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Old 2013-02-07, 13:32   Link #11981
Endscape
The Mage of Four Hearts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chidorimen View Post
Well it is straight out of Hanekawa's situation in Neko black.
I know that. But he stated that Nisio believes Hanakawa deserved to get beaten by her parents, which is rubbish.
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Old 2013-02-07, 13:44   Link #11982
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
She values them so much that she refuses to let go of any one of them. That's some greed right there.
Trying to save your friend from being possessed by Satan even at the cost of your own life is admirable human behaviour. It's exactly what people should do in this sort of situation.
And, yet, she's still a 'monster'. Why? She's not doing it for the 'wrong' reasons anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
The only reason why she is disliked by some is because she was born as Iihiko (what an irony btw) said: a monster with inmense power and seemingly unbeatable.
I've said before, that's not why I dislike her. I dislike her because she's not a very believable or sympathetic character, she's poorly written, and whenever she appears she takes the spotlight from the characters who are believable, sympathetic, and well-written.
It has nothing to do with how powerful she is. Quit saying that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
Medaka's portrayal as a person is to be equally loved and hated, and Nisio achieved this as he intended.
The thing is that I'm not sure what his intentions are with her character and even the manga as a whole. But I don't know, maybe this is actually leading up to something. That said, if Nienami does anything other than give Medaka an opportunity to free Shiranui so that everyone can go home happy I'll be really surprised.
I really hope I can eat my words next week. Feel free to laugh at me if I do.
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Old 2013-02-07, 13:54   Link #11983
K. Shiruto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
That said, if Nienami does anything other than give Medaka an opportunity to free Shiranui so that everyone can go home happy I'll be really surprised.
I really hope I can eat my words next week. Feel free to laugh at me if I do.
Back then it was believed also impossible for Medaka to lose the election, remember.

This is quite the turning point. Not even once was she defeated fighing someoen before (Koga beating her due to the loss of her abnormality and her amnesia doesn't count), and now what. After facing off with a demon who can deal you damage that lasts for all eternity, with her stomach drilled and her body completely messed up, with nothing else but a style to support herself up. Perhaps is true that she's gonna die smiling.

Besides, Medaka winning would be equally or worse as Hanten warned her.

And releasing Shiranui is Zen's job.
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Old 2013-02-07, 13:57   Link #11984
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
Back then it was believed also impossible for Medaka to lose the election, remember.
Well, she lost the election, but she still won a moral victory, so...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
Perhaps is true that she's gonna die smiling.
She still has to go through the Kurokami Trials. She's going to survive this.
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Old 2013-02-07, 14:14   Link #11985
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Trying to save your friend from being possessed by Satan even at the cost of your own life is admirable human behaviour. It's exactly what people should do in this sort of situation.
Yes, it's what people should do, however most people wouldn't do that in the first place. They would have compromised, given up on Shiranui to save themselves. The fact that Medaka hasn't is why people are calling her greedy.

Quote:
And, yet, she's still a 'monster'. Why? She's not doing it for the 'wrong' reasons.
Who is the person calling her a monster again? It's Iihiko, a monster himself. That's the irony.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
Besides, Medaka winning would be equally or worse as Hanten warned her.

And releasing Shiranui is Zen's job.
You know, I figured Shiranui was going to save herself, actually.
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Old 2013-02-07, 14:20   Link #11986
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
The fact that Medaka hasn't is why people are calling her greedy.
So, acting in an ideal way makes you a bad person? What?
The whole problem with the way Medaka behaved before the election was that she was behaving that way for the wrong reasons. That's why calling her a monster back then made sense. Now it doesn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Who is the person calling her a monster again? It's Iihiko, a monster himself. That's the irony.
Right, and the Greek Chorus there in the back is agreeing with him. We're supposed to take this at face value.
As an aside, I really liked those two this chapter.
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Old 2013-02-07, 14:37   Link #11987
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
So, acting in an ideal way makes you a bad person? What?
The whole problem with the way Medaka behaved before the election was that she was behaving that way for the wrong reasons. That's why calling her a monster back then made sense. Now it doesn't.
I never said it makes you a bad person, I said that from a certain viewpoint, it can be seen as being greedy.

Quote:
Right, and the Greek Chorus there in the back is agreeing with him. We're supposed to take this at face value.
As an aside, I really liked those two this chapter.
The Greek Chorus? Oh, you mean Kotobuki, the woman who uses babies as hostages, and her accomplice, Kakegae?

