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Old 2013-02-05, 22:15   Link #2861
Lhklan
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Good. Now this is something that's been bugging me: How long does it usually takes to travel from one world to another? What does it depends on? Distance?
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Old 2013-02-05, 22:19   Link #2862
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It depends on distance, according to A's. When the other Lieze twin attacked Fate, back when their identities hadn't been figured out, Amy and company tried to calculate the time it'd take to get from where Nanoha was to where Fate was. According to the time calculated, the masked man couldn't possibly have traveled the distance in the amount of time he seemingly did.
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Old 2013-02-05, 22:21   Link #2863
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Ah, I see. Another thing is that with spells like Transporter or Dimensional Transport, how much mana/energy does it cost? And how it is counted? The size of the object/person, the distance and speed, etc...
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Old 2013-02-05, 22:31   Link #2864
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But they say the dimensional transfer could not get the Masked Guy in time from one place to the other or did they say that the spell needs more time to charge and he could not speed it up the process to get from where Nanoha was to were Fate and Signum were?

We do see Arf use that spell to travel from Earth to the garden and I asume the teleportation takes no time beyond how much you need to prepare it.
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Old 2013-02-05, 22:42   Link #2865
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They specifically mentioned the amount of time he'd need to travel (IIRC, somewhere in the range of 22 minutes) and the amount of time between his disappearance from protecting Vita and his attack on Fate. Given that, I imagine there's no known method of speeding up the transfer time.
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Old 2013-02-05, 23:16   Link #2866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
They specifically mentioned the amount of time he'd need to travel (IIRC, somewhere in the range of 22 minutes) and the amount of time between his disappearance from protecting Vita and his attack on Fate. Given that, I imagine there's no known method of speeding up the transfer time.
Is the method of speeding up the travel time higher if the person's in the Bureau? It's seems they have better equipment that's probably why the masked guy can go faster. Or one of them was hanging out close to where Fate was.
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Old 2013-02-05, 23:18   Link #2867
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Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
Is the method of speeding up the travel time higher if the person's in the Bureau? It's seems they have better equipment that's probably why the masked guy can go faster. Or one of them was hanging out close to where Fate was.
The discrepancy was a clue that there were actually two masked men. Seeing how it was the Bureau who calculated the time and found the discrepancy, there's likely no known method of speeding up travel time that they have.

So yes, the other twin was lying in wait for the opportune moment to take down Fate and supply the Book with her Linker Core.
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Old 2013-02-05, 23:20   Link #2868
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But Yuuno use the same spell on Nanoha to send her where Fate was and she didn't take even a minute going from the Artha to that other place. For that matter they didn't take any time going from Earth to the Artha either when Chrono take Nanoha and Yuuno there for the first time.
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Old 2013-02-05, 23:28   Link #2869
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We don't know how much time was spent between Vita's detection and Nanoha's traveling there. It wasn't terribly important--only the amount of time between Vita's escape and Fate's attack was important in that regard.
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Old 2013-02-05, 23:37   Link #2870
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Well you are right there. Even so is weird, a time delay should not be possible with a dimensional transfer, he is not moving in space he is jumping dimensions, breaking the time and space barrier. Should be like Goku's teleportation trick: just a second no matter distance that is what teleportation does and what else could it be something call Dimensional Transfer...

Well, they do say you will need 20 minutes to go from Nanoha to Fate's location in that episode and he did it just in 9 so is impossible but I think they could also say that the distance was so long that he could not fly that fast. I mean, was even a direct indication Nanoha and Fate were not in the same planet? I am curious here.
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Old 2013-02-06, 02:34   Link #2871
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Uh... about the travel time, does "Dimensional sea/rift" count as excuse? Sorry if it's entirely wrong.
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Old 2013-02-06, 06:23   Link #2872
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Ok, so putting aside you change the idea behind the oar and sword analogy we were using so now it has nothing to do what we say before, I still believe the argument doesn’t hold to proof me wrong.
"I cannot deal with the analogy so I will just ignore it"

Yes, that does make it rather hard to prove you wrong.

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Like I say the differences between how both styles are use is just a cultural thing and not in the systems themselves. Look at Miura for that matter: good close range combat and she uses Mid-Childa. You insisted Belka is best as close range and Mid at long range but I can see both archive good results in close and long range attacks. That is why I stop to think that the simple difference of one for close combat and the other from distance was really what can tell them apart.
Funny thing about Miura, rereading Vivid she really is an exception to the rule, even in canon. Signum specifically noted she has a rare "Hard Hitter" skill.

So putting the noted exception Miura aside, who do we have left?

Fate? Uses energy blades to get around the lack of physical weapon enhancements and has to throw all she got in speed to outrun Belka's.

Harry? Her strongest attacks are still her ranged attacks.

Corona? Her strongest attacks is still her golem arts, and her Nephilim's fist are a creative use of that which are proven to be both needed to keep up with Belkan users and far more taxing.

Shante? Relies on illusions to even get hits in and her most powerful attacks are ranged attacks.

From where I'm standing, Belka's still better at melee, Mid's still better at range.

