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Old 2013-01-03, 06:55   Link #41
Triple_R
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It's interesting that Kirito and Haru are wrote by the same man. But yeah, they are very different from one another.

I think that SAO's writer realized he kind of overdid it with Kirito, and Haru was the result of him attempting to add greater balance and more flaws/weaknesses to his next male lead. And I think he largely succeeded with Haru... although he might have went a touch too far.

On the whole, I will say I enjoyed Accel World more than I did SAO, though I suspect that's a pretty rare and controversial opinion.
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Old 2013-01-03, 07:13   Link #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
So only thin people can become main characters and fat people are not allowed to become main characters?
I just couldn't take Haru seriously because his chara design wasn't just fat,it was like a caricature of fat people and I just can't take caricatures seriously.

And I say this as someone who likes Shinji and dropped SAO
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Old 2013-01-03, 07:19   Link #43
hyl
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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
I'm not really referring to any main. The list is what I thought people think is the ideal protagonist. Obviously, I was wrong.

Okay, I'll dissect the list for you guys.

1. Have a ridiculously sob backstory.
Somebody told me that conflict is necessary to make a good story. But what kind of conflict? One that starts off deep? Can't we have a well-received story where the real conflict starts right just after it has began, like that of Jonathan Joestar; instead of a story which WILL turn out sour like that of Kiritsugu Emiya or Light Yagami?
You are probably mistaken something. While conflict is essential for a story, it does not have to be in a grand scale or overly dramatic like what you are thinking. Even something smalls can cause the main character doing something that moves the plot and it is still called a conflict.


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Don't get me wrong, I like Kiritsugu, even if he has the probably most sob-worthy backstory ever. I just find it unnerving to see that people seem to like tragic characters and make them up as badasses by saying that Shinji Ikari or Haruyuki Arita has no right to whine about anything when they don't even freaking understand the psychology behind them. They want wimpy MCs to develop a backbone within a span of half a episode, even if they were already suffering for like 10 years due to things beyond their control.

I mean, can't I like both wimps and badasses at the same time? People actually berate me for liking wimpy MCs.
Badasses and wimps are opposites, so how the heck can you have and even want a character with both traits at the same time?

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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
2. Ditch your moral values and become like the honey badger who doesn't give a crap.

I blame it to the manipulative villain who gets praised more for just being good at plans while berating the hero for falling for the guy's trap and succumbing to his values when it clearly can't help him against the villain. They treat morality like it's some sort of Idiot Ball. I hate that. They don't call it "evil", they call it "smart". But to me, "evil" is still "evil", no matter how "smart" it is.

Again, don't get me wrong. I like cunning characters (like Shu from Suikoden 2, who reminds me of Aizen), but I really hate it when they equate goodness with dumbness and demand that mains have to be a step ahead of the villain all the freaking time.
What are you even blabbering about here?
Ditching morality is something for villains, anti-heroes or people who fall under the chaotic neutral alligment.
I have no idea how that is related to "good is dumb".

Your view (like your previous posts) is extremely narrow.

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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
3. Ditch your friends, because they can't help you, and could even be an obstacle to you.

I blame this to the hero party who are usually portrayed to be utterly useless against the enemies so our hero has no choice but to win it by himself. I really can't blame people for asking for shows where the hero party actually does something better than just being hero bait.

Being the party healer is also quite a problem, because they can't fight. [sarcasm]Combat skills are required for all members of the hero party.[/sarcasm] So make him/her a Combat Medic. Problem is, CM's get Worf'd most of the time. I'm glad the medic-nin from Naruto are not such cases.

Barring Priestess Yufa from Ragnarok the Animation, I have never seen White Mages win a single fight. I would like to see a WM win a fight by using the Holy Hand Grenade once in a while.
Another extremely narrow view of things. In some stories it's more about the main heroine who ends up being some kind of choosen one/hero. In those stories it's about them beating the villain often times single handedly. Like lot's of action movies, shounen mangas and the more action orientated single player video games

While there are other stories that are more about camaraderie and teamwork.
The final battles in movies like lord of the rings and almost every story in rpg's are not won by just a single person.

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4. Go on a quest for UNLIMITED POWER!

Duh, that's the point of fighters, right? But please don't treat it like it's the ultimate goal. The ultimate goal should be to use it for the sake of good.
It's pretty much a goal in real life for some people as well. Acquiring wealth, fame and status are pretty much the same in that regard.

