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Old 2013-02-06, 01:13   Link #6721
Azuma Denton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Alright, I couldn't ignore my curiosity any longer:

Is there something going on between Indonesians and Malaysians in general (not necessarily between members of this forum), maybe even historically, that would make you ask this question?

It seems unlikely that the question would just come up to you out of nowhere.
Indonesia and Malaysia often engage in island and cultural dispute.
The earliest one is Ganyang Malaysia movement around 1960s.
After that, there are several confrontation that includes Ambalat island, "Rasa sayang-sayange" song, Batik dispute, and many more.
You can ask more detail to our history master, Ridwan.
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Old 2013-02-06, 02:18   Link #6722
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azuma Denton View Post
^
I think your friends refer to Malay as a tribe, not Malaysian...
Malay tribe both exist in Malaysia and Indonesia.
Some foreigners I have met in the UK actually argued with me that Chinese ppl exist only in China, and Malay in Malaysians only refers to the Malay people. I gave up trying to explain to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azuma Denton View Post
Indonesia and Malaysia often engage in island and cultural dispute.
The earliest one is Ganyang Malaysia movement around 1960s.
After that, there are several confrontation that includes Ambalat island, "Rasa sayang-sayange" song, Batik dispute, and many more.
You can ask more detail to our history master, Ridwan.
You forget football, lol.
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Old 2013-02-06, 02:32   Link #6723
bhl88
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Old 2013-02-06, 02:38   Link #6724
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUAHAHAHAHAHA View Post
Some foreigners I have met in the UK actually argued with me that Chinese ppl exist only in China, and Malay in Malaysians only refers to the Malay people. I gave up trying to explain to them.
It's true, when I try to leave China I immediately cease to exist.
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Old 2013-02-06, 04:32   Link #6725
DonQuigleone
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I'm pretty sure that prior to independence, the primary language of Indonesia was called Malay too.

Anyway, the borders in South East Asia are fairly artificial. They're based on the British and Dutch Colonial Empires, and not on any actual nation states. For instance, if the Malay peninsula, or Malaysian Borneo been part of the Dutch Colonial Empire, they probably would have ended out as part of "Indonesia" too. Likewise, if the British had owned Sumatra, it would have ended up in Malaysia.
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Old 2013-02-06, 04:36   Link #6726
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azuma Denton View Post
Indonesia and Malaysia often engage in island and cultural dispute.
Interesting read on the Wikipedia article.

Still, for the most part, Indonesians and Malaysians today do coexist, don't they?
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Old 2013-02-06, 04:57   Link #6727
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I'm pretty sure that prior to independence, the primary language of Indonesia was called Malay too.

Anyway, the borders in South East Asia are fairly artificial. They're based on the British and Dutch Colonial Empires, and not on any actual nation states. For instance, if the Malay peninsula, or Malaysian Borneo been part of the Dutch Colonial Empire, they probably would have ended out as part of "Indonesia" too. Likewise, if the British had owned Sumatra, it would have ended up in Malaysia.
Sabah.. should have been part of the Philippines and not Malaysia.. damn British rented it from the Sultan of Jolo but gave it to Malaysia..
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Old 2013-02-06, 05:21   Link #6728
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Sabah.. should have been part of the Philippines and not Malaysia.. damn British rented it from the Sultan of Jolo but gave it to Malaysia..
And the Mindanao seperatists might claim that Sabah should be part of their newly independent state.

That's the problem with borders based on Colonies. Artificial.

The Philippines itself, like Malaysia and Indonesia is a fairly artificial entity, though it's existed as a single polity for longer.
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Old 2013-02-06, 05:35   Link #6729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUAHAHAHAHAHA View Post
Some foreigners I have met in the UK actually argued with me that Chinese ppl exist only in China, and Malay in Malaysians only refers to the Malay people. I gave up trying to explain to them.
I encountered similar confusion years ago when I was studying in Britain. My British friends just couldn't wrap their heads around the idea that I could be Chinese and Singaporean. For them, you have to be from China to be Chinese.

To be sure, the "culture shock" cuts both ways. It is difficult for non-Europeans to appreciate the original definition of a "nation-state". A modern state, in European historical experience, is made up of a group of people with a shared ethnicity. Hence, it takes a nation of English to make England, a nation of French to make France, a nation of Germans to make Germany, and so on.

In the popular experience of Europe, there is little distinction between a nation and a state. National groups that clamour for independence would break away from larger hegemonic states to become states in their own right.

In that sense, to an European, a "state" is made up of people of one primary ethnicity. The concept of a diaspora, like those of the Jews and the Chinese, never quite took hold. (Indeed, the Romani nation was often scorned for their lack of a state, a country to call their own.) To the European mind, it seems, it doesn't matter whether you're originally Chinese, Irish or Polish — once you've settled down permanently in the United States, for example, you effectively become American. In other words, there doesn't seem to be any separation between ethnicity and nationality. They are one and the same to an European.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I'm pretty sure that prior to independence, the primary language of Indonesia was called Malay too.

