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Old 2013-02-07, 05:53   Link #11961
Randrak42
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Or...you know, Nienami is just an awesome girl with an OP style.
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Old 2013-02-07, 06:08   Link #11962
Kurosu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
See.
No matter how many times Nisio has his characters call Medaka a "monster", she never will be. She's just an excessively, annoyingly, entirely good person. Medaka's actions this chapter don't even remotely qualify as "monstrous". She is doing exactly what any remotely heroic character would do; if Zenkichi was in a situation like this and kept refusing to give up, the story would be treating him like the hero he would be.
Maybe the message here is that these heroes are monsters?
After all, what he's describing here doesn't solely describe Medaka, the same could be said about pretty much all shonen heroes. To what extent would the end justify the means?
I think what you fail to understand is that, logically speaking, these "heroic actions" are more greedy than anything else. Thus why the two were having an extensive conversation
about it. Kotobuki and Yuzuriha were actually sympathizing with Iihiko, because although it's being labeled as "heroic", her actions so far have seemed to cause more harm than good.
My guess is that they're just trying to define what being a "hero" means. While you easily classified it as anything "any remotely heroic character would do", maybe what Nisio is trying to
do is make you question what heroism actually is. It seems like they're pitting two differing philosophies here, kinda curious what answer they come up with that's pro-medaka.

Though I will question why Zenkichi matters so much to you folks at this point. If you've been following the
story up until now, his story arc is pretty much been sidelined. To expect anything more seems silly as there's no conceivable reason that Zenkichi would suddenly become more important in this fight, so I would hope people would just give up in bringing it up time after time. This fight isn't about Zenkichi, it doesn't seem to be that much about Shiranui either, but it's becoming more geared toward Iihiko.
I also find it interesting or well, amusing to say that least, that Nisio is trying to characterize Iihiko after all this time. He's certainly being more emotive than usual.
Though it is an interesting viewpoint. To him, Medaka is a monster, when he himself almost literally looks like a monster. Kinda funny in a way.

Last edited by Kurosu; 2013-02-07 at 06:22.
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Old 2013-02-07, 07:04   Link #11963
omimon
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Oh man, that last page... I think I'm in love.
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Old 2013-02-07, 07:31   Link #11964
DmonHiro
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Holy crap, is Nienami actually mad? Damn...
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Old 2013-02-07, 07:58   Link #11965
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Nienami... hmm.. as was mentioned before this was telegraphed the moment her style was mentioned in detail.
Of course people didn't belive it considering the history of the manga, and I am still skeptical about it till the Iihiko situation is resolved.
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Old 2013-02-07, 08:17   Link #11966
KLGChaos
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I've begun to see a correlation between Nishio Ishin and Christopher Nolan. Their fans are extremely loyal and come down hard on anyone who doesn't worship them and find everything they create to be absolute genius. Meanwhile, their detractors always yell about how overrated they are and that those who like them are just bandwagon fanboys. It's quite an amusing parallel.

I think Nishio has flashes of brilliance. I thought Bakemonogatari was an great series, but only because I liked SHAFT's handling of it.... I probably wouldn't have liked the light novel series. Nishio's work is definitely an acquired taste and I feel that Medaka Box is definitely his weakest work and a mediocre manga in general. It's like Haruhi with a twist... and I couldn't stand that series either.
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Old 2013-02-07, 08:32   Link #11967
silvercover
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KLGChaos View Post
It's like Haruhi with a twist.
it really is.
some OP insistent character accompanied by the normal snarky guy.

anyway, I did thought a bit of nienami doing something more, when fukurou was explaining how her's is the strongest. I sort of thought maybe she'd teach medaka or assist in the battle.
its just that after the professor was killed and medaka learning her own style got rid of that idea quickly. fighting by herself came from left field.

hehe, nisio seems to have deconstructed the "deus ex machina" scenario, by making nienami easily ignorable and making her tag along while just making a passing comment about her powers.
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Old 2013-02-07, 10:05   Link #11968
Alpha Knight
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And yet the "Nisio has no idea of what he's doing anymore" everyday more stupid argument. That's it, just keep spouting the same bullshit all over again to convinces yourselves. You're stubborn like a brick wall

But I don't care anymore. I loved everything in this chapter.
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Old 2013-02-07, 10:42   Link #11969
KLGChaos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
And yet the "Nisio has no idea of what he's doing anymore" everyday more stupid argument. That's it, just keep spouting the same bullshit all over again to convinces yourselves. You're stubborn like a brick wall

But I don't care anymore. I loved everything in this chapter.
Thank you for proving my point.
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Old 2013-02-07, 11:04   Link #11970
Endscape
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Originally Posted by KLGChaos View Post
Thank you for proving my point.
So the fact that someone likes the manga, means that they're irrational fanboys? Quite a self centered way of thinking there.