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5. Become so overpowered that not even the final villain can TOUCH YOU.

Now that I think of it, I couldn't really think of an MC who can one-shot the final villain. I think I was just exaggerating things. Finishing them with over-the-top moves (for the sake of climax IKR) doesn't really help matters.

I would just say that the harder the MC struggles against the final villain, the better. This is the reason why I liked Kosuke Ueki better than Kirito.
So tell me, how many stories do use this if you are so mad about it? It seems that you are completely overreacting to what you have seen in Sword art online and now you are thinking that every story has this problem.

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6. If the final villain somehow overpowers you, know that the Deus Ex Machina is still out there to save you, if you're lucky.

I think the Deus Ex Machina ruined most chances for me to ever appreciate Kirito. So in the end, he really didn't win his fights all by himself, he had help from the system.

People usually don't complain about too little help from the Deus Ex Machina and yet complain about too much help from the Deus Ex Machina. But SAO fans don't care about how often the Deus Ex Machina helped Kirito because it makes sense in-story.

So I guess Deus Ex Machina is okay as long as it's explained in the plot, but to me it diminishes the value of the hero's victory, depending on its use.
Dues ex Machina's are often seen as a form of lazy writing and fortunately it's not used that often to conclude good stories.
Also like my previous paragraph, it seems that you are also overreacting on this based on your frustration of SAO.


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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
I'll tell you this: I spent the entire two weeks sour-graping on Kirito because of all the hate towards Haru of Accel World. People keep saying Kirito is better because he's thin and Haru is fat, because Kirito is badass right off the bat and Haru has no right to whine because everything is now going his way, because Kirito deserves his girls and Haru doesn't

I really don't like it when people set double standards on others, anime characters or otherwise. So it's okay to be Shinji Ikari but not Haruyuki Arita? So only thin people can become main characters and fat people are not allowed to become main characters?

I mean, right?
So where did you read that?
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Old 2013-01-03, 07:35   Link #44
judasmartel
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Badasses and wimps are opposites, so how the heck can you have and even want a character with both traits at the same time?
Why not? I'm that crazy.

I prefer late-bloomers better than MCs who start strong, but I also like the latter.

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So where did you read that?
About 70% of posts in MAL's Accel World forums are Haru hate. And since SAO is more popular, I assumed Haru haters dropped AW for SAO just because they can't take Haru's design seriously.
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Old 2013-01-03, 16:35   Link #45
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The fat character from Highschool of the Dead is considered badass by plenty of member of animesuki. Any thought on that?
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Old 2013-01-03, 16:49   Link #46
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The fat character from Highschool of the Dead is considered badass by plenty of member of animesuki. Any thought on that?
Hirano Kohta IS a badass. Revolution!!
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Old 2013-01-03, 20:22   Link #47
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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
You should know by now that the term Mary Sue/Gary Stu does not apply to original characters, only to self-inserted characters in fan fiction.


It's an actual trope nowadays that's being found in a helluva lot of manga/anime.

But...that's another thread.
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Old 2013-01-04, 01:12   Link #48
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I have no problem with awesome nor exceptionally badass MCs, but when other people create unnecessary rant about why they don't like these kinds of MCs. The problem isn't because people don't like them. It's because, in trying to justify why they don't like it, some people choose to make rash unsubstantiated claims about the supposed "objective faults" of them. In the end it almost always really comes back to "well, I didn't like it (and I think I have good reasons)". But not liking them is a preference and not a fact; it's the unique combination of the viewer and the object being viewed
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Old 2013-01-05, 02:13   Link #49
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Hirano Kohta IS a badass. Revolution!!
Thirds this. Kouta is definitely the best male in the series, if not the best character period. Saeko is the only one who can compete with him in terms of sheer awesomeness IMO.


Also, as per the discussion on Accel World, for me, the reason I preferred Sword Art Online had nothing to do with the main characters, but rather because there was more at stake, dying in game=dying in real life.
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Old 2013-02-06, 23:37   Link #50
judasmartel
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Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
The fat character from Highschool of the Dead is considered badass by plenty of member of animesuki. Any thought on that?
He's not the main character, but we need more badass MC's like him. 99% of anime is all about thin and lanky guys.
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Old 2013-02-07, 00:59   Link #51
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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
If you can't follow all of these (I mean ALL OF THESE), people will call you a wimp and never consider you as a badass.
I have not seen anyone call Goku (ya know, one of the most popular and famous protagonist ever) a "wimp" and not a badass, despite him raising a family, befriending countless warriors across the universe, and overall cheery and fun bro.