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Well you are right there. Even so is weird, a time delay should not be possible with a dimensional transfer, he is not moving in space he is jumping dimensions, breaking the time and space barrier. Should be like Goku's teleportation trick: just a second no matter distance that is what teleportation does and what else could it be something call Dimensional Transfer...

Well, they do say you will need 20 minutes to go from Nanoha to Fate's location in that episode and he did it just in 9 so is impossible but I think they could also say that the distance was so long that he could not fly that fast. I mean, was even a direct indication Nanoha and Fate were not in the same planet? I am curious here.
Think of the dimensional sea as a literal sea, and as the dimensions as islands. You can't cross the sea without a ship (Arthra) or a plane (transfer spell) and both have their own limitations in speed and range.
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Old 2013-02-06, 09:09   Link #2873
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Sansker, I asked those questions deliberately, because there are things you do well, and things you don't do well. You know what they are. According to your logic, though, that doesn't matter because you can do everything well. You can be a gold-medal Olympic gymnast, a master martial artist, a wealthy businessman getting rich off reading the stock market...

But the fact that you are none of these, and that you'd readily agree that you aren't, means that you argument is false. The things you do well, make you a Belkan style user. Because you can't do gymnastics like a gold-medal winner, that means you aren't a Mid style user. You are naturally talented one way, and not another. Sure, you can try to learn some gymnastics, but you won't do it as well as people who are talented that way.

THAT is what every single person here is trying to tell you. This is a fact of life. You, and you alone, are trying to deny a very basic fact of humanity.
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Old 2013-02-06, 11:47   Link #2874
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But the fact that you are none of these, and that you'd readily agree that you aren't, means that you argument is false. The things you do well, make you a Belkan style user. Because you can't do gymnastics like a gold-medal winner, that means you aren't a Mid style user. You are naturally talented one way, and not another. Sure, you can try to learn some gymnastics, but you won't do it as well as people who are talented that way.
I know what you guys are trying to say but aren't you streching things a bit too far? So, ok, Belka and Mid styles have some basic differences and one usually chooses the one more befited to it's talents, it's all good to that point.

But in the recent years we had been witnessing several examples of the complete opposite. Take Miura as an example, she's a Mid-user who fights totally like a Belkan one, the same goes for Chantez, another Mid-user whose fighting style inherited a LOT from Schach (Belkan user) and a bit from Sein (Combat Cyborg) which provoked her style to resemble NOTHING remotely similar to the talents usually emphasized by the Mid-school (unlike Fate, another close fighter Mid-user ...they don't have the expertise/range in shooting spells usually displayed by users of the style).

I must agree the other flip of the coin is a bit lacking in solid examples, Lutecia and Hayate are the most prominent examples of non-melee focused Belkan users (Shamal as well but that's kind of justified since she's a full supporter) but in their case both are Mid-Belkan hybrids which sort of explains the way they fight.

So yeah, in the Nanohaverse there are people who practice and play the sport suppossedly not fitted to their talents even if they can't do it like a gold-medal winner xDU
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Old 2013-02-06, 11:51   Link #2875
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Ok, Keroko, you change the analogy. First was about not using an oar in fencing, which is impossible, to I can use an oar in a fight which is really not a bad idea but another thing entirely. So I decide to ignore it because we a are moving the discussion over "A boat oar can be a good sword?" and that has nothing to do with out discussion. Who cares about boat oars and swords when were discussing magic? I use them as an analogy and you guys take the discussion like those were the subject.

And with your examples those are good proof that those fighters have their own styles but again, I can do range attack with Belka and close range with Mid-Childa, that is a fact as well. And I have seen nothing in any style that indicates one is weaker than the other. The fighters are different but they can all use power how they wish. For that matter Nanoha even stop Subaru and Vivio's attacks with one hand, and she doesn't have the "Stop no-justsu" Ulquiorra has or a rare "all stop" skill.

Kaijo, you miss the point. I am not talking about individual users being able to perform anything. I am talking that both Belka and Mid can be use to close or long range how the user wants. You don't need to be Mid to be good at long range by default and you don't have to be Belka to have good close range attacks. And we are taking that both styles are stock in a limited range each one. I am saying they are not. I am talking about styles, not people.

Besides I still stand by my points because you are missing them.

Also, a dimensional see should not affect dimensional transfer. I am moving beyond space and time. Distance is irrelevant on dimensional transfer.
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Old 2013-02-06, 11:57   Link #2876
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Hayate is a bad example because she has a rare skill. How did Keroko put it? CopyPasta. Just like Carim and Verossa have rare skills. With a rare skill, all bets are off.

And statistically speaking, there would have to be hybrid people like Miura. Still, you misunderstand the styles. Just because one is a Mid user, doesn't mean they lack close range or melee attacks. And for Miura, you can look at it as if she is storing up a Divine Buster in a limb, instead of a staff. Remember, her device ends up on her legs. She just has an atypical way of shooting
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Old 2013-02-06, 12:09   Link #2877
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Sansker, do you have any idea how big the Milky Way Galaxy alone is?

You need to put things into perspective, when you're doing a dimensional transfer, you're transferring from one dimension to another, that is, traveling.

