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Old 2013-02-03, 07:25   Link #31841
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I think I need a translation of it...
Spoiler for ?:
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Old 2013-02-03, 08:46   Link #31842
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I was so excited when I decided to support the manga today!

Annnnnddddd then I saw that it wasn't arriving until March.......
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Old 2013-02-03, 11:54   Link #31843
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Another interesting things about Ep 8 the manga is that it clarified more stuffs about red truth.

It confirms that there are various types of red, some working only on a single gameboard and another that works for all the gameboards and that's also a truth beyond doubt that applies outside of the catbox.
Interesting enough Battler confirms he could have tricked Ange using red truth to declare their family was getting along... because on that gameboard they were. In short he would have used the first type of red truth (which can be taken as an implication that the second type of red couldn't be used? I wonder...).

Battler also explains why it would be pointless, according to him, to tell Ange whatever truth (type 1 or type 2) and implies the real truth is something that would push Ange to reject it because that's not something she wishes to see/hear.

In short fundamentally Battler believes that no matter what he says to Ange, she wouldn't accept it unless it's what she wants to be the truth, even if he were to say it in red.

Interesting enough George says it's the first time they organize a party like this but Ange thinks she had already seen a thing like it... so there's to wonder if she's remembering something that wasn't in the visual novels and that happened... let's say in Rokkenjima in 1985?

I've to say the new scenes and info that have been added to Ep 8 manga version make it rather interesting!

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Old 2013-02-03, 19:56   Link #31844
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Just wondering... and I still think that:
1) the whole story about Italians hiding gold in Japan is pretty absurd and a plot contrivance
Pretty much, I originally thought Kinzo only had 1 bar of gold and a mountain of fake gold and he gambled the investors who happened to pick the 1 bar of real gold. That seemed to be what the story was implying with Kinzo gambling against all odds but instead he really just had a stupid amount of gold.

Also I find it funny how the manga seems to be more or less a huge revision of the original VN's.
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Old 2013-02-04, 00:18   Link #31845
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Quote:
Pretty much, I originally thought Kinzo only had 1 bar of gold and a mountain of fake gold and he gambled the investors who happened to pick the 1 bar of real gold. That seemed to be what the story was implying with Kinzo gambling against all odds but instead he really just had a stupid amount of gold.

Also I find it funny how the manga seems to be more or less a huge revision of the original VN's.
You're assuming that Kinzo wasn't lying to Will's face. The Tea Party of EP7 implies that he did on atleast a few things.
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Old 2013-02-05, 09:18   Link #31846
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Also important is that manga 8 states the message bottles were "derivative tales I created on the way, while I worked out the details for my game boards with you"

Which implies that the message bottles aren't A) the final product and B) different to the game boards Battler (or at least we through the novel) actually saw.


The thing with the red truth was nicely summarised, but sort of unnecessary in that we knew there were truths for one game board and truths for them all. It seems interesting that the truths for them all do/can apply to the world beyond the gameboard. So any overarching truth (except maybe Erika's stuff) is potentially prime material.


Also besides outright lying, you only need so much real gold to create a pretty convincing huge mountain of the stuff. Though unrealistic as it is, the reds by Lambda sort of imply that there is just a huge pile of gold lying around.
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Old 2013-02-05, 10:54   Link #31847
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Also besides outright lying, you only need so much real gold to create a pretty convincing huge mountain of the stuff. Though unrealistic as it is, the reds by Lambda sort of imply that there is just a huge pile of gold lying around.
Well there is... in ep5. The only time a detective (and Battler) has ever actually seen it. You have Will's investigation, but the later scene implies that Kinzo's narrative was nevertheless distorted somehow, which casts doubt on the story that Will was told.