Another popular "badass" Guts lost all of his friends in a bloody betrayal, and did go through the "I don't need anyone but myself" phase, but have matured to lead a band of followers in friendship. No one would dare call Guts anything but a "badass" unless they are insane.


Like someone else mentioned, your stereotype fits the bill of a western video game character more closely than anime or manga.
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Old 2013-02-07, 01:27   Link #52
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^ More or less.

In the end, I actually find it pretty disturbing that some viewers, particularly the Western ones (though not all of them), actually want their anime MC's to be like their more "badass" Western counterparts. Despite, you know, anime being catered to the Japanese audience.
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Old 2013-02-07, 06:44   Link #53
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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
If you can't follow all of these (I mean ALL OF THESE), people will call you a wimp and never consider you as a badass.

If somebody can prove me wrong by giving me a RECENTLY POPULAR badass MC who is still a paragon of justice and a solid believer in the Power of Friendship, be my guest.
1) Okabe Rintaro from Steins;Gate - does not have an (overly) sob backstory, cares deeply about his friends, not really powerful (just determined) and his "quest" for unlimited power is just an act for hilarious results.

2) Oreki Houtaro from Hyoka - Again, does not have a particularly sad past, cares about his friends and is extremely lazy to do anything let alone try to "conquer the world".

3) JoJo - people have already brought up why

4) Gon from HxH - people have already brought up why

There are many others that I do not care to list.

It's actually pretty hard for me to find someone who fits this list to a T. It's pretty much impossible, since everyone subverts it in one way or the other. I think you are just generalizing based on bad experience with one character or another (e.g. Kirito).

Also, I do not find characters like Kirito particularly attractive. He is extremely bland and one-dimensional and his baddass-ery does not really impress me in a way that other characters do (e.g. Guts or Zoro).
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Old 2013-02-07, 08:49   Link #54
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I'm still totally clueless about what the OP is complaining about, but why are there no female characters in this discussion? Balsa from Moribito is one of the most impressive characters in anime, but she is not overpowered, just someone who trained hard from childhood. Her abilities are portrayed in the very first episode. Nakajima Youko from Twelve Kingdoms starts off as a wimp, but she doesn't have a "sob" story background. Her parents seem well-to-do, and she is an iincho. She still undergoes the most profound character development I've seen in an anime.
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Old 2013-02-07, 09:25   Link #55
judasmartel
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I assume it's also applicable to female characters, not just the male ones?

Well, I do find female MC's in general interesting, because 80% of the time the MC is always male. For example, Medaka. I haven't watched the anime yet, but I think I would like her because despite being overpowered, she's just as girly as any other anime female. Unlike some I heard of who don't feel or look like a woman at all.

So basically, what I really hate about overpowered characters is:

1. I don't find any explanation as to how did they get that strong to be sufficient to suspend disbelief. If it's received through training, they don't have to show the entire training process, just a good portion of it would be enough. If it's a power given to them, they could show their struggles to master their powers.

2. The intelligent ones (like Lelouch and Light) tend to flunk in the socials and morality departments. But it's just me thinking that media seems to portray intelligence as something evil and that morally upright characters are not capable of executing complex schemes.

Last edited by judasmartel; 2013-02-08 at 04:54.
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Old 2013-02-07, 15:40   Link #56
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Simon from Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.

He won any fight he fought. He only lost the ones where he was not really willing to fight.

He has character development.

(To put it in a way to avoid spoilers) :
He gets compared to a certain "classical" badass character and even gets his own nickname in the fandom derived from said character.

The only reason he is not widely considered "badass" is because of Kamina overshadowing him, but that was even used as a plot point in the anime.

now to "attack" your list:

Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
1. Have a ridiculously sob backstory.
Well this is true, however this aspect is COMPLETLY COVERED BY THE 1st EPISODE. I can just ignore dramatic events from the main story here as that does not count to "backstory".

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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
2. Ditch your moral values and become like the honey badger who doesn't give a crap.
Well: "WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM?" TTGL only focused slightly on "morals". It didn't "downplay" morals, it just... let's say "avoided" this issue.

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3. Ditch your friends, because they can't help you, and could even be an obstacle to you.
No. Quite the opposite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
4. Go on a quest for UNLIMITED POWER!
nope, FIGHT THE POWER!

