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Old 2013-02-04, 08:16   Link #1241
s07195
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Well, this episode was good. I liked how they presented Gateway City.
--
On an off-topic issue, I spend so much time watching previous seasons (where most the threads are pretty dead already) and adapted material that I think I've forgotten how to do an anime-only discussion.

So I'll leave my post on this.
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Old 2013-02-04, 09:58   Link #1242
Leo Keichi
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Hey, it's been ages since my last post here in the forum. Not that I ever was an avid poster, anyway. Well, I've been so busy lately that I don't have the time to slack around on the internet anymore.

I started watching this series last week, and found it better than the average, so I think I'll stick to it. Really liked the ED, I'll see if I can find it on iTunes.
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Old 2013-02-04, 19:45   Link #1243
zRichard
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
This is a world where demons and humans are at war, but our demon queen looks exactly like a human. The relationship between the hero and the demon queen is exactly like a relationship between humans. For me this raises the question of why even introduce “demons” as a part of this world. The story could have done just fine with a war between two warring nations. The way it is setup now feels pointless.

Another issue here is the depth of knowledge the Demon Queen apparently possesses. The explanation for the war never really ending at the beginning was because either side would collapse economically after the war and it was more profitable to keep it going. Well if the Demon Queen really had such great knowledge, wouldn’t this problem for the demons not exist? Furthermore, they would possess superior economic capabilities and the war shouldn’t even be this close. This breaks my suspension of belief.

If this show simply wanted to show off some the basic economic advances of past centuries, the integration of such concepts could be more gracefully done than what we are seeing here so far. Right now the Demon Queen is basically moving the plot forward by introducing new socio-economic ideas, one after the other without establishing how she came to those ideas at all. So far I see no reason for the main character’s presence in this story since the Demon Queen seems to have all the answers.

Not to mention that the severe pacing issues make it difficult to invest in this since too much happens too fast without anytime to feel out the setting, plot, or characters. I really would love to like this show, but I can't see it as anything more than just an altogether terrible production.

Most of your complaints on the scenario fall moot because either

1) It's already been addressed in the show and you either missed or ignored the exposition (Why winning the war would be very bad for both sides).
2) It's a plot point (Why so much knowledge. With such a Mary Sue, there's no need for Hero).
3) Not true (No character development. Too much of fanservice)

Still, it's understandable that you got here thinking like this. It was wrong to hype this show as S&W3.
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Old 2013-02-05, 19:43   Link #1244
Dark Wing
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Originally Posted by HandofFate View Post
with the maou having access to potatoes, corn, compass, gunpowder, science and who knows what else, why hasn't the demon side won the war?

With tech. centuries ahead you think they have a huge advantage.
The knowledge that Maou has is only known by her clan and they only distribute it as need because it helps them keep their hold over the demon world.
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Old 2013-02-05, 19:56   Link #1245
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by zRichard View Post
Most of your complaints on the scenario fall moot because either

1) It's already been addressed in the show and you either missed or ignored the exposition (Why winning the war would be very bad for both sides).
2) It's a plot point (Why so much knowledge. With such a Mary Sue, there's no need for Hero).
3) Not true (No character development. Too much of fanservice)

Still, it's understandable that you got here thinking like this. It was wrong to hype this show as S&W3.
Reckoner’s complain about the pacing issues is spot on though. The pacing of this anime is quite bad (if not terrible).
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Old 2013-02-05, 20:23   Link #1246
Marcus H.
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Reckoner’s complain about the pacing issues is spot on though. The pacing of this anime is quite bad (if not terrible).
As an anime-only viewer, I disagree. Besides, you need twice or thrice as many episodes to make the story of Maoyuu smoother, and very few anime series have the privilege of getting more than one cour for a series broadcast. Honestly, they're doing a good job in taking out what is not important and keeping the core of the series.
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Old 2013-02-05, 20:42   Link #1247
Reckoner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
As an anime-only viewer, I disagree. Besides, you need twice or thrice as many episodes to make the story of Maoyuu smoother, and very few anime series have the privilege of getting more than one cour for a series broadcast. Honestly, they're doing a good job in taking out what is not important and keeping the core of the series.
This is a poor excuse for the story's faults. To me this series isn't doing a good job at making the setting believable, or getting the audience invested in its characters (I know boobs right).