In any case, I quite liked the chapter, especially Nienami at the end there. I look forward to next week.
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Old 2013-02-07, 11:05   Link #11971
Alpha Knight
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^And thank you for proving mine. You know, your opinion holds as much worth as mine

There was once a time you had arguments to justify your position. Not anymore.
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Old 2013-02-07, 11:11   Link #11972
Clarste
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Originally Posted by OmegaShadow View Post
Almost no one, since a lot of people were too busy hating on Medaka to think about anything else.
Uh... I thought it was so obvious that it wasn't worth mentioning. Pretty much everything that's happened in the hospital has been leading up to Nienami saving the day.
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Old 2013-02-07, 11:36   Link #11973
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Kurosu View Post
*snip*
My problem is that while Medaka has purportedly changed as a character (as in that she is being self-sacrificing because she wants to be, not because it is the foundation of her existence) and is thus no longer a monster (as her being monstrous was because of her extreme selflessness while being unable to truly understand others which is not an opinion I entirely agree with but whatever) the characters are now treating her as though she hasn't changed at all.
There's no consistency here. It really feels like an excuse to have Iihiko get angry and beat her to death.
Either way, this is going to end happily since Medaka still has to undergo the Kurokami Trials so I really don't see how this is going to end up delivering any sort of real message.
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Old 2013-02-07, 12:02   Link #11974
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Selflessness is not greedy. What matters is the intent behind which you do things, not necessarily their consequences (especially since there will be no lasting consequences here.)
That depends on your viewpoint. Trying to get the best possible result rather than compromising and going for the easy solution can be seen as being greedy.

Quote:
But Nisio believes that people who put on a facade of false perfection in order to deal with the fact that they sleep on the floor deserve to get beaten by their parents, so I'm not really surprised.
Where did you get this from? If you tell me Monogatari, I'll laugh.

Quote:
And I would certainly wonder how intentional this is. It really doesn't look like it's supposed to be ironic, having the monstrous bodyhopper scream MONSTER over and over again while beating someone to death. It's just... stupid.
I thought of it as ironic myself. Iihiko, an existence that's pretty much like a monster, is calling Medaka a monster because she's different from him, which is a pretty human thing to do, which is ironic, because Iihiko isn't really human either.
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Old 2013-02-07, 12:12   Link #11975
Qilin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
My problem is that while Medaka has purportedly changed as a character (as in that she is being self-sacrificing because she wants to be, not because it is the foundation of her existence) and is thus no longer a monster (as her being monstrous was because of her extreme selflessness while being unable to truly understand others which is not an opinion I entirely agree with but whatever) the characters are now treating her as though she hasn't changed at all.
Well, just to chime in, I'd say that what we have here is Medaka being selfish. While she appears to be no different from before, her actions at this point reflect how much she values everyone around her. She values them so much that she refuses to let go of any one of them. That's some greed right there. After all, the line between selfishness and selflessness lie within the intention behind the action.

So in the end, it seems Medaka has gone from one extreme to the other. The only thing that hasn't changed in this respect is how she absolutely refuses to compromise her position. So, no. It all makes perfect sense to me. If you want to argue about the execution, then that's a whole different matter...
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Old 2013-02-07, 12:44   Link #11976
kenjtr
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Medakas action recemble a pure action of a child she is just pestering everyone lol and thats why she is so unreasonable .
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Old 2013-02-07, 12:54   Link #11977
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It is indeed rather interesting how we all view Medaka. Is it really heroic to never give up? There's always that fine line that we straddle. Part of me felt Medaka was selfish("I'll definitely become friends with you"), while another part knew that Shiranui felt similarly so it should be alright...right? Should Medaka just meddle if Shiranui is genuinely fine with accepting her fate? When should we let someone decide their own fate, even if it seems detrimental?

Medaka is admirable because she constantly tries to defy constraints, but she's also a bit irritating in her stubbornness. Maybe I'm resigned, but she is a main character, a way to analyze the various roles that the characters are given.
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Old 2013-02-07, 13:15   Link #11978
Alpha Knight
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Medaka's portrayal as a person is to be equally loved and hated, and Nisio achieved this as he intended.
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Old 2013-02-07, 13:19   Link #11979
chidorimen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post

Where did you get this from? If you tell me Monogatari, I'll laugh.
Well it is straight out of Hanekawa's situation in Neko black.
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Old 2013-02-07, 13:27   Link #11980
Alpha Knight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
It is indeed rather interesting how we all view Medaka. Is it really heroic to never give up? There's always that fine line that we straddle. Part of me felt Medaka was selfish("I'll definitely become friends with you"), while another part knew that Shiranui felt similarly so it should be alright...right? Should Medaka just meddle if Shiranui is genuinely fine with accepting her fate? When should we let someone decide their own fate, even if it seems detrimental?

Medaka is admirable because she constantly tries to defy constraints, but she's also a bit irritating in her stubbornness. Maybe I'm resigned, but she is a main character, a way to analyze the various roles that the characters are given.
And that sums it up. She has good and bad points, but some people seem to only look at the bad points. Ever wondered why I can't hate her? It's simply because she's no different than any other person with a will of steel and an urge to protect the loved ones. The only reason why she is disliked by some is because she was born as Iihiko (what an irony btw) said: a monster with inmense power and seemingly unbeatable. Yet, in this battle, Medaka was defeated.
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