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Old 2013-02-06, 23:58   Link #1301
Kudryavka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warm Mist View Post
...that's what I'm saying. The first part of the post is addressed at some of the comments above, while the MAD is just an example of Kyoani's definitely above average animation.

And I dig Nichijou's designs, what's the problem with them?
Nothing's wrong with them. But they look plain, which is on purpose, so that's not a bad thing, it actually would be weird if they weren't average designs considering the whole point of the show. Plain at least compared to anime with intricate clothing and hair designs and hair highlights and all that jazz.

And ok, I think I read the video as if you were showing an example of bad KyoAni animation. I'm sorry if that is not what you meant.
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Old 2013-02-07, 00:06   Link #1302
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I'd have to be utterly insane to take that video as a display of bad animation, lol. And I don't even think the selection of cuts of that AMV is the best one, there were far more impressive things in the show not just on a framerate/technical level, but on stylization too (the "1920's Disney" like scene with the house of cards comes to mind).
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Old 2013-02-07, 00:11   Link #1303
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Originally Posted by Warm Mist View Post
I'd have to be utterly insane to take that video as a display of bad animation, lol. And I don't even think the selection of cuts of that AMV is the best one, there were far more impressive things in the show not just on a framerate/technical level, but on stylization too (the "1920's Disney" like scene with the house of cards comes to mind).
Ok, I thought you were saying the complete opposite of what you were actually saying. I apologize
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Old 2013-02-07, 13:34   Link #1304
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Well, if you really want to see an example of "bad" Kyoani animation, then I suggest watching The Adventures of Mikuru Asahina Episode 0 (and then ponder on how "good" a studio is to make it look so "bad")
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Old 2013-02-07, 13:45   Link #1305
Kudryavka
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Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
Well, if you really want to see an example of "bad" Kyoani animation, then I suggest watching The Adventures of Mikuru Asahina Episode 0 (and then ponder on how "good" a studio is to make it look so "bad")
lol, I applaud you...

So good it's bad?
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Old 2013-02-07, 13:55   Link #1306
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That was the intention, as opposed to *Insert Deen Bashing Here*
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Old 2013-02-07, 13:56   Link #1307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
Well, if you really want to see an example of "bad" Kyoani animation, then I suggest watching The Adventures of Mikuru Asahina Episode 0 (and then ponder on how "good" a studio is to make it look so "bad")
That's not an example of bad animation though, rather than a deliberate case of bad camera work, scene setting, and acting. You can see a similar exceptionally good example of imitating poor/amateur film-making in Hyouka.
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Old 2013-02-07, 14:01   Link #1308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
That's not an example of bad animation though, rather than a deliberate case of bad camera work, scene setting, and acting
I think what CrowKenobi meant was KyoAni made something "bad" on purpose, which makes them "good"

... that sounded a little confusing

to further explain
if you haven't watched Haruhi, you wouldn't understand
that episode was where they showed the movie which the SOS Brigade made for the cultural festival, I think. Since they're amateurs, it would technically be bad. So KyoAni animated something bad to make it look realistic.
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Old 2013-02-07, 15:38   Link #1309
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Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
That's not an example of bad animation though, rather than a deliberate case of bad camera work, scene setting, and acting. You can see a similar exceptionally good example of imitating poor/amateur film-making in Hyouka.
That was the joke, Temp. In order to make it look like some kids just picked up a $50 camera and started filming, they animated it to include blurs, unsteadiness, strange angles, etc., all of which are harder to animate than a "good" scene.

So, so good it actually looks bad.
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Old 2013-02-07, 16:08   Link #1310
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The animation for that scene is the same as for any other, the fancy part is the digital post-processing it went through. One could argue it's hard to properly animate a badly-acting person, but I'd say it's not fundamentally more difficult than normal everyday acting animation.

There probably are examples of purposefully "bad" animation somewhere, but I can't be arsed to find some now. Maybe some Helvetica Standard segment from Nichijou?
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Old 2013-02-07, 19:09   Link #1311
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I watched 2 episodes of Tamako Market this week, and was very unimpressed. It just felt kind of shallow, like it was being made by a group of students who were assigned some homework and tried to get done with it quickly.

What I think is that KyoAni's animation used to be very good, when they were making the Key "trilogy", and Haruhi. But since then, there was a visible drop. It's easy to realize this when you compare the episode when Haruhi is singing God Knows with the last episode of K-On, when the band is playing.

Besides, there's also Lucky Star, for example. You can't really say it had amazing animation. It gets the job done, all right, but it's not difficult to get the job done with such a simplistic art style. And the same applies to Nichijou.

And one of my main beefs is that recently, every series they've been making feels "K-Onified", specially the character designs, which all look the same. I'm watching Little Busters nowadays, and sometimes I'm glad it's being made by JC Staff. The animation may not be in the levels of Clannad and Air, but it's still better than if it was being made by current-day KyoAni.
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Old 2013-02-07, 19:24   Link #1312
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Wow, please sto talking about animation

Signed people who know what animation is.

