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Old 2013-02-07, 00:56   Link #1321
Sheba
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
No it hasn't been mentioned (yet), so it's going to be considered a spoiler. Edit your posts, boys!

Reckoner: The term used in the novel I think is Mazoku (hahaha, brings back Slayers memories doesn't it?), which IS a blanket-term for all non-human magical races. So a werewolf or a faerie will still be called a demon by a human, because the average human in this world doesn't see the difference.
There is also the fact that Japan don't view "demons" as strictly as judeo-christians does.
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Old 2013-02-07, 01:17   Link #1322
Marcus H.
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Read fukarming’s post carefully. “the use of music, camera angle to build tension” not necessarily have to equal JoJo’s exaggeration style. Some dialogue scenes can be both calm and engaging. It all depends on good execution. Have you seen dialogues in Tarrantino movies like Inglourious Basterds or in Wachowski’s The Matrix or maybe dialogues in Death Note and Code Geass? (just to give you obvious examples).
The Jojo example is an exaggeration. Oh, and I haven't watched all of those examples, sorry.

I'll just drop this here. I don't know these people, but can someone say how these people affected the direction of this series?

Script: Naruhisa Arakawa (eps 1-5)
Storyboard:
Junya Koshiba (ep 4)
Takeo Takahashi (OP; ED; eps 1, 3, 5)
Toshiya Niidome (ep 2)
Episode Director:
Hijiri Sanpei (ep 1)
Hiroaki Nishimura (ep 4)
Junya Koshiba (ep 5)
Mitsuru Takada (ep 3)
Taiji Kawanishi (ep 2)
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Old 2013-02-07, 01:57   Link #1323
Obelisk ze Tormentor
Black Steel Knight
 
 
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
The Jojo example is an exaggeration. Oh, and I haven't watched all of those examples, sorry.
You haven't watch even The Matrix? Well, if that's so, too bad then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
I'll just drop this here. I don't know these people, but can someone say how these people affected the direction of this series?

Script: Naruhisa Arakawa (eps 1-5)
Storyboard:
Junya Koshiba (ep 4)
Takeo Takahashi (OP; ED; eps 1, 3, 5)
Toshiya Niidome (ep 2)
Episode Director:
Hijiri Sanpei (ep 1)
Hiroaki Nishimura (ep 4)
Junya Koshiba (ep 5)
Mitsuru Takada (ep 3)
Taiji Kawanishi (ep 2)
If this data is true then now I'm able to know who's responsible for the blandness of this anime. The scriptwriter and episode director are probably the ones most responsible for the bad execution of Maoyuu. Episode 1 was nice enough though, so "bravo Hijiri Sanpei!" I guess.
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Old 2013-02-07, 02:32   Link #1324
GundamZZ
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post

I'll just drop this here. I don't know these people, but can someone say how these people affected the direction of this series?
Oh yeah, I'll drop this series, too, when there is not more episode to show. If they are going for the second season, I'll drop this series after the second season is over...unless they have the third season. I'll repeat this claim as you... for trolling other viewers.
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Old 2013-02-07, 02:33   Link #1325
Marcus H.
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You haven't watch even The Matrix? Well, if that's so, too bad then.
I think I've watched parts of it, but not the whole thing yet.

Quote:
If this data is true then now I'm able to know who's responsible for the blandness of this anime. The scriptwriter and episode director are probably the ones most responsible for the bad execution of Maoyuu. Episode 1 was nice enough though, so "bravo Hijiri Sanpei!" I guess.
Those people did work on a lot of old series, though. I wonder what happened. I guess that most of their works aren't that much of a bestseller as the others.

Quote:
Oh yeah, I'll drop this series, too, when there is not more episode to show. If they are going for the second season, I'll drop this series after the second season is over...unless they have the third season. I'll repeat this claim as you... for trolling other viewers.
Waitwaitwait! I'm not dropping the series yet!
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Old 2013-02-07, 03:27   Link #1326
zRichard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Faith View Post
And I have to agree with Obelisk, just because she's a supernatural entity it doesn't mean that her lifespan is longer. Usually demons live longer, but they usually don't behave like a teenage girl.
What I'm saying is that you can't apply common sense to a being that's not human. Being long lived is not "cheating" and shouldn't come as a far fetched idea.