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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
5. Become so overpowered that not even the final villain can TOUCH YOU.
The 1st "final villain" was a hard fight. The 2nd one's was not shown in the original series, but in the movie version there was a fight shown for this "end boss" and the reason for the end result can be easily deduced with a bit of thinking.

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6. If the final villain somehow overpowers you, know that the Deus Ex Machina is still out there to save you, if you're lucky.
If I remember correctly there were 3 Deus Ex Machinas in TTGL:
1. At the beginning (which was however explained only later on in full detail).
2. Somewhere in the middle which was not related to a fight but only for plot progression instead.
3. Thrown in just after there was a Diabolous Ex Machina. But even though it did come quite out of nowhere, it was an inspiring moment.

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7. ???
"???"!!!

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8. PROFIT!
Maybe. (for further details see response to list part number 7)


repeat for infinite ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER!
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Old 2013-02-07, 17:27   Link #57
GDiddy
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The fat character from Highschool of the Dead is considered badass by plenty of member of animesuki. Any thought on that?
As a female fan, I loved Kohta more than the lead MC.

He and Saeko were AWESOME.
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Old 2013-02-08, 04:14   Link #58
larethian
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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
I assume it's also applicable to female characters, not just the male ones?

Well, I do find female MC's in general interesting, because 80% of the time the MC is always male. For example, Medaka. I haven't watched the anime yet, but I think I would like her because despite being overpowered, she's just as girly as any other anime female. Unlike some I heard of who don't feel or look like a woman at all.

So basically, what I really hate about overpowered characters is:

1. I don't find any explanation as to how did they get that strong to be insufficient to suspend disbelief. If it's received through training, they don't have to show the entire training process, just a good portion of it would be enough. If it's a power given to them, they could show their struggles to master their powers.

2. The intelligent ones (like Lelouch and Light) tend to flunk in the socials and morality departments. But it's just me thinking that media seems to portray intelligence as something evil and that morally upright characters are not capable of executing complex schemes.
Actually quite a bunch of stories with badass MCs I read have this, just that it might not be depicted properly in anime, or they might come much later in the story.

I originally believed that total badasses who own everything effortlessly ruins the story and makes it boring, until I came across a particular novel, which exceeds the definition of badass MCs by all standards (even when we compare to all the badass MCs animated till now, I believe). Surprisingly, due to the execution and setting and worldview and characters, I find it extremely intriguing and entertaining. Though without a doubt, it has garnered some hate, but IMHO, I believed that it's because the haters are blinded by their own belief (which I also previously had) that total badass MCs are bad, and not reading the story properly (and putting all the aspects together to form a more holistic opinion) or not reading far enough to understand the story to make the proper assessments.

Oh yeah, just for the record, I thought SAO was pretty good, but not great and way overrated IMO LOL. /runs and hides in the bushes

By the way, I hope you never took the posts from MAL and ANN seriously, because I never did. I personally find many of posters are either immature or shallow watchers of anime.
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Old 2013-02-08, 04:58   Link #59
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Quote:
1. I don't find any explanation as to how did they get that strong to be sufficient to suspend disbelief. If it's received through training, they don't have to show the entire training process, just a good portion of it would be enough. If it's a power given to them, they could show their struggles to master their powers.
Fixed.

Well, I did took comments about Accel World at MAL pretty seriously. These really blasted the crap of out me that I can't help but face palm every single time.

It eventually occurred to me that, yeah, shallow anime viewers are shallow. They only watch thin and lanky MCs that fit the Western badass archetype well.

But thing is, 99% of action anime is all about thin and lanky guys. When I watched Accel World, I felt it was nice to have a fat MC for a change. Then things went out of control when I automatically assumed that Haru haters were Kirito fans. Fortunately, I was able to find haters of BOTH characters ("Haru was too wimpy (okay, Judas here knows that), Kirito was so generic") so my head cooled off a great deal after that.
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Old 2013-02-08, 05:35   Link #60
hyl
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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
They only watch thin and lanky MCs that fit the Western badass archetype well.
>_>
So give me some examples then of western badass characters who are similar to the ones you see in animes?
The usual Western stereotype of badass characters are usually the ruff and sometimes overly muscular characters with a dark personality, not the "thin and lanky" types

The problem that i have with your thread is that your overgeneralization of anime main character in itself is shallow. Because most of this comes from your dislike of SAO and Accel World protagonists
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