Quote:
Originally Posted by zRichard View Post
Most of your complaints on the scenario fall moot because either

1) It's already been addressed in the show and you either missed or ignored the exposition (Why winning the war would be very bad for both sides).
2) It's a plot point (Why so much knowledge. With such a Mary Sue, there's no need for Hero).
3) Not true (No character development. Too much of fanservice)

Still, it's understandable that you got here thinking like this. It was wrong to hype this show as S&W3.
I explained why this scenario seems highly contrived and breaks my suspension of belief. If you don't want to give the respect of actually addressing the points I raise, I suggest not responding at all to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
Reckoner: To explain the weird advanced knowledge the Maou possesses in detail is a massive spoiler. I think I mentioned what the place is called in passing a page or so back though.

In any other case I would say that all things will be explained in time, but with how the series is paced, I can't say it will be explained in a way that won't come as terribly contrived.
It doesn't really matter if they explain where she got the information at this point because as you said, it would just come off as terribly contrived. This is something that should have been addressed from the very beginning instead of speeding along like they have.

I'm sure the source material is different and all, but I am talking about the anime, not the source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I don’t mean to defend the faulty of this anime. Just want to address this one.

The short answer to that question is: Maou wants both demons and humans to live in peace and harmony.

The long answer: It’s not that easy to make her ideal world come true even with all the knowledge she has. Even her knowledge is quite limited (she’s not an all-knowing and god-like being, you know). In fact, what she’s doing now has been carefully planned by her for years (any more details will be spoiler-ish). Furthermore, like what’s already been explained in eps 1: before the war, the demon world had succumbed to civil wars for years. It’s not like her knowledge alone can deal with clan disputes. It’s already tough for her to keep it together as is. But now, with the help of Hero’s super-OP-power, there’s more hope to end the conflicts. On top of that, the war between demons and humans started a long time ago before she even became King and continues on. So, if she to use her knowledge after she became King and then demon world wins and humans got obliterated, that means she fails to make her “dream” come true. She simply doesn’t want that.
Why does she want that? She's a demon, not a human. Why in the world would she wish for that? This is why I questioned introducing demons as part of this world. It seems that in this world that the demons only act like demons when it suits the story. Otherwise they seem to be going for a "demons are humans too!" approach, which is completely stupid. What the hell was the point of making them demons if they don't act like demons. Any sort of compromise between humans and demons would then be like between humans.

Even if you push aside the pacing issues, and the lack of explanation for her knowledge, this problem still persists.
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Old 2013-02-05, 21:14   Link #1248
zRichard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
TI explained why this scenario seems highly contrived and breaks my suspension of belief. If you don't want to give the respect of actually addressing the points I raise, I suggest not responding at all to me.
Get down of your horse. I did say that you need to rewatch the exposition you missed and read spoilers on the things that were not explained yet. You should also keep in mind that the whole setting is based on the Dragon Quest games.

