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Old 2013-02-07, 00:15   Link #5841
Skye629
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Originally Posted by amaterasu4 View Post
Hey I actually defend Freedom vs Impulse. Still, I'm amazed how all the people who discussed it never thought that Kira wasn't fighting back since they would have never defeated Zaft's forces with just the Archangel and were just running away. At least that's what all the lines in that episode seemed to point out.
It was obvious he was more concerned about the Archangel then his fight (hence why he kept trying to disengage), thats part of the reason he lost

Kira distracted + unwilling to kill + Shinn exploiting these weaknesses = Kira's loss

Nothing dirty about it, its war, plan your moves with what you know, then win/whatever you are trying to accomplish

EDIT: not bashing you or anything offensive, if i came across as such then sorry
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Old 2013-02-07, 00:46   Link #5842
monster
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There's no going around the fact that Kira lost that battle while Shinn successfully utilized his mobile suit. But that's all it was.

I think the only problem with the Freedom vs Impulse fight is when people try to use it to make some kind of "x is more powerful than y" type of statement. Of course, that's just the usual reaction to these types of stories.
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Old 2013-02-07, 05:06   Link #5843
Znozzy
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Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
Lol Freedom vs Impulse, that debate is BS imo, Shinn and Impulse won, period, thats what happened, "what ifs" are invalid, Freedom was doomed the instant the producers designed SF

I love following those debates, its hilarious, and so ironically against everything Gundam tries to point out about conflict
Indeed, the plot demanded it, so the Freedom lost, Kira fucked up several times, he lost focus, didn't take Shinn seriously, Shinn and Laser barrel had him fully analyzed down to the bottom, he got his butt whooped and even admitted it himself that he lost due to his own mistakes.

Then again, one can argue that Kira is superior to Shinn in piloting (Which sort of gets thrown in your face when Kira grabs the Destiny's AS-sword during the Orb siege) lol

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
There's no going around the fact that Kira lost that battle while Shinn successfully utilized his mobile suit. But that's all it was.

I think the only problem with the Freedom vs Impulse fight is when people try to use it to make some kind of "x is more powerful than y" type of statement. Of course, that's just the usual reaction to these types of stories.
Indeed, The Freedom > Impulse, Shinn's piloting > Kira's piloting when it comes to that battle, Hell, the Impulse was pretty much the Anti-Kira mobile suit anyways. lol
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Old 2013-02-07, 05:51   Link #5844
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Simply put... Shinn won and Kira did not give his best effort. This can't be argued. It's the only tangible things we can take from the fight. There's the Ultimatum. There should be no argument/debate further from that...dea-ded.

That had to be his worst performance/effort since he first piloted the Strike.
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Old 2013-02-07, 06:46   Link #5845
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Simply put... Shinn won and Kira did not give his best effort.
One would say that someone would give their best effort when their friends' lives or an entire nation are in danger. But it's Kira, I guess. It doesn't really need to make sense. It doesn't matter when we say he held back to preserve his awesome skills, or he was drunk at the time, or he had his helmet on backwards, or he used his feet instead of his hands, or he likes seeing his friends in danger(or the simpler "he held back because he held back"). The fact is, he just held back, that's it.
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Old 2013-02-07, 15:17   Link #5846
KiraYamatoFan
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That was probably the episode on which I ranted the most about.

Not only, Kira's performance as a pilot was completely horrendous and BS story-wise, but also the lack of reaction from the Archangel was absolute hogwash too. If the point was about escaping to sea, hell they could have just used the rough terrain to cripple the entire ZAFT division in an area filled with all kinds of technically sophisticated boobytraps.

It's because of that particular episode (and the ones involving Orb's forces abroad) that I still keep wondering why Fukuda wasted Natarle's character when she would still be of some use on the AA crew, especially on finding a way to solve the mess very swiftly with the right tactics.
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Old 2013-02-07, 15:28   Link #5847
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
There's no going around the fact that Kira lost that battle while Shinn successfully utilized his mobile suit. But that's all it was.