Just think about where you live, okay? Now, you wish to go to the store, you can walk, ride a bike or drive a car to get there. The amount of time it takes you to get there is relevant to speed of travel and distance needed to travel, correct?

Why wouldn't dimension travel be the same?

But, you have to remember, when you start to get to millions of miles or more, distances become relative.

And when you talk dimensions, distances get even further than that.

As for your thing with styles, yes, a Belkan Knight could use long range abilities, we've seen Signum and Vita both use long-range attacks, however, how many long range attacks do they have? 1? 2? Most of their attacks are close range.

Heck, look at Zest and Erio, neither of them have any sort of long-range attacks in their arsenal.

And, yes, a Mid mage can use close range, as we see with Fate. But then again, Bardiche is an Axe, a Scythe and a sword, it's kind of designed to fight in close range. However, if you look at Fate, she mostly uses the melee abilities to defend herself and she fights at long range. Season 1: She had Nanoha in binds and instead of going in to put the hurt down, she uses Photon Lancer full power. In A's: she couldn't match Signum nor Reinforce in CQC and did her best work when fighting at a distance. in StrikerS, Fate does use her energy blade more, however, she mostly uses it to defend herself and get out of a situation, she's far more likely to use sheer speed or lightning blasts to overwhelm her opponents.

Nanoha does some close range stuff as well, but she only really uses a stabbing motion with Raising Heart, or beats them with it like a club. In StrikerS, she didn't fight Vivio in close range very much, she was seen blasting Vivio instead of stabbing or clubbing her.

Teana's another example of a mid-mage who can fight close range. She's a gunner, and while she has a dagger, it's only meant to be used in self-defense.

Hayate is a Belkan Knight-Mage, while Lutecia is a summoner. Summoners operate differently than most as they use their summons to fight most of their battles.

To wit, Caro, by the end of StrikerS is A+ in rank while Lutecia was S rank, yet Caro defeated Lutecia simply because Lutecia wasn't as good in personal combat.

Heck, Hayate admits that she's useless as anything but a bombardment user, but that's because, if you read into it, her Linker Core was powered up from Reinforce Eins and gave her even more power, but she never learned how to control it as well as Nanoha or Fate.
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Old 2013-02-06, 12:16   Link #2878
Akiyoshi
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And statistically speaking, there would have to be hybrid people like Miura. Still, you misunderstand the styles. Just because one is a Mid user, doesn't mean they lack close range or melee attacks. And for Miura, you can look at it as if she is storing up a Divine Buster in a limb, instead of a staff. Remember, her device ends up on her legs. She just has an atypical way of shooting
Starbright Blade is an interesting combination, it's basically a sword-beam in her legs (think of it as an improved version of Laevatein's Senkuuga or Agito's Karyuu Issen) that of course benefits of Mid-styled recollection magic. It's still kind of a stertch to say that makes a difference beteen styles. like if sayting Ryu is a mid-user just because he has the Hadou-ken xDU

EDIT:

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And, yes, a Mid mage can use close range, as we see with Fate. But then again, Bardiche is an Axe, a Scythe and a sword, it's kind of designed to fight in close range. However, if you look at Fate, she mostly uses the melee abilities to defend herself and she fights at long range. Season 1: She had Nanoha in binds and instead of going in to put the hurt down, she uses Photon Lancer full power. In A's: she couldn't match Signum nor Reinforce in CQC and did her best work when fighting at a distance. in StrikerS, Fate does use her energy blade more, however, she mostly uses it to defend herself and get out of a situation, she's far more likely to use sheer speed or lightning blasts to overwhelm her opponents.
Nothing to discuss, just adding that Fate has evolved into quite the melee fighter trough time. In StrikerS she fought and beat both Tre and Sette at the same time by melee alone on her climatic battle of the season. And then we have Fate in FORCE who is easily the most capable member of Section Six being able to keep up with Cypha who just trounced Signum effortlessly a few hours ago, hold her own against the monstrosity that is Armorized Deville and is the FIRST member of the cast able to lay a finger on Curren Huckebein (sure, it didn't last but Fate managed to surprise her which is very impressive considering the titanical badass Curren is).

So yeah, the strongest Non-Eclipse melee fighter in the Nanohaverse seems to be a Mid-user xDU
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Old 2013-02-06, 12:27   Link #2879
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Starbright Blade is an interesting combination, it's basically a sword-beam in her legs (think of it as an improved version of Laevatein's Senkuuga or Agito's Karyuu Issen) that of course benefits of Mid-styled recollection magic. It's still kind of a stertch to say that makes a difference beteen styles. like if sayting Ryu is a mid-user just because he has the Hadou-ken xDU
A good example to compare Miura with, is Corona. She strenghtened her limbs with rock golem magic, and dealt damage with a direct physical attack. Miura just stores up a spell and shoots it, sometimes at close range.
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Old 2013-02-06, 12:30   Link #2880
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A good example to compare Miura with, is Corona. She strenghtened her limbs with rock golem magic, and dealt damage with a direct physical attack. Miura just stores up a spell and shoots it, sometimes at close range.
Pardon my ignorance but what's the style Corona uses o.o?
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