Still, reading the rest of your comment it's pretty clear that you are not part of the target audience. You are asking stuff that's been explicitly shown in the early episodes and I'm not going to spell out every little detail of the world building here just because you don't feel like working out the show.
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Old 2013-02-05, 21:22   Link #1249
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
As an anime-only viewer, I disagree. Besides, you need twice or thrice as many episodes to make the story of Maoyuu smoother, and very few anime series have the privilege of getting more than one cour for a series broadcast. Honestly, they're doing a good job in taking out what is not important and keeping the core of the series.
Your own reply (the bolded parts) cemented my point even further . And I agree with Reckoner about this. Lacking in episodes is unrelated in presenting a good pacing of story. Without good pacing, it'll be difficult for the audience to be invested in the story and characters regardless of the material. It's the studio itself who decides how much material they would adapt each episode and how they execute it after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Why does she want that? She's a demon, not a human. Why in the world would she wish for that? This is why I questioned introducing demons as part of this world. It seems that in this world that the demons only act like demons when it suits the story. Otherwise they seem to be going for a "demons are humans too!" approach, which is completely stupid. What the hell was the point of making them demons if they don't act like demons. Any sort of compromise between humans and demons would then be like between humans.

Even if you push aside the pacing issues, and the lack of explanation for her knowledge, this problem still persists.
Well, at this point in the anime, you just have to accept that she’s a “kind” demon who’s not wishing for bloodbath and conquer given her wisdom due to having vast knowledge of what was actually happened out there. That’s just her character to desire peace (it’s also something related to her clan but anymore about this will be spoiler-ish). I should also address that the demon world is pretty much a “barbaric” world where power = righteousness. You are right as long as you have the power to back it up (Demon Girl also addressed that in the latest episode). So yeah, like you said, demons are not all bad, just like humans. Many of those demons are just simple creatures with great power. Some of them are smart enough to come up with strategy, become a general and lead a vast army, but once again, they use their intelligence mostly for fighting and dominating (hence civil wars in demon world). That’s why Hero’s fighting prowess is a great help for Maou to return order in the demon world during her absence by making him her representative. Btw, Maou become King of Demons after she received the “seal of king” which she already showed in the first episode (kinda like “command spell” in Fate/Zero) even if she’s not the uber-strongest demon. That seal has been passed for generations of Demon Kings so that thing is kinda absolute for the demon world and almost no questions asked about its receiver.

PS: Anybody is welcomed to correct me if I'm wrong .
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Old 2013-02-05, 21:36   Link #1250
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Well, at this point in the anime, you just have to accept that she’s a “kind” demon who’s not wishing for bloodbath and conquer given her wisdom due to having vast knowledge of what was actually happened out there. That’s just her character to desire peace (it’s also something related to her clan but anymore about this will be spoiler-ish). I should also address that the demon world is pretty much a “barbaric” world where power = righteousness. You are right as long as you have the power to back it up (Demon Girl also addressed that in the latest episode). So yeah, like you said, demons are not all bad, just like humans. Many of those demons are just simple creatures with great power. Some of them are smart enough to come up with strategy, become a general and lead a vast army, but once again, they use their intelligence mostly for fighting and dominating (hence civil wars in demon world). That’s why Hero’s fighting prowess is a great help for Maou to return order in the demon world during her absence by making him her representative. Btw, Maou become King of Demons after she received the “seal of king” which she already showed in the first episode (kinda like “command spell” in Fate/Zero) even if she’s not the uber-strongest demon. That seal has been passed for generations of Demon Kings so that thing is kinda absolute for the demon world and almost no questions asked about its receiver.
It's a big ask for me personally because it calls into question the very construction of the setting. If people are willing to suspend their belief for this, great. I have not been convinced to do so at this point for the given reasons.

A lot of the other details you're talking about though are not adequately addressed by the anime, so it's basically irrelevant to me. I imagine the source material is much more detailed, and perhaps this adaption is merely poor, but that is not what I'm evaluating here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zRichard View Post
Get down of your horse. I did say that you need to rewatch the exposition you missed and read spoilers on the things that were not explained yet. You should also keep in mind that the whole setting is based on the Dragon Quest games.