The only correct thing you said in that post was god knows > k-on band scene as well as kyoani key > LB.
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Old 2013-02-07, 19:27   Link #1313
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Wow, please sto talking about animation

Signed people who know what animation is.

The only correct thing you said in that post was god knows > k-on band scene as well as kyoani key > LB.
Fluidity is not the end all be all of an animation experience. Otherwise we should just stare at stick figures all day. K-ON is just absolutely horrid to look at. On the other hand, Hyouka was quite a pleasure.
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Old 2013-02-07, 20:10   Link #1314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Fluidity is not the end all be all of an animation experience. Otherwise we should just stare at stick figures all day. K-ON is just absolutely horrid to look at. On the other hand, Hyouka was quite a pleasure.
To me the sentence you're looking for is "there's more to good visuals than good animation"

The stick figure might be very well animated but a stick figure isn't very visually appealing so overall the visual experience isn't great.

So for example I can say I love Jojo visually but never would I say it has good animation
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Old 2013-02-07, 20:41   Link #1315
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That's more broad than what I was getting at.

Certainly a visual experience is more than just animation, but animating stick figures is a lot easier than animating say the art style in something like Legend of the Galactic Heroes. K-ON has a very simplified art style for its characters, which makes it more fluid than something like even Haruhi, but I see this as a sacrifice in visual quality. Now if I could see more things animated at the level of K-ON or Hyouka, but with a more complex and interesting art style (Think Redline for example), that's truly impressive to me.
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Old 2013-02-07, 21:22   Link #1316
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Key trilogy is better animated than K-On!... oh god.

Kyoani only started to be truly remarkable animation-wise with K-On!. Before that, they just made very well produced shows with a good budget and schedule, but there was nothing really interesting besides very specific events like God Knows, Clannad AS's fight scene, or the Anime Tencho scenes from LS.
For me, from K-On! onwards they have developed a clear style of animating, which is unique to them (unlike what they had been doing previously) and infinitely more interesting than the stiff Key-based animation they had been doing. Disregarding K-On!'s character designs because they're simple is like disregarding Yuasa's style because "he can't draw", for god's sake.
It's okay if you barely enjoy animation, but K-On!!'s (and Yuasa lol) animation is insanely impressive by any standards. Redline has its place in the enormous spectrum of different approaches to movement, and it's not next to K-On! and Hyouka. Comparing the two is just limited; or what, did you want a fluffy iyashikei show to feature something like Redline's character designs?
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Old 2013-02-07, 21:24   Link #1317
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^ "Kyoani only started to be truly remarkable animation-wise with K-On!"
Saying that is disregarding a lot of their earlier works which is what paved the way for their massive reputation in the first place. Air, TSR, Haruhi, Clannad, Kanon were all outstandingly animated, some more than others. I don't think it's fair say that they're all short of being remarkable if at all (especially when taking into account the time when they were produced), at least to the point where the 1st K-ON! season is supposedly any more remarkable than those.


Redline was a rather peculiar case as it them took 7 years if not more to finish, with the latter 3 and a half just spent on cranking out drawings alone since that was the only thing left to be done by that point. It was a high budgeted movie that received a lot of development leeway with every single frame and every meticulous detail being hand-drawn. It's one of those things that comes around once every blue moon. We probably won't be seeing something like it being produced anytime soon I don't think (except perhaps maybe on a smaller scale).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Keichi View Post
....when you compare the episode when Haruhi is singing God Knows with the last episode of K-On, when the band is playing.

Besides, there's also Lucky Star, for example. You can't really say it had amazing animation. It gets the job done, all right, but it's not difficult to get the job done with such a simplistic art style. And the same applies to Nichijou.
You're seriously lumping the animation in Nichijou on the same level as Lucky Star?

The Haruhi concert scene looked so good because they decided to rotoscope it (i.e trace the drawings from real life footage). Who knows how much extra time and effort that required, but probably much more than they were willing to spend on K-ON at that point.
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Last edited by brocko; 2013-02-07 at 21:39.
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Old 2013-02-07, 22:31   Link #1318
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Originally Posted by brocko View Post
^ "Kyoani only started to be truly remarkable animation-wise with K-On!"
Saying that is disregarding a lot of their earlier works which is what paved the way for their massive reputation in the first place. Air, TSR, Haruhi, Clannad, Kanon were all outstandingly animated, some more than others. I don't think it's fair say that they're all short of being remarkable if at all (especially when taking into account the time when they were produced), at least to the point where the 1st K-ON! season is supposedly any more remarkable than those.
Kyoani was certainly well-appreciated and produced really high-quality works since it started, it has always been Kigami's studio after all. What I mean is that their early shows are in the vein of the other works in the industry, just much more polished due to the nature of the studio, high budgets and good schedules. Of course it was totally necessary for them to later develop into what they're today, Horiguchi was probably immensely influenced by Kigami, as did everyone else in the studio.
K-On! is more remarkable than anything before it because its style is unique within the industry, and a result of years of Kyoani polishing their craft to make it work so well and achieve an amazing consistency from episode to episode.