Anyway, the borders in South East Asia are fairly artificial. They're based on the British and Dutch Colonial Empires, and not on any actual nation states. For instance, if the Malay peninsula, or Malaysian Borneo been part of the Dutch Colonial Empire, they probably would have ended out as part of "Indonesia" too. Likewise, if the British had owned Sumatra, it would have ended up in Malaysia.
It is slightly more complicated than that, in a way that is largely unrelated to colonial power arrangements. Among other constitutional definitions, a Malay in Malaysia must also be Muslim. Yes, as far as Kuala Lumpur is concerned, a Malay must be Muslim. One cannot renounce Islam and still remain Malay. Doing so makes you an apostate, and that's a serious matter that will be brought before the Syriah court.

Many Singaporeans, who are mostly Chinese in ethnicity, are often confused about this. When they see Malay-looking Indonesians eating pork, they wonder what's going on. They don't realise that a good number of Indonesians are actually Christian or Hindu. For these Indonesians, pork is not haram.

In this regard, I'm sad to say that many Singaporeans are woefully ignorant of history and geography. (Try asking a Singaporean to name the states of Malaysia, our immediate neighbour. I'm ready to bet that most will not be able to identify all 13, let alone place them on the map.)

Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2013-02-06 at 05:50.
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Old 2013-02-06, 05:54   Link #6730
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
In that sense, to an European, a "state" is made up of people of one primary ethnicity. The concept of a diaspora, like those of the Jews and the Chinese, never quite took hold. To the European mind, it seems, it doesn't matter whether you're originally Chinese, Irish or Polish — once you've settled down permanently in the United States, for example, you effectively become American. In other words, there doesn't seem to be any separation between ethnicity and nationality. They are one and the same to an European.
I've come across this as well. In truth a nation or culture is a less artificial concept then a "state", and culture's came first and then over the last two centuries have tried to create states for themselves. However, it get's complicated when you have two cultures living in the same place(Alsace Lorraine is German, no it's French!)...

However, a nation is also pretty artificial too. For instance, if half my ancestors were all Jewish, but I speak English, don't believe in Judaism, eat pork, don't take part in any Jewish cultural activities and am generally culturally Irish / American, my father is an Irish catholic, and I live in Ireland, what does that make me? Orthodox Jews will view me as a Jew(because you're Jewish if your mother is Jewish, no exceptions), Americans will sorta view me as American (because anyone can be American if they want to be), and Irish people (who I share the most in common with) will be rather ambivalent about it all, because my Americanisms make me stick out like a sore thumb, so when they meet me they think "American". It's all hopelessly confusing.

However, the "nation state" attitudes are the root of a lot of strife that's occurred in Europe over the last centuries. Europe was only able to form it's nice neat nation states after 2 world wars and massive ethnic cleansing and assimilation projects. I would not wish the same process on any other continent. And the zones where multiple cultures still coexist are still unstable (think Northern Ireland, Basque country...)
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Old 2013-02-06, 06:36   Link #6731
RRW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUAHAHAHAHAHA View Post
Some foreigners I have met in the UK actually argued with me that Chinese ppl exist only in China, and Malay in Malaysians only refers to the Malay people. I gave up trying to explain to them.
TBH I call Chinese that born and live in Malay a Chinese Malay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Interesting read on the Wikipedia article.

Still, for the most part, Indonesians and Malaysians today do coexist, don't they?
We are coexist just like Korea & Japan
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Old 2013-02-06, 08:04   Link #6732
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RRW View Post
TBH I call Chinese that born and live in Malay a Chinese Malay.


If you say that to another Chinese apart from me in Malaysia, he or she may be offended, since Malay and Chinese are two different ethnic groups, and lumping them together means that the distinctive culture of the two groups is ignored, which may lead to a sense of loss of identity. While one might say that it doesn't matter, and that in the end Malay, Chinese, Indians and indigenous tribes are Malaysians, us Malaysians still prefer not to be assimilated into one giant group, which is why the issue of race is a sensitive one here, cause there have been cases when the Muslims try to force their law upon non-Muslims.
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Old 2013-02-06, 08:14   Link #6733
Kudryavka
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Originally Posted by Guernsey View Post
Does anyone know how to OnScripter Wii as well as OnScripter?
How to "?" ONScipter? I'm not sure if you mean use or program (use to make a translation).

On Wii it's a homebrew program right?
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Old 2013-02-06, 09:18   Link #6734
Daniel E.
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Folks, please remember not to go around posting personal information of others openly in threads, even if the person in question is a friend. That people reveal things about themselves (their nationality) to some, does not mean they want that info posted for all to see in any forum thread.

Also avoid making lists were you try to make said personal info even more easily available to others.
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Old 2013-02-06, 12:46   Link #6735
Guernsey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
How to "?" ONScipter? I'm not sure if you mean use or program (use to make a translation).

On Wii it's a homebrew program right?
Yes, that is the one. I cannot make head or tails of this program.
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Old 2013-02-07, 06:32   Link #6736
Ridwan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Alright, I couldn't ignore my curiosity any longer:

Is there something going on between Indonesians and Malaysians in general (not necessarily between members of this forum), maybe even historically, that would make you ask this question?