I think the only problem with the Freedom vs Impulse fight is when people try to use it to make some kind of "x is more powerful than y" type of statement. Of course, that's just the usual reaction to these types of stories.
I also can't help but feel that the Impulse was specifically designed as a plan in case they ever had to fight the Freedom. Kira's specialty is disarming and the Impulse just happens to be able to switch parts quite freely (props to Shinn for the kamikaze with those broken parts though). Then suddenly right after the fight he is given the more powerful Destiny. Why not just give him the Destiny before and have a suit that was more on par or possibly better than the Freedom? Because Durandal knew the Impulse would be more likely to last longer against the Freedom leaving open more chances for Kira to make a mistake. While the Destiny would be useless if Kira manages to get his attacks in.
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Old 2013-02-07, 15:33   Link #5848
monster
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Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
If the point was about escaping to sea, hell they could have just used the rough terrain to cripple the entire ZAFT division in an area filled with all kinds of technically sophisticated boobytraps.
What booby-traps?
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Originally Posted by cyberdemon View Post
I also can't help but feel that the Impulse was specifically designed as a plan in case they ever had to fight the Freedom. Kira's specialty is disarming and the Impulse just happens to be able to switch parts quite freely (props to Shinn for the kamikaze with those broken parts though). Then suddenly right after the fight he is given the more powerful Destiny. Why not just give him the Destiny before and have a suit that was more on par with the Freedom? Because Durandal knew the Impulse would be more likely to last longer against the Freedom leaving open more chances for Kira to make a mistake. While the Destiny would be useless if Kira manages to get his attacks in.
I think Impulse is just an evolution of what ZAFT has seen with the Strike. Why stop at swapping packs when you can also swap other parts as well?
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Old 2013-02-07, 15:40   Link #5849
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
I think Impulse is just an evolution of what ZAFT has seen with the Strike. Why stop at swapping packs when you can also swap other parts as well?
Durandal has been a chess master all through the war until the end. Him and Rey groomed Shinn to become the one to fight Kira. It would honestly make a great deal of sense in this case if he built the impulse as a means to counter Kira if the assassination attempt failed (or it succeeded and Kira went on a rampage as a result). It gave a VERY specific advantage to Shinn in a fight against Kira that other mobile suits would've failed from not having. He put off giving Shinn the Destiny since Shinn would need that advantage more in a fight against Kira and the Freedom than just having raw power.
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Old 2013-02-07, 15:53   Link #5850
Gundamx
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Originally Posted by amaterasu4 View Post
Hey I actually defend Freedom vs Impulse. Still, I'm amazed how all the people who discussed it never thought that Kira wasn't fighting back since they would have never defeated Zaft's forces with just the Archangel and were just running away. At least that's what all the lines in that episode seemed to point out.
Actually they can defeat ZAFT force they just aren't sure yet that they want to enter war them since they are not sure who try to kill Lacus yet.
(That why they say in enemy to answer Athrun for why they didn't fight back.)

Edit: Don't forget that they have Kira who could easily farm grunts/battleships >>> he just need to stop running away/wasting time and just fight Shin > and ZAFT army will be destroyed the second Impulse is down.

(But then they will be officially at war with them and that why it's easier "for long run" to just run away for for now without attacking them.)
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Old 2013-02-07, 16:13   Link #5851
monster
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Originally Posted by cyberdemon View Post
Durandal has been a chess master all through the war until the end. Him and Rey groomed Shinn to become the one to fight Kira. It would honestly make a great deal of sense in this case if he built the impulse as a means to counter Kira if the assassination attempt failed (or it succeeded and Kira went on a rampage as a result). It gave a VERY specific advantage to Shinn in a fight against Kira that other mobile suits would've failed from not having. He put off giving Shinn the Destiny since Shinn would need that advantage more in a fight against Kira and the Freedom than just having raw power.
I don't think Durandal even expected to have Freedom interfering that far ahead. The Impulse must've been designed for some time before Destiny.
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Old 2013-02-07, 16:32   Link #5852
Rising Dragon
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If Durandal had a backup plan to kill Lacus if she refused to cooperate with his plan AND have a body double to take her place, then yes, he most certainly expected to have Freedom interfering that far ahead. Especially when you consider the fact that he tried to have Kira killed ahead of time by using Canard Pars against him.