Still, reading the rest of your comment it's pretty clear that you are not part of the target audience. You are asking stuff that's been explicitly shown in the early episodes and I'm not going to spell out every little detail of the world building here just because you don't feel like working out the show.
Ignoring what I am saying and claiming I'm wrong is not a rebuttal.
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Old 2013-02-05, 21:42   Link #1251
Marcus H.
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This is a poor excuse for the story's faults. To me this series isn't doing a good job at making the setting believable, or getting the audience invested in its characters (I know boobs right).
Okay, the blame of the production team for the flow of the story, but I don't think they have anything to say when it comes to the characters. After all, the story is written with the premise that the characters are given so little relevance to the plot that the writer didn't even gave them names.

Quote:
Why does she want that? She's a demon, not a human. Why in the world would she wish for that? This is why I questioned introducing demons as part of this world. It seems that in this world that the demons only act like demons when it suits the story. Otherwise they seem to be going for a "demons are humans too!" approach, which is completely stupid. What the hell was the point of making them demons if they don't act like demons. Any sort of compromise between humans and demons would then be like between humans.
Great, you have declared that you find the central issue tackled by this series as stupid. You may drop this series now.

There's no point in watching an anime series if you're not actively looking for ways to enjoy it. It's a bit masochistic.

Quote:
Your own reply (the bolded parts) cemented my point even further . And I agree with Reckoner about this. Lacking in episodes is unrelated in presenting a good pacing of story. Without good pacing, it'll be difficult for the audience to be invested in the story and characters regardless of the material. It's the studio itself who decides how much material they would adapt each episode and how they execute it after all.
No, I think those who give them money to fuel the project has the greatest influence to the length of a series. I'm sure that a production team would not do a 24-episode series if they are only given a budget that only fits six episodes.
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Last edited by Marcus H.; 2013-02-05 at 21:53.
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Old 2013-02-05, 21:49   Link #1252
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
A lot of the other details you're talking about though are not adequately addressed by the anime, so it's basically irrelevant to me. I imagine the source material is much more detailed, and perhaps this adaption is merely poor, but that is not what I'm evaluating here.
This I agree. The anime just flash-through some things I mentioned, and some of them is probably yet to be presented.

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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
No, I think those who give them money to fuel the project has the greatest influence to the length of a series. I'm sure that a production team would not do a 24-episode series if they are only given a budget that only fits six episodes.
No. I was talking about the pacing and execution for each episode (which is the studio's call), not how much budget/episodes the studio get.
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Old 2013-02-05, 22:38   Link #1253
Dark Faith
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Why does she want that? She's a demon, not a human. Why in the world would she wish for that? This is why I questioned introducing demons as part of this world. It seems that in this world that the demons only act like demons when it suits the story. Otherwise they seem to be going for a "demons are humans too!" approach, which is completely stupid. What the hell was the point of making them demons if they don't act like demons. Any sort of compromise between humans and demons would then be like between humans.
But who decided that demons in every setting must be evil ?
I think part of this series charm (even if I find myself not enjoying the show as a whole THAT much for other reasons) is showing that despite their differences, humans and demons aren't all that different. They're driven by the same goals and face the same issues as their human counterparts.

So why are they at war? Why can't they co-exist ?
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Old 2013-02-05, 22:48   Link #1254
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Reckoner: Again it's one of those things glossed on in the anime -- there are many different tribes of "demons" (humanity lumps all of them together apparently, INCLUDING fairies), and where there are those who are belligerent, there are also tribes who want to be left alone (the Maou's and Head Maid's tribe of origin).

