instead of launching it at eachother.

And just because the restrictions were uplifted doesn't give you the okay to try and kill someone.

You are making it sound like its not okay to bait someone in battle, this is the standard type tactic to cause the enemy to slip up and make a move that will work against them. She used this and it basically worked, doesn't mean she deserved to be nearly killed.

He pulled out a move that will instantly vaporize his oppenent, without a chance for them to be 'rescued' by the safety system. This move is a sure kill if it landed.

And that part is where he NEEDS TO GROW UP. If he's going to be an emotionally reck and try to kill someone when they defeat a comrade in a match than he shouldn't bother being part of thse 'games'. (Repeating myself)


===
Chimurry-
Spoiler for snipping:


The move is one that CAN kill someone, and they participating in a 'game'. Think of it as playing a paintball match and someone brings a REAL gun. That is a danger to everyone in the match which your not trying to kill someone else but beat them in battle. Just because you can use the move freely doesn't make it legal. Again think about a paintball match, someone brings in a real gun but doesn't use it.

--

And most of the argument I had in mind is now gone...
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Old 2013-02-06, 14:07   Link #1139
Darth SpiderDen
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Dominic, I think the main problem here is that you are comparing the Rating Game with the games from the real world.
In the LN, the Rating Game was created in a time before the alliance, when there was a truce between the powers but no real peace among them. The Devils, to not loose their battle prowess created this to allow young devils a "simulation" of real battle: of course even though they made a system to allow one to go full power and still not kill the opponent, the system is not flawless and Ise's power in the volume this happens was too much for Abaddon to withstand and for the system to recover her before the killing blow was delt.
I'm sure that in future RG battles, with the professional, attacks of that scale are common and they are not considered one-hit kills. It was one-hit kill for Abaddon, that's for sure.
Besides, are you forgetting Sairaorgs attacks on Ise after his Balance Breaker that punched a hole in him? Why not condemn him?
Your logic does not apply to the universe of the LN, it's a fantasy, go with it and enjoy the ride.
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Old 2013-02-06, 14:25   Link #1140
sky black swordman
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Like I have said before, Ise warned her and even told what she need to do if she wanted to retire safely. She disregard his warning and choose to take on Ise's attack. And another thing is that was not just he was only taking out his hostility and emotions just for seeing Akeno being defeated, but for all the memeber that were defeated as well. You don't think that Ise was pissed about not being able to do nothing but watch Gasper being beat and somewhat tortured by Sairaorg [Rook] who had turned into a dragon.
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