He had everything planned out from the start.
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Old 2013-02-07, 16:38   Link #5853
amaterasu4
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
I don't think Durandal even expected to have Freedom interfering that far ahead. The Impulse must've been designed for some time before Destiny.
Well, at least in Delta Astray we learn that he is responsible for sending Canard on his journey to kill Kira. And Canard's story happens in late SEED. Also, in one of the new scenes from Special Edition Durandal predicts Kira's involvement in the war and already plans to use Shinn to kill him. I don't know if Impulse was made for this but Destiny Astray, set before Destiny's start, shows its first presentation and how it was made so that the Minerva could easily assist the pilot in combat.
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Old 2013-02-07, 16:44   Link #5854
Haak
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
No, his reason was based on the fact that an NJC would allow the use of nuclear weapons, which is true whether or not the war is still going on.
But most particularly because it's bad when there is a war going on...

In any case, the fact that nuclear weapons are usable now puts a very large hole into Kira's reasons for keeping it s secret.

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It's not my logic, it's the EA's.
No it's your logic. There 's nothing to suggest EA considered the invasion of Orb worth it. Your suggested reasons were just fanwanking and not even good fanwanking.

And even if it is their logic, it still doesn't make any sense for the reasons I've already stated (e.g. Their only possible pro out of it was completely counter-productive). Thus, I call BS on it.

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Oh, so you're telling Orb to threaten to destroy itself every time someone threatens an invasion? Knowing the EA, they would just go ahead with the invasion just to spite Orb.
No, I've made this point quite clear already: EA have bigger fish to fry. They can't just throw mobile suits whenever and wherever they feel like it. Destiny shows they have to pick their conflicts and territorial areas carefully and wasting any effort on a neutral nation just to spite them is simply illogical and not something they would do nor is it something Orb would think they would do. The last time, EA only attacked Orb because it badly needed a Mass Driver. This does not prove to Orb that the EA attacks anything that moves.

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No, it's to illustrate to YOU, what kind of people command the EA.

Orb already knows about the EA from SEED.
So it's completely irrelevant to the point then? Good.
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Old 2013-02-07, 19:00   Link #5855
KiraYamatoFan
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What booby-traps?
I dunno. Mines, missile pods activated to trigger upon enemies approaching with heat signatures not matching friendly signatures, etc. The Archangel was moving through a canyon and it was quite a perfect place to set up an ambush while escaping after all.

That's part of why I was furious Natarle being killed considering Fukuda already knew about making a sequel. In that European adventure, the Archangel went in there with zero tactical sense on how to deal with those various situations. Even if it's not about killing the most enemies possible, at least crippling enough of them to force the enemy to abandon pursuit would have been nice.
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Old 2013-02-08, 01:38   Link #5856
monster
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If Durandal had a backup plan to kill Lacus if she refused to cooperate with his plan AND have a body double to take her place, then yes, he most certainly expected to have Freedom interfering that far ahead.
The fake Lacus would suggest that Durandal was certain the real Lacus wouldn't be a problem.
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Especially when you consider the fact that he tried to have Kira killed ahead of time by using Canard Pars against him.
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Well, at least in Delta Astray we learn that he is responsible for sending Canard on his journey to kill Kira.
That would suggest, if anything, that Durandal wanted Kira to be taken out before he becomes a problem. So again, there's no reason to believe that Durandal expected to have Kira piloting a mobile suit again that he would design a mobile suit specifically to counter Kira.
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He had everything planned out from the start.
Apparently not, since Durandal didn't plan to have Freedom being at the place where Lacus was staying.
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
But most particularly because it's bad when there is a war going on...
Either way, there's no indication that Kira/Lacus would share the technology.
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In any case, the fact that nuclear weapons are usable now puts a very large hole into Kira's reasons for keeping it s secret.
Not at all, you don't put out fires by sharing the technology to make more fires.
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No it's your logic. There 's nothing to suggest EA considered the invasion of Orb worth it.
Nothing? How about the fact that they did invade Orb? That's not nothing.
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And even if it is their logic, it still doesn't make any sense for the reasons I've already stated (e.g. Their only possible pro out of it was completely counter-productive). Thus, I call BS on it.
Well, just look at Berlin. What could the EA gain by attacking it when they're in a war with ZAFT?
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No, I've made this point quite clear already: EA have bigger fish to fry. They can't just throw mobile suits whenever and wherever they feel like it. Destiny shows they have to pick their conflicts and territorial areas carefully and wasting any effort on a neutral nation just to spite them is simply illogical and not something they would do nor is it something Orb would think they would do. The last time, EA only attacked Orb because it badly needed a Mass Driver. This does not prove to Orb that the EA attacks anything that moves.
Again, the Berlin example.
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So it's completely irrelevant to the point then?
It's completely relevant.

