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Old 2013-02-08, 03:02   Link #5861
Rising Dragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Uh, no, you just have to send something that can at least fly. The ASH is just not a good match for Freedom regardless of whether Kira is invincible.
There are other considerations in play that you're ignoring/forgetting. Figure them out if you want to continue this line of discussion; otherwise I've already made my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Is it plausible for Durandal to factor in all of things that would have to happen for the Impulse and Freedom to have the confrontation they did?

I mean, what if they meet in a battle where Freedom was not trying to retreat? Or what if they meet after Lacus was killed, where it's conceivable that Kira would be less likely to not kill? Is Durandal going to design a mobile suit just to counter one possible Kira?
Considering how much bloody planning he put into every other detail in Destiny? Yeah. That said the "factors" you're talking about are remarkably open for their fulfillment, and let's not forget that if push came to shove he'd just set up the factors himself.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Besides, it's not like the Impulse's design is the only way to defeat the Freedom.
No, it's not the only way to defeat the Freedom, but it is the best way to destroy the Freedom, seeing how it fucking worked.



Someone let me know when everyone isn't trying to defend the parts of SEED that don't deserve defending. This is getting tiresome already.
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Old 2013-02-08, 03:20   Link #5862
monster
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
There are other considerations in play that you're ignoring/forgetting. Figure them out if you want to continue this line of discussion; otherwise I've already made my point.
If you're thinking about secrecy, there's no secrecy about a bunch of destroyed ASH on an Orb island. But with a flight-capable mobile suit, you could attack suddenly and be gone before everyone knows about it.
Quote:
Considering how much bloody planning he put into every other detail in Destiny? Yeah. That said the "factors" you're talking about are remarkably open for their fulfillment, and let's not forget that if push came to shove he'd just set up the factors himself.
Well, if Durandal had planned everything in detail such that he even expected to be fighting Freedom, then he wouldn't be sending the ASH unit.
Quote:
No, it's not the only way to defeat the Freedom, but it is the best way to destroy the Freedom, seeing how it fucking worked.
The fact that it worked doesn't mean it's the best way.

But even if that's how it works, it only further shows that sending the ASH wasn't the best way since it didn't work, which calls into question what kind of planning was put into this attack or even if Durandal even expected to fight the Freedom.
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Someone let me know when everyone isn't trying to defend the parts of SEED that don't deserve defending. This is getting tiresome already.
To what are you referring?
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Old 2013-02-08, 04:15   Link #5863
Skye629
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Im not gonna quote as that would take up too much space, I'm just gonna post

1. Impulse: I doubt it was designed specifically for the Freedom, if you wanted to go that far you would send in an equal or better unit with a nuclear reactor. Impulse's design just happened to be quite convenient vs Kira's battle style

2. Destiny: Probably still in development/being built/up in the PLANT's

3. I highly doubted Durandal knew the Freedom was present at a child care home where Lacus and Co. were. The assassins reaction to it appearing highly suggested they had no intel whatsoever on that point, and if they did have that intel, they would have NEVER sent those amphibious suits to do the job and would have planned accordingly

4. Couldnt really care for Durandal's planning/knowing everything, in comparison to Aeolia Schenberg, his planning and everything looked like childs play lol
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Old 2013-02-08, 04:57   Link #5864
Znozzy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
No, it's not the only way to defeat the Freedom, but it is the best way to destroy the Freedom, seeing how it fucking worked.
Wrong. The Impulse isnt the best way to defeat the Freedom but the best way to defend against Kira's way of fighting It being the Freedom or not is irrelevant, since the Freedom didn't malfunction in any way, Kira lost to himself because he didnt shoot impulse in the cockpit area

Also, is it time for this years first Kira Vs Shinn/Impulse Vs Freedom arguments? because we've already had them several times.
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Old 2013-02-08, 05:28   Link #5865
Kirayuki
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Also, is it time for this years first Kira Vs Shinn/Impulse Vs Freedom arguments? because we've already had them several times.
I beg to differ though, several times is a bit of understatement
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Old 2013-02-08, 05:34   Link #5866
sky black swordman
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Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
Im not gonna quote as that would take up too much space, I'm just gonna post

1. Impulse: I doubt it was designed specifically for the Freedom, if you wanted to go that far you would send in an equal or better unit with a nuclear reactor. Impulse's design just happened to be quite convenient vs Kira's battle style

3. I highly doubted Durandal knew the Freedom was present at a child care home where Lacus and Co. were. The assassins reaction to it appearing highly suggested they had no intel whatsoever on that point, and if they did have that intel, they would have NEVER sent those amphibious suits to do the job and would have planned accordingly
Whether or not the Impulse was designed specifically for the Freedom, it's too much of a coincidence that it was designed the way it was and was given to Shinn Asuka, someone who Chairman Durandal knew possessed the SEED factor. Talia Gladys once said she wondered why Shinn was given the Impluse instead of Ray. Durandal planning on using Shinn and the Impluse to defeat Kira and the Freedom.