It seems unlikely that the question would just come up to you out of nowhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azuma Denton View Post
Indonesia and Malaysia often engage in island and cultural dispute.
The earliest one is Ganyang Malaysia movement around 1960s.
After that, there are several confrontation that includes Ambalat island, "Rasa sayang-sayange" song, Batik dispute, and many more.
You can ask more detail to our history master, Ridwan.
We were originally fairly intimate with Malayan Union before Cold War geopolitics started screwing things. Thing is, Indonesia in early years was pretty turbulent and prone to swinging back and forth between eastern and western bloc during the '50s, but eventually settled with the former after Civil War, in which the west was limitedly involved in favor of the rebels. So there was mutual paranoia between Indonesia and the western bloc as the result, and Malaysia, which was formed by joining Malaya and the surrounding British holdings, was essentially a product of that.

The relations between two countries was normalized after Suharto took over Indonesia presidency, but the animosity remains, which has been useful lately for both countries to distract their people from more pressing domestic concerns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I'm pretty sure that prior to independence, the primary language of Indonesia was called Malay too.

Likewise, if the British had owned Sumatra, it would have ended up in Malaysia.
Indonesian Malay is pretty mongrelized though.

Sumatra would be rather hard to control from Malaya. Historically, it has always been Malayan Peninsula under Sumatran domination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
1) It is slightly more complicated than that, in a way that is largely unrelated to colonial power arrangements. Among other constitutional definitions, a Malay in Malaysia must also be Muslim. Yes, as far as Kuala Lumpur is concerned, a Malay must be Muslim. One cannot renounce Islam and still remain Malay. Doing so makes you an apostate, and that's a serious matter that will be brought before the Syriah court.

2) Many Singaporeans, who are mostly Chinese in ethnicity, are often confused about this. When they see Malay-looking Indonesians eating pork, they wonder what's going on. They don't realise that a good number of Indonesians are actually Christian or Hindu. For these Indonesians, pork is not haram.

3) In this regard, I'm sad to say that many Singaporeans are woefully ignorant of history and geography. (Try asking a Singaporean to name the states of Malaysia, our immediate neighbour. I'm ready to bet that most will not be able to identify all 13, let alone place them on the map.)
1) I'll blame the British.

2) There are not so few of Indonesian muslims who don't observe pork ban.

3) Ignorance transcends national boundaries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RRW View Post
We are coexist just like Korea & Japan
It's not that bad. At least it hasn't infiltrated schools... well not since '60s anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MUAHAHAHAHAHA View Post
If you say that to another Chinese apart from me in Malaysia, he or she may be offended, since Malay and Chinese are two different ethnic groups, and lumping them together means that the distinctive culture of the two groups is ignored, which may lead to a sense of loss of identity. While one might say that it doesn't matter, and that in the end Malay, Chinese, Indians and indigenous tribes are Malaysians, us Malaysians still prefer not to be assimilated into one giant group, which is why the issue of race is a sensitive one here, cause there have been cases when the Muslims try to force their law upon non-Muslims.
The basis for Malaysian identity is, to be honest, a rather unhealthy one. It's still better then Israel however, in the sense that they don't enforce it with military repression.
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Old 2013-02-07, 07:40   Link #6737
NoemiChan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
The Philippines itself, like Malaysia and Indonesia is a fairly artificial entity, though it's existed as a single polity for longer.
That's based on a foreigners point of view..
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Old 2013-02-07, 08:06   Link #6738
Masuzu
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^ Not really, before the colonisers came our ancestors didn't really treat the entire achipelago as a single 'country'.
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Old 2013-02-07, 08:31   Link #6739
Ridwan
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All states are artificial to begin with, but how long has a polity been around as it is does matter in determining how "organic" it is.
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Old 2013-02-07, 10:50   Link #6740
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
Indonesian Malay is pretty mongrelized though.
Still called malay though. However, that's what you get when a language becomes a lingua franca for a region, like Malay did.
Quote:
Sumatra would be rather hard to control from Malaya. Historically, it has always been Malayan Peninsula under Sumatran domination.
Any harder then controlling Malaysian Borneo from the Peninsula?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
That's based on a foreigners point of view..
Eh, prior to the Spanish arriving the Philipines were a collection of Aboriginal tribes, and feuding minor kingdoms and sultanates, with no single eoncompassing culture, religion or language. Even today there are 171 languages spoken throughout the archipelago. Hell, even the name "Philippines" was given to the archipelago by the Spanish (naming it after Philip II).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasumi View Post
^ Not really, before the colonisers came our ancestors didn't really treat the entire achipelago as a single 'country'.
Exactly, were it not for the Spanish it's entirely likely you could have 3, 10 or 100 different states in the region, just like there were several states throughout Indonesia before the Dutch arrived, and were it not for the dutch, Indonesia would probably still consist of a number of independent states(where the borders would fall, I can't say). The unifying principle came from how the Colonisers controlled them.

It's also a similar story for India as well, who's unification is just as artificial as that of Indonesia or the Philipines, though India did have some Empires in the past that controlled the entire subcontinent. But that's nothing like, say, China which has existed in a largely unified form for the last 3-5 thousand years (with a few interregnums).
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