Because you're ignoring the EA's character every time you say that they won't bother with Orb even if Orb refused to join them.
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Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
I dunno. Mines, missile pods activated to trigger upon enemies approaching with heat signatures not matching friendly signatures, etc. The Archangel was moving through a canyon and it was quite a perfect place to set up an ambush while escaping after all.
I think the Archangel wasn't expecting a pursuit. The EA and ZAFT are still at war and the Archangel was going back to Orb.
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Old 2013-02-08, 01:58   Link #5857
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
The fake Lacus would suggest that Durandal was certain the real Lacus wouldn't be a problem.
If he was absolutely certain that his fake Lacus would mean the real Lacus wouldn't become a problem, then he wouldn't have thrown assassins at her. So no, he definitely knew she would become a problem at some point and wanted her removed from the equation.

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That would suggest, if anything, that Durandal wanted Kira to be taken out before he becomes a problem. So again, there's no reason to believe that Durandal expected to have Kira piloting a mobile suit again that he would design a mobile suit specifically to counter Kira.
... are you even reading what you're posting? "Because he'll be a problem, he wouldn't make a mobile suit to counter him"? Seriously?

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Apparently not, since Durandal didn't plan to have Freedom being at the place where Lacus was staying.
Look, I get you feel this compulsion to defend even the worst parts of the SEED franchise, but this is getting ridiculous. He was expecting the Freedom or another mobile suit to be there. That's why he sent a bunch of bloody ASH mobile suits to make sure they complete their mission.
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Old 2013-02-08, 02:13   Link #5858
monster
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If he was absolutely certain that his fake Lacus would mean the real Lacus wouldn't become a problem, then he wouldn't have thrown assassins at her. So no, he definitely knew she would become a problem at some point and wanted her removed from the equation.

... are you even reading what you're posting? "Because he'll be a problem, he wouldn't make a mobile suit to counter him"? Seriously?
I meant that he would take care of both Lacus and Kira before Kira gets back into the Freedom.
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Look, I get you feel this compulsion to defend even the worst parts of the SEED franchise, but this is getting ridiculous. He was expecting the Freedom or another mobile suit to be there. That's why he sent a bunch of bloody ASH mobile suits to make sure they complete their mission.
The ASH is definitely not something you want to send if you're expecting to fight the Freedom.
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Old 2013-02-08, 02:23   Link #5859
Rising Dragon
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If you're going to split hairs, you wouldn't want to send anything other than the Providence after the Freedom, but that's the fault of the Fukuda and Morosawa making Kira invincible. Nevertheless, my point still stands: Durandal planned ahead to deal with both Kira and Lacus and it's certainly plausible that he designed the Impulse to destroy the Freedom if it had to become a public matter.
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Old 2013-02-08, 02:50   Link #5860
monster
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If you're going to split hairs, you wouldn't want to send anything other than the Providence after the Freedom, but that's the fault of the Fukuda and Morosawa making Kira invincible.
Uh, no, you just have to send something that can at least fly. The ASH is just not a good match for Freedom regardless of whether Kira is invincible.
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Nevertheless, my point still stands: Durandal planned ahead to deal with both Kira and Lacus and it's certainly plausible that he designed the Impulse to destroy the Freedom if it had to become a public matter.
Is it plausible for Durandal to factor in all of things that would have to happen for the Impulse and Freedom to have the confrontation they did?

I mean, what if they meet in a battle where Freedom was not trying to retreat? Or what if they meet after Lacus was killed, where it's conceivable that Kira would be less likely to not kill? Is Durandal going to design a mobile suit just to counter one possible Kira?

Besides, it's not like the Impulse's design is the only way to defeat the Freedom.

So even if it's plausible, it's still more likely that the Impulse's design is exactly what Durandal said it was: inspired from the Strike (but taken to the next level, of course).
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