At the very least, we have one red which applies to one game. I don't see any reason to try to twist Lambda's words, so I'd take her at that. For End. For the rest... I dunno.
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Old 2013-02-05, 15:51   Link #31848
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Well in EP3 it was said in red that "that pile of gold is real" (paraphrased). The question however is, whether you want to interpret it as a "local red truth" or as a "global red truth".
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Old 2013-02-05, 16:24   Link #31849
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For our purposes, it seems fine to accept it as real one way or another. It ultimately makes no difference since it ceases to exist when the island blows up, apparently. Unless it was all somehow spent prior, but as we've covered numerous times, the only real use of the gold is to secure loans because there's really no legal way of moving it.
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Old 2013-02-05, 20:23   Link #31850
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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Also besides outright lying, you only need so much real gold to create a pretty convincing huge mountain of the stuff. Though unrealistic as it is, the reds by Lambda sort of imply that there is just a huge pile of gold lying around.
Remember the scene in the anime with Evatrice and the gold?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv6oGgcQ1Iw

That scene overstates the amount of gold. I calculate that a solid gold cube with side 80 cm will have a mass of 10 tons. Even taking into account the air spaces, a 10 ton cube of gold ingots shouldn't be more than 1 meter on the side.
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Old 2013-02-06, 02:51   Link #31851
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That implies, of course, that it's pure gold. Or that it's perfectly solid through and through.

...Or that Ryukishi knows anything about the physical properties of gold.
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Old 2013-02-06, 09:25   Link #31852
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Or that Studio Deen's animators know anything about the physical properties of gold, which is so absurdly unlikely I think it rises to the level of red truth.

Ryukishi is reasonable in his vagueness when describing the size of the pile, mostly referring to it by weight instead of physical dimensions. I'm sure he wasn't 100% clear on how much space 10 tons of gold takes up, but who cares? What matters is its value, not how big or heavy it actually is.

...Actually I have no idea if he got the value right either, at least in 1986 terms.
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Old 2013-02-06, 13:44   Link #31853
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Or that Studio Deen's animators know anything about the physical properties of gold, which is so absurdly unlikely I think it rises to the level of red truth.

Ryukishi is reasonable in his vagueness when describing the size of the pile, mostly referring to it by weight instead of physical dimensions. I'm sure he wasn't 100% clear on how much space 10 tons of gold takes up, but who cares? What matters is its value, not how big or heavy it actually is.

...Actually I have no idea if he got the value right either, at least in 1986 terms.
I'm not taking Deen's representation as correct; it's just a nice illustration. (When it aired, people criticized it for having a small amount of gold, when they're actually overstating things.)

1 cubic meter of solid gold weighs just under 20 tons; scaling it down a bit, a cube of solid gold 80 cm on the side will weigh 10 tons. It's not something that overflows multiple rooms. It's something that would fit in the corner of an apartment.
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Old 2013-02-06, 14:06   Link #31854
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Going by the Kinzo story, the only thing it really could've been was one, maybe two palettes of gold ingots, basically. I mean, you can't fit much more cargo than that on a submarine. The implication I got from the story and from OMK and other sources is that the "gold room" is more of a luxurious underground bedroom kind of thing that happens to also have the gold in it, probably near one of the walls. The actual room itself is probably mostly empty.
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Old 2013-02-07, 11:09   Link #31855
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Well, I think at least in the VN, when you see the gold, it looks like a giant wall, and might be imagined taking up an entire side. So I guess that's where they were coming from thinking they made it too small.

Although, to be honest, how much bigger would a pyramid of the same weight have to be? A right pyramid with a base of 80cm will probably weigh less than a cube with a side of 80cm.
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Old 2013-02-07, 11:32   Link #31856
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A pyramid will have 1/3 the volume of the containing brick.