Kotobuki, at least, is the same sort of monster as Fukurou, which is a different sort of monster from Iihiko, but still a monster, so forgive me if I don't take the fact that they agree with Iihiko to mean we should agree with Iihiko.
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Old 2013-02-07, 14:41   Link #11988
Spinell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
So, acting in an ideal way makes you a bad person? What?
The whole problem with the way Medaka behaved before the election was that she was behaving that way for the wrong reasons. That's why calling her a monster back then made sense. Now it doesn't.
From Iihikos point of view it makes sense. Shiranui copied Iihiko. Theres nothing left to fight over, even worse she would destroy in that fight the body of the person she tries to safe. If anything she could try to appeal to whats left of Shiranui. Thats what Nienamie will try, supported by her style, i predict.
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Old 2013-02-07, 14:59   Link #11989
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
I don't take the fact that they agree with Iihiko to mean we should agree with Iihiko.
Why not? Their purpose here was to exposit.
Well, maybe I'm wrong and next chapter we'll get some admittance that, no, Medaka should no longer be considered a monster. Then I will be satisfied.
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Old 2013-02-07, 15:07   Link #11990
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Why not? Their purpose here was to exposit.
Why not? Because morally speaking, their views are repugnant, and their reasoning is repugnant, so the fact that they agree with Iihiko is supposed to clue us in that Iihiko is wrong here.

Quote:
Well, maybe I'm wrong and next chapter we'll get some admittance that, no, Medaka should no longer be considered a monster. Then I will be satisfied.
I thought we got that a while back, but to each their own.
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Old 2013-02-07, 15:10   Link #11991
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Speaking of monsters I hope Fukurou comes back, beats Iihiko and proposes to the now Hansode-Iihiko. They'll make an excelent family . I won't put it beyond Fukurou..
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Old 2013-02-07, 15:30   Link #11992
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Why not? Because morally speaking, their views are repugnant, and their reasoning is repugnant, so the fact that they agree with Iihiko is supposed to clue us in that Iihiko is wrong here.
I don't think it's presented that way at all. Maybe I need to put more thought into this though, you're right.
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Old 2013-02-07, 15:42   Link #11993
Lupus753
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Ofttimes, it is difficult to differentiate between "obvious author stand-in soapboxing" and "we are supposed to not agree with these people, it is only their opinion". Especially since even villains can serve as the author's mouthpiece, on occasion.
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Old 2013-02-07, 18:06   Link #11994
Qilin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Trying to save your friend from being possessed by Satan even at the cost of your own life is admirable human behaviour. It's exactly what people should do in this sort of situation.
And, yet, she's still a 'monster'. Why? She's not doing it for the 'wrong' reasons anymore.
The action being admirable doesn't make the motivation any less selfish though.

Yep. This is no longer a matter of her being selfish or selfless anymore. By virtue of her sheer stubbornness, her absolute refusal to submit to anyone else's standards, she's a monster right down to the core. Take note that calling her a "monster" doesn't mean that she's an abhorrent person, but rather that she's completely alien to the idea of humanity. She's too perfect a person, right down to her unshakeable will. Even Iiihiko, who used to a hero, couldn't keep fighting until the end.
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Old 2013-02-07, 18:21   Link #11995
K. Shiruto
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^And here I thought I was the only one who thought that. Shame rep is disabled.
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Old 2013-02-07, 19:20   Link #11996
novalysis
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Then replace monster with inhuman. Monster is a loaded and highly misleading term with implications of morality.
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Old 2013-02-07, 20:45   Link #11997
OmegaShadow
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Well, her heart has been destroyed. There's a hole that has the size of a hand with pretty sharp claws in her stomach. Her body is covered in injuries since her fight against Iihiko in Shiranui village - who used nothing more than glasses to utterly defeat her. She saw her attack being reflected, and right after she came back and used her final trump card...Iihiko just came back, possessing Shiranui's body. Right after, he blocked her strongest attack with nothing more than a single finger. In my point of view this is already more than enough for someone to despair, but Iihiko went as far as killing(?) her friends right in front of her...And she was still trying to stop him.

...After all this, you can't really blame Iihiko for calling her a monster. At this point, a lot of heroes would be probably reaching the despair event horizon.
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Old 2013-02-07, 20:50   Link #11998
Lupus753
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I thought it was expected for Shonen heroes to never give up, never fold even if they have absolutely no logical reason to continue. Shonen heroes must be terrible at poker.
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Old 2013-02-07, 21:28   Link #11999
runset
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Originally Posted by Lupus753 View Post
I thought it was expected for Shonen heroes to never give up, never fold even if they have absolutely no logical reason to continue. Shonen heroes must be terrible at poker.
that's true, but the reason why they never give up and never fold even if they have absolutely no logical reason to continue is because they have purpose. the purpose usually is about "for my friend" or "to "protect something", if the purpose was lost then do you expect them to continue. (like ichigo from bleach when all of his friend memories were modified)
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Old 2013-02-07, 22:11   Link #12000
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
Then replace monster with inhuman. Monster is a loaded and highly misleading term with implications of morality.
This, although I don't know the Japanese term they're using.
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