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Originally Posted by Dark Faith View Post
I remember this scene in the anime.. except it stopped at "I've been waiting for a long time.". Which in turn says wonders about the adaptation since it keeps forgetting to mention these tidbits of information and manga readers end up spoiling it without noticing.
I'm sure that scene was going to be shown in the future. At this point of the manga, you don't really get how long Maou had waited (same as anime viewers). So yeah, XFire's post is a minor spoiler.
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Old 2013-02-07, 03:42   Link #1327
Obelisk ze Tormentor
Black Steel Knight
 
 
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Those people did work on a lot of old series, though. I wonder what happened. I guess that most of their works aren't that much of a bestseller as the others.
Btw, does the list mean Naruhisa Arakawa will take his leave after episode 5? If so, then this series will have a chance to get better as long as the next writer and directors realize the previous episodes' mistakes and do a better job. Anybody here know the rating of the first 5 episodes?
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Old 2013-02-07, 11:26   Link #1328
Gohan78
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
EDIT: Re-watched the episode. And yes it's implied but I think it's still a weak reference to her long life-span. Why didn't the anime producer made Hero say it clearly?
Anime-only watcher here. I didn't get that Maou is long-lived from that dialogue. I thought that the Hero was imagining his own death in battle. His supposed invulnerability didn't cross my mind because the anime stubbornly refuses to show us any battle involving the Hero. Sigh.
The director keeps leaving out this bits of information that are so important for the characterization. No wonder then that the characters feel flat.

As for the debate over the demons being similar to humans, I don't mind. I just see the two races as Axis and Allies during WW2 or Russians and Americans during the Cold War. Each part thought that the others were child-eating monsters, while in reality we are all humans.

The problems of this anime IMHO are others: the rushed pacing, leaving out important details, the narration heavily skewed in Maou's favor. Not terrible by any means but it's disapppointing because I can see that with a little more effort this anime could go from average to good.
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Old 2013-02-07, 12:02   Link #1329
Daniel E.
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
I don't find the series boring at all. I'm an anime-only viewer.
Same here. I just started watching this and I am enjoying the show a lot.
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Old 2013-02-07, 19:18   Link #1330
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
I am an anime-only viewer and all I know about this title comes from the anime.

Apparently demons have different races within them as well. We already have seen an episode where the demon's appearance looks inhuman enough. But I agree that Maou and her head maid (who are apparently from the same tribe) should have a distinguishing physical feature to indicate their "demon"ness. In a setting where humans can also learn magic and can actually be more powerful than the demons, the demons can't have a perfectly human body and be a demon with just their demonic powers alone (because indeed it would be pointless to call them 'demons').
Yeah but our main cast demons aren't, which is the whole damn problem I have. It makes the coming together of the Hero and the DQ seem artificial. Of course the their romance happens to also be gag worthy to me, so that doesn't help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post
These are the reasons the story gives for not being able to end the war:
1. Certain special interest groups like the benefits they derive from war. E.g. the Merchants Alliance gain profits from trade; the Church becomes an influential leader; supplies flow to contested territories that have low food production; etc.

2. The economy of the human society is structured to accommodate the ongoing war, to the point that there would be great social unrest of the war were to suddenly end.

3. The two sides are indoctrinated to despise each other.

None of these reasons require that the sides be actually different, but they represent very real obstacles to peace.
There are lot of problems I have with the premise here. The entire premise seems to be built upon the Broken Window Fallacy. To me this is an already shaky basis for the premise, but even after that there are more issues.

First she mentions that humans would have difficulty feeding their population during peace time. This is just flat out strange since if this really is a pseudo-medieval period then this would not be an issue at all. There are sometimes famines, yes, but famines never sustain themselves long enough to flat out wipe out an entire population. Furthermore, even if they had destructive power they would be no more damaging than an actual war.

Another issue here is that unlike the US economy which is based on the faith standard, I'd imagine such an economy here would be based on some sort of precious metal which is finite. There is no way for a nation to sustain itself in war of this apparent magnitude, for a prolonged period. Not to mention the population crunch alone should also halt it.

She also mentions that ending the war would cause problems since the soldiers returning home would have no jobs to return to. This somehow implies that in the absence of men in the population, there has been a upswell in population among the civilians remaining to fill in those job gaps. This is rather dubious to assert considering the length of the war and the cost of lives.