Even not being familiar with the source material, you can see what we're getting at here: the production is doesn't seem to be executing properly what more than a few of us found so interesting about the world of Maouyuu. (See the part where they cut out a part of the story NONE of the manga adaptations -- and there are a lot of them -- skipped, even the comedy 4koma!)
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Old 2013-02-05, 23:03   Link #1255
Marcus H.
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No. I was talking about the pacing and execution for each episode (which is the studio's call), not how much budget/episodes the studio get.
I admit, there are problems, but it's just them trying to make it as close to the light novel story as possible. I assume that the story forces them to go into hyperdrive in the aspect of time, since ending the one-cour series halfway into a "nothing much happens" will be catastrophic saleswise.
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Old 2013-02-06, 00:02   Link #1256
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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I admit, there are problems, but it's just them trying to make it as close to the light novel story as possible. I assume that the story forces them to go into hyperdrive in the aspect of time, since ending the one-cour series halfway into a "nothing much happens" will be catastrophic saleswise.
Once again, I’m not badmouthing the studio’s intention (I’m aware that they want to do the best they can). Still, that doesn’t change the fact that we get an underwhelming result. We get episodes with bad pacing and lack of execution regardless of the studio’s condition and intention, that is my point (as you yourself admit that there are problem within each episode).
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Old 2013-02-06, 00:15   Link #1257
Marcus H.
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Once again, I’m not badmouthing the studio’s intention (I’m aware that they want to do the best they can). Still, that doesn’t change the fact that we get an underwhelming result. We get episodes with bad pacing and lack of execution regardless of the studio’s condition and intention, that is my point (as you yourself admit that there are problem within each episode).
Well, at least I'm not going fanboy and defending absolutely everything about Maoyuu.
I just don't want too many people talking bad things about a particular series because it ruins the fun for most people, especially when those bad things come from overly high expectations or excessive comparisons to source material.
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Old 2013-02-06, 00:35   Link #1258
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Well, at least I'm not going fanboy and defending absolutely everything about Maoyuu.
Thanks then. And I’m not doing that too.

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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
I just don't want too many people talking bad things about a particular series because it ruins the fun for most people, especially when those bad things come from overly high expectations or excessive comparisons to source material.
Well, I feel for you, but unfortunately, this thread is a place for discussion for those who’s watching Maoyuu anime. It’s unavoidable for people to write their opinions here. Plus, quite a number of members who posted negative things about this series are the dissatisfied-anime-only watchers who should be the ones who enjoy the anime the most. Many of those anime-only watchers use these words to describe Maoyuu anime: “boring”, “forgettable”, and “bland” among other things. They said that without doing any comparison with other sources or have high expectation of this anime. What do you say about that?
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Old 2013-02-06, 00:46   Link #1259
Marcus H.
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^ First of all, there are also people who continue to compare this with "Kotowaru!". (Let me get that off my chest.)

Quote:
Plus, quite a number of members who posted negative things about this series are the dissatisfied-anime-only watchers who should be the ones who enjoy the anime the most. Many of those anime-only watchers use these words to describe Maoyuu anime: “boring”, “forgettable”, and “bland” among other things. They said that without doing any comparison with other sources or have high expectation of this anime.
Some (anime-only watchers) actually came here expecting something similar to Spice and Wolf, actually. That aside, those who find the anime series "“boring”, “forgettable”, and “bland” among other things" probably viewed anime in a different way than those who are satisfied with it. The trick here is to view the series within its universe — throw away the cliches you knew from TvTropes, stop viewing Maou's actions in a modern person's viewpoint and just enjoy the ride. (Think too much and Maou's actions would be like child's play. Think too little and you'll end up asleep. A little motivation also helps.) Those who are unable to do so will find difficulty in enjoying this series.

I recommend those who would watch this series to space out watching each episode, probably doing an episode once every four days or so. The plot covers so much time that it would feel too fast in a marathon, but also has an overall mood that might make it a bad idea to watch an episode weekly.

And holy cow, I think we're beginning to veer off-topic.
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Old 2013-02-06, 00:59   Link #1260
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
^ First of all, there are also people who continue to compare this with "Kotowaru!". (Let me get that off my chest.)
I can't say about the others, but I already stopped doing that since episode 3. From there on, I judged each episode solely by the merit of the anime. The result: the "rushed" feeling and bad pacing still constantly present.

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And holy cow, I think we're beginning to veer off-topic.
Nah, we're still talking about Maoyuu anime, so we're still on-topic imo.
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