A pyramid with equal length, width, height, that comes to a point would have to be 1.1m on the side. If the sides are steeper, and the top is flat, then it can be a bit smaller.
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Old 2013-02-07, 12:42   Link #31857
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Well, I think at least in the VN, when you see the gold, it looks like a giant wall, and might be imagined taking up an entire side. So I guess that's where they were coming from thinking they made it too small.
I can't speak for the PS3 version, but the PC version has only three images:

gold1, which is the single bar lying on a cloth on a table from the scene where Krauss shows Natsuhi in Legend

gold2, which is a side-angle shot of an indeterminate stack of gold bars. It's a close-up shot, so it's difficult to call it a "giant wall." It could very well be a small stack that's just being shot close-up.

gold3, which is a top-down shot. There are a dozen or so bars visible, but they stretch beyond the bounds of the image, so it's impossible to tell how many there actually are.

I may have 2 and 3 mixed up, but that's the extent of it. If the gold were on a pedestal or palette or table or something roughly 1m high, and the volume of gold as roger described were about 1m tall, the whole pile would be just above the head height of a particularly tall person (such as Kinzo or Battler). Essentially you're looking at 2m tops, or about 6-8 feet in height. That's enough to inspire awe, but it's also just small enough to actually contain a 10 tons worth, and the table/stand/pedestal would create the illusion that the gold pile is far larger than it is.
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Old 2013-02-07, 14:31   Link #31858
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Maybe Kinzo was not as successful as everyone though. Maybe he made LOSSES, but could compensate them with MORE GOLD and because of that he seemed to somehow get more and more money, which led to people assuming that he was a "great gambler" although he was not.

This would turn the "10 tons of gold" into "less than 10 tons of gold".
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Old 2013-02-07, 14:48   Link #31859
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Regarding EP 4:

The first Twilight IMO is the very key to understand it but please tell if this might be too farfetched.

People who died:
Natsuhi
Rosa
Eva
Hideyoshi
Genji
Rudolf
6

Those who survived:
Kumasawa,Gohda,Kyrie,Shannon/Kanon,Krauss.Of course exluding Kinzo here.
If we count Shannon and Kanon as 1:
6

Demons that appeared:
00
45
410
Ronoue
Gaap
Vergilia
6

6-6-6.
The number of the beast but also:
Revelation 13:15 Verse 18.
"Here is Wisdom, Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast"

The number of the beast.
Roman Emperor Neros name value = 666.
I'm taking this from the wiki now:
Nero was adopted by Roman Emperor and his great uncle Claudius to become the heir.
When he became Emperor Nero ordered many Theaters to be built but is believed to have caused a grand fire in Rome in order to clear land to build his Villa, the Domus Aurea (The Golden House.)
The fire mainly affected the Aristocratic taking many of their lives.
Ultimately, Nero became a tyrant and ordered many executions among others his own family.
Nero's father was known for Adultery and his mother was stated to be a violent and ruthless woman who is still today suspected of being responsible for the Death of Claudius making Nero the Emperor.
After some time, Nero's mother (Forgot to mention the name) Agrippina and himself came to struggle for Power and among others, Nero threatened to quit as Emperor and leave her and the country with his lover Sporus a boy that Nero though took as his wife even making him wear empress jewelry and clothes and was referred as "Mistress" and "Lady" as he had a great resemblance to a girl, his former love Sabina and at times even called Sporus by that name.

Last edited by Kiltias; 2013-02-07 at 15:28.
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Old 2013-02-08, 08:36   Link #31860
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the only real use of the gold is to secure loans because there's really no legal way of moving it.
That reminds me of an oldish movie (maybe Sahara?) I saw where in the end the army gave these middle eastern refugees a bar of gold each and sent them on their merry way. I was thinking: What are these guys going to do with those in the middle of the desert, besides if they all have one they can't even trade it, and what will they do, crack it into a small piece each time they need to buy bread?

Gold is far, far more useful as collateral to wealth (which is what our banks actually do, money is a representation of gold) than it is at being wealth.


As for what happened to the gold, assumedly it vaporised and was dispersed into a mist in the underground room and is now spread over the island. Even if there were some reasonable lumps of it, no-one can mine it as the island still belongs to the Ushiromiya
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