As for the demon side. Well we don't even know that much about them so there is just a bunch of hand waving done to assure us that'd it be a problem for them too. The main reason given is that the demons would start warring with themselves. Yet she said the demons are tired of war, too, and would probably stop if it were not for these supposed internal necessities. Wouldn't this imply that there are demons that value their lives and existence as much as humans value theirs? The fact that the demons would suddenly turn to infighting seems rather questionable. Of course, we don't know crap about the demon world, so hand waving it is.

TL;DR the premise is garbage.

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Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post
You have already answered for yourself why use such a metaphor: It uses such a metaphor because the story relies on the connotation of the word "demon" to convey how much the two groups hate each other. Using fictional races of humans fail to convey the immediacy of this hatred--it requires substantial time to be spent building the hate between the two when it can be conveyed by shorthand by labeling one side demons. Using real ethnic groups carries all sorts of unpleasant connotations to the groups involved and conveys nothing to people unfamiliar with those ethnic groups.
Yeah this is also what I mean by demons only being demons when it is convenient for the story. Otherwise demons are people too!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
No it hasn't been mentioned (yet), so it's going to be considered a spoiler. Edit your posts, boys!

Reckoner: The term used in the novel I think is Mazoku (hahaha, brings back Slayers memories doesn't it?), which IS a blanket-term for all non-human magical races. So a werewolf or a faerie will still be called a demon by a human, because the average human in this world doesn't see the difference.
Well this kind of all goes back to way the setting is setup. It's clearly a pseudo-medievalist world. Then they're throwing around the term "demon" and have things like a church around. Is it not natural to assume that demon is closer to the western interpretation in this setting? If not they better make themselves damn clear, which they haven't really.
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Old 2013-02-07, 20:01   Link #1331
Obelisk ze Tormentor
Black Steel Knight
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Well this kind of all goes back to way the setting is setup. It's clearly a pseudo-medievalist world. Then they're throwing around the term "demon" and have things like a church around. Is it not natural to assume that demon is closer to the western interpretation in this setting? If not they better make themselves damn clear, which they haven't really.
The thing is, if you go by the western or Christian interpretation, demons are basically those evil creatures who hates God (and know He exists). In Maoyuu, even the Demon Queen herself don’t know whether God exist or not (see eps 3). In that eps, DQ were surprised when Hero said that he can communicate with God (Light Spirit). She basically thought that God is an imaginary creature that don’t exist, much like Santa Claus and his flying reindeers . In other words, it’s already established (in eps 3 if you may) that these “demons” aren’t your usual Western/Christian demons. They’re just creatures of many races that the humans lumped together under the name “demons”. They’re more like “non-human” race you usually see in TLOTR and other RPGs (elf, fairies, dwarf, etc), except they also include some monsters too (dragons, harpies, slime, giant squids, etc). In short, “demon” here is pretty much a generalization of “non-human beings”. It’s also like that in the source novel. So, if you can’t accept this premise, then I don’t think this story is for you.
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Old 2013-02-07, 21:58   Link #1332
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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There is also the point that the Church in this anime, and the religion they follow, is unrelated to the Goddess who actually exists.

As in, the deity is real, but the religion isn't.
Because no one is interested in actually listen to the deity, they worship for their own benefit only, making their own interpretations to benefit themselves. The Hero is the only one we know who has any real link to the goddess.

The Church has faith, but no god. The Hero has god, and thus had no need for faith.
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Old 2013-02-07, 22:36   Link #1333
Myssa Rei
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Is it not natural to assume that demon is closer to the western interpretation in this setting?
I don't, because the Japanese terms used are VERY specific. The traditional "demon" in Western terms is, as mentioned, "akuma". Nowhere in the anime was this ever used, and neither are the usual terms used for "evil" or hostile-to-human beings -- ayakashi, yurei, youkai, or obake. The problem comes with the English word the translation went with, which is demon, which obviously has a lot of connotations for the Western fantasy viewer.