I'm not the only one who thinks this, seeing as how K-On! was the first Kyoani TV entry to appear on the sakuga@wiki list of well-animated shows* (the other Kyoani shows in there are Hyouka, Nichijou and the Munto OVA which was literally intended as an animation showcase).
Not just that, but Toshiyuki Inoue (a man who knows more about animation than we here could ever aspire to) pointed this difference in an interview where he talked about K-On! and Kyoani in general.

So yeah, K-On! was definitely a breakthrough project for the studio in terms of animation.

*In english, although it's outdated.
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Old 2013-02-08, 00:18   Link #1319
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Originally Posted by Leo Keichi View Post
I watched 2 episodes of Tamako Market this week, and was very unimpressed. It just felt kind of shallow, like it was being made by a group of students who were assigned some homework and tried to get done with it quickly.

What I think is that KyoAni's animation used to be very good, when they were making the Key "trilogy", and Haruhi. But since then, there was a visible drop. It's easy to realize this when you compare the episode when Haruhi is singing God Knows with the last episode of K-On, when the band is playing.

Besides, there's also Lucky Star, for example. You can't really say it had amazing animation. It gets the job done, all right, but it's not difficult to get the job done with such a simplistic art style. And the same applies to Nichijou.

And one of my main beefs is that recently, every series they've been making feels "K-Onified", specially the character designs, which all look the same. I'm watching Little Busters nowadays, and sometimes I'm glad it's being made by JC Staff. The animation may not be in the levels of Clannad and Air, but it's still better than if it was being made by current-day KyoAni.
I agree that KyoAni's animation has a very recognizable look to it, partly due to the studio doing minimal outsourcing/freelancing. But I wouldn't go as far to say that the "character designs ... all look the same".

Images
I don't own this picture, but it illustrates the different art styles quite well
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

And I was really blown away by Hyouka and Nichijou's animation and art. I thought that their animation was more consistent and better on average than any of the previous TV series animated by KyoAni that I've seen. And both series looked very different in art style from K-On/Tamako Market, as well as having a difference in approach to animation styles.

I hope I don't sound like a KyoAni fanboy in this post. Their recent conversion from a studio that merely does contract work to a studio that creates its own special IP to animate has resulted in a few very esoteric anime that I can't say I truly enjoyed (Hyouka was the only show I watched by them lately that I can call "good"). But I do think that their animation has become especially refined in recent years.
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Old 2013-02-08, 01:37   Link #1320
Westlo
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Fluidity is not the end all be all of an animation experience. Otherwise we should just stare at stick figures all day. K-ON is just absolutely horrid to look at. On the other hand, Hyouka was quite a pleasure.
You do realize I'm talking to a Key fan saying that J.C Staff's Little Busters >> KyoAni's recent works in regards to animation (strictly animation, not overall animation or should I say Visual Experience) which includes Hyouka? No matter how you slice it Hyouka is superior in every aspect except for character design which comes down to taste. Fluidity/motion, cinematography, backgrounds, character animation, it even has a sense of space and dimensionality.

And really if people want to talk about the visual look as a whole can they like you know, actually say "I like the visual look of <insert show> over <insert show> instead of saying animation. Because instead of actually debating the merits of the animation we end up in some stupid debate about what animation means. Also it's fine if you like you static paintings over fluid stick figures (if you want to go to one extreme, lets go to the other) but some shows/studios find the right balance a heck of a lot more than others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
And I was really blown away by Hyouka and Nichijou's animation and art. I thought that their animation was more consistent and better on average than any of the previous TV series animated by KyoAni that I've seen. And both series looked very different in art style from K-On/Tamako Market, as well as having a difference in approach to animation styles.

I hope I don't sound like a KyoAni fanboy in this post. Their recent conversion from a studio that merely does contract work to a studio that creates its own special IP to animate has resulted in a few very esoteric anime that I can't say I truly enjoyed (Hyouka was the only show I watched by them lately that I can call "good"). But I do think that their animation has become especially refined in recent years.
Pretty much how I feel... heck as much as I like to make fun of Nichijou being a complete bomb when I post on NeoGAF, I would never deny the level of animation it had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warm Mist View Post
Not just that, but Toshiyuki Inoue (a man who knows more about animation than we here could ever aspire to) pointed this difference in an interview where he talked about K-On! and Kyoani in general.
Nah man it doesn't count, that got posted here before and the haterz summarized it as Inoue "the perfect animator" Toshiyuki looking for a job at Kyoto Animation.

Last edited by Westlo; 2013-02-08 at 02:04.
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