The Hero's trip to the Demon World was supposed to highlight that, yeah, these aren't a single species, but wildly different tribes with different origins sharing a small piece of real estate, but alas, it wasn't shown.
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Old 2013-02-07, 22:59   Link #1334
Dark Faith
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
As in, the deity is real, but the religion isn't.[/B] Because no one is interested in actually listen to the deity, they worship for their own benefit only, making their own interpretations to benefit themselves.
When was this shown ?
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Old 2013-02-07, 23:44   Link #1335
Graveyard Duck
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
There are lot of problems I have with the premise here. The entire premise seems to be built upon the Broken Window Fallacy. To me this is an already shaky basis for the premise, but even after that there are more issues.
Let us ignore, for the moment, the criticisms listed in the article you linked and assume that the broken window fallacy is true. The broken window fallacy does not apply to the first reason, because the broken window fallacy is a criticism against the alleged benefit to the community from having the window broken. The broken window fallacy says nothing about the benefit to particular groups within the economy. That a community fails to benefit from the broken window does not suggest that the glazier does not benefit from the broken window. Similarly, that the human society does not benefit from the war does not imply that special interest groups like the Merchant Alliance and the Church do not benefit from the war.

Quote:
Another issue here is that unlike the US economy which is based on the faith standard, I'd imagine such an economy here would be based on some sort of precious metal which is finite. There is no way for a nation to sustain itself in war of this apparent magnitude, for a prolonged period.
You imagine incorrectly. The aristocracy of Medieval Europe funded the Crusades by mortgaging their land to a credit-based financial system that includes merchants, Jews (bankers), and Knights Templar. The Crusades were a lot longer than the 15 years war in Maoyu.

Quote:
She also mentions that ending the war would cause problems since the soldiers returning home would have no jobs to return to. This somehow implies that in the absence of men in the population, there has been a upswell in population among the civilians remaining to fill in those job gaps. This is rather dubious to assert considering the length of the war and the cost of lives.
The length of the war is 15 years. Pay attention to the narration at the beginning of episode 1, the end of episode 2, and the numbers counted at the start of episode 5. They point to a very limited conflict: One or two large movements to take strategic points: Gate City and Bright Light Islands. Afterward, there were only sporadic border skirmishes. This is why the soldiers in Gate City were able to sit comfortably. This is why the 6000 soldier expedition is seen as a huge undertaking. This is why the loss of lives is quite limited. However, the threat of war is sufficient that there must be a standing army--one that has no role in civilian society to return to because society has adjusted to having a standing army.

Quote:
The main reason given is that the demons would start warring with themselves. Yet she said the demons are tired of war, too, and would probably stop if it were not for these supposed internal necessities. Wouldn't this imply that there are demons that value their lives and existence as much as humans value theirs? The fact that the demons would suddenly turn to infighting seems rather questionable. Of course, we don't know crap about the demon world, so hand waving it is.
She does not claim either side is tired of the war. She merely points out the difficulties of stopping the war in an abrupt fashion without significant changes to their societies. As for the state of the demon society post war, it is a well-known fact of history that societies in conflict with each other that band together out of necessity will quickly fall back to conflict once the necessity ends--unless there has been significant changes to the society as a result of cooperation. It happened to the Greeks after they repelled the Persians. It happened to Europe after the Crusades. It happened to Europe after defeating Napoleon. And it happened to the Allies after defeating the Axis. The series merely fiats what we can easily observe in our history.

Quote:
Yeah this is also what I mean by demons only being demons when it is convenient for the story. Otherwise demons are people too!
"Convenient" is the incorrect word here. "Necessary" is the correct choice, as the alternative of using humans fails to convey the connotations the setting requires.

Quote:
Well this kind of all goes back to way the setting is setup. It's clearly a pseudo-medievalist world. Then they're throwing around the term "demon" and have things like a church around. Is it not natural to assume that demon is closer to the western interpretation in this setting? If not they better make themselves damn clear, which they haven't really.
As a term used by Christians--not in the Christian canons--, the term demon encompasses supernatural creatures other than Satan's fellow evil denizens of Hell. For example, in Personal Recollections of Joan of Arc by Mark Twain, the story presents a local priest who classifies fairies as demons, though Joan later proved that they were merely harmless spirits who have not found God.
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Old 2013-02-08, 00:28   Link #1336
Anime Online
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Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post
However, the threat of war is sufficient that there must be a standing army--one that has no role in civilian society to return to because society has adjusted to having a standing army.

This information is not present in the anime. Is it present elsewhere or are you simply assuming? I do not think it is logical for a country that lack even the basic ability to feed itself to have the resources to feed, train, equip and maintain a standing army. This isn't North Korea, who hoarded all the resources for their military and left the people to starve.

It would be more logical to assume the soldiers in the southern kingdoms were peasants who were drafted.
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Old 2013-02-08, 01:17   Link #1337
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Originally Posted by Anime Online View Post
This information is not present in the anime. Is it present elsewhere or are you simply assuming? I do not think it is logical for a country that lack even the basic ability to feed itself to have the resources to feed, train, equip and maintain a standing army. This isn't North Korea, who hoarded all the resources for their military and left the people to starve.

It would be more logical to assume the soldiers in the southern kingdoms were peasants who were drafted.
tat is the point, the Southern Countries don't normally have the resources to keep a large standing army. They are being subsidize. by richer countries who use the Southern Countries as shields to the effect of the war. The downside of which is that the Southern Countries are completely dependent on the subsidies form the rich countries. If the war stops no more subsidies. The Southern Countries would then fall into chaos.
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Old 2013-02-08, 01:38   Link #1338
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
There is also the point that the Church in this anime, and the religion they follow, is unrelated to the Goddess who actually exists.

As in, the deity is real, but the religion isn't.
Because no one is interested in actually listen to the deity, they worship for their own benefit only, making their own interpretations to benefit themselves. The Hero is the only one we know who has any real link to the goddess.

The Church has faith, but no god. The Hero has god, and thus had no need for faith.
I don't quite follow this logic. Isn't it more like the deity isn't really "real" but the religion is? That's why they can make their own personal interpretations. As far as I can tell, that feeling Hero felt when he's fighting could very well be something else entirely. I mean, Hero has no way to know for sure that it really was the Spirit that he felt, right?

Actually, before that, there's something I don't quite understand. Why did the Hero corrected Maou when she mentioned God? Does this mean that the church didn't really worship a "creator" God or that Hero meant that he referred to a different entity from what the church worship?
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Old 2013-02-08, 01:39   Link #1339
Graveyard Duck
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Originally Posted by Anime Online View Post
This information is not present in the anime. Is it present elsewhere or are you simply assuming? I do not think it is logical for a country that lack even the basic ability to feed itself to have the resources to feed, train, equip and maintain a standing army.
The military information can be inferred from information in episode 5: The Crusade of the Holy Key controls the Gate City, with four armies stationed around the city and entering the city to guard it on a rotation. The soldiers that were seen are in full armor, with some loafing in the pubs on a regular basis. Gate City is a territory taken from the demons. This kind of occupation force is not going to be a peasant militia raised by the local lord. It is a standing army.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Why did the Hero corrected Maou when she mentioned God? Does this mean that the church didn't really worship a "creator" God or that Hero meant that he referred to a different entity from what the church worship?
It could be something as simple as wanting to call her by the proper term of reference. Also, I believe the correction part is not in the anime, because the Demon King never used God to refer to the Spirit of Light.
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Old 2013-02-08, 02:28   Link #1340
Obelisk ze Tormentor
Black Steel Knight
 
 
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
I don't quite follow this logic. Isn't it more like the deity isn't really "real" but the religion is? That's why they can make their own personal interpretations. As far as I can tell, that feeling Hero felt when he's fighting could very well be something else entirely. I mean, Hero has no way to know for sure that it really was the Spirit that he felt, right?

Actually, before that, there's something I don't quite understand. Why did the Hero corrected Maou when she mentioned God? Does this mean that the church didn't really worship a "creator" God or that Hero meant that he referred to a different entity from what the church worship?
IIRC from the manga, Maou refers to the almighty being as "God" (which she herself doesn’t believe S/He exists) while both the church and Hero call the almighty being as "Spirit of Light". In this case, Hero doesn’t have “faith” like the people of the church since he already able to “converse” with the Spirit without doing prayers or things like that (and yes, Hero is sure that it’s the Spirit who “converse” with him. He even consider Her kinda like a buddy ). So, Hero correcting Maou is only for the terms used to refer the almighty, while both “God” and “Light Spirit” are basically the same.
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