IIRC, wasn't the child care home destroyed during the Junius Seven incident, and so Kira, Lacus and Co. were staying with Andrew Waltfeld and Murrue Ramius at their home. I have to agree on point 3. Also their mission was to kill Lacus through use of firearms. The use of the ASH mobile suits were only to be used as a last resort in order to complete their mission and kill her.
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Old 2013-02-08, 05:36   Link #5867
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Also, is it time for this years first Kira Vs Shinn/Impulse Vs Freedom arguments? because we've already had them several times.
I wonder who started this particular topic:
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Hence the endless Athrun vs Kira vs Shinn debate that usually happens 6 times a year, not to mention the massive plot-fest that is the Freedom vs Impulse that usually follows.
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Old 2013-02-08, 05:48   Link #5868
Znozzy
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
I wonder who started this particular topic:
Hey now, i simply stated it would/could happen, and it surely did, it's like a open wound

i mean, shit, it's like the fanboys can't let it slip as soon as they get the chance to bring it up again!

*cough*

Spoiler:
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Old 2013-02-08, 08:11   Link #5869
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What would happened if they send out the Murasame?
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Old 2013-02-08, 16:30   Link #5870
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Either way, there's no indication that Kira/Lacus would share the technology.
During a war? No.

Quote:
Not at all, you don't put out fires by sharing the technology to make more fires.
Fires =/= Nuclear technology.

Again, the point of nuclear weapons is so that they're not used at all.

Quote:
Nothing? How about the fact that they did invade Orb? That's not nothing.
Like I already said. They had to go on to invade Orb after the Mass driver had been demolished because they might as well have since it would've been unwise for them to just leave and let the Orb soldiers come back or let it become a haven for resistance. That doesn't mean it was worth it in the end for them.

Quote:
Well, just look at Berlin. What could the EA gain by attacking it when they're in a war with ZAFT?
Berlin wasn't neutral: They were fighting ZAFT forces, wiped the floor with them and decided to show a strength of force.

Quote:
Again, the Berlin example.
Happened after the treaty. What did i just say?: "This does not prove to Orb that the EA attacks anything that moves."

Quote:
It's completely relevant.

Because you're ignoring the EA's character every time you say that they won't bother with Orb even if Orb refused to join them.
The topic is whether Orb believed they could deter EA, before the treaty. If at any point I'm talking about EA's character then it is under the context of what Orb believes about EA's character before the treaty. I'm going to say it once again, and hopefully it'll get through to you: Using an example of something that happened way after the treaty is not a credible example of what Orb believes about EA's character before the treaty.
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Old 2013-02-08, 16:47   Link #5871
Znozzy
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
The topic is whether Orb believed they could deter EA, before the treaty. If at any point I'm talking about EA's character then it is under the context of what Orb believes about EA's character before the treaty. I'm going to say it once again, and hopefully it'll get through to you: Using an example of something that happened way after the treaty is not a credible example of what Orb believes about EA's character before the treaty.
Honestly, Orb didnt think they could deter EA back in Seed, they kept sending requests for peace talks, Orb isnt a powerful nation, it does have a small army but thats about it, hell, after the second? day of fighting in Orb, their parliament? blew up their massdriver and anything of interest to the EA so they would leave them alone.

Orb cant outlast the EA in any possible scenario. And they got a nice taste of how the EA acts in Seed. Them signing the treaty in Destiny is plot-fuckery and Plot-Seirans, nothing else. Arguing over who is right and not is pretty irrelevant seeing how even trying to make a tad bit of sense out of anything major in destiny is a waste of effort due to the actal writing in the show.
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Old 2013-02-08, 20:35   Link #5872
Skye629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Wrong. The Impulse isnt the best way to defeat the Freedom but the best way to defend against Kira's way of fighting It being the Freedom or not is irrelevant, since the Freedom didn't malfunction in any way, Kira lost to himself because he didnt shoot impulse in the cockpit area

Also, is it time for this years first Kira Vs Shinn/Impulse Vs Freedom arguments? because we've already had them several times.
Sorry I sorta started it lol, It sorta came up in one of my comments then the community did the rest of the work rofl, somewhat predictable actually

Wait until it blows up again with the SD remaster XD, I for one will have the popcorn ready
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Old 2013-02-08, 22:23   Link #5873
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
During a war? No.
And they won't during peacetime as well.
Quote:
Again, the point of nuclear weapons is so that they're not used at all.
We've gone beyond that in SEED.
Quote:
Like I already said. They had to go on to invade Orb after the Mass driver had been demolished because they might as well have since it would've been unwise for them to just leave and let the Orb soldiers come back or let it become a haven for resistance. That doesn't mean it was worth it in the end for them.
Then they should've left after their main goal was thwarted. Instead, they went on and occupied Orb anyway.
Quote:
Berlin wasn't neutral: They were fighting ZAFT forces, wiped the floor with them and decided to show a strength of force.
Uh, what? Berlin is part of EA.
Quote:
Happened after the treaty. What did i just say?: "This does not prove to Orb that the EA attacks anything that moves."
And like I said, Orb already knows about the EA from SEED.

You're the one who seems to be ignoring the EA's character, that's why I'm using this example for you.
Quote:
The topic is whether Orb believed they could deter EA, before the treaty. If at any point I'm talking about EA's character then it is under the context of what Orb believes about EA's character before the treaty. I'm going to say it once again, and hopefully it'll get through to you: Using an example of something that happened way after the treaty is not a credible example of what Orb believes about EA's character before the treaty.
What Orb believes is from what happened in SEED. And that's enough for them to consider not refusing the EA's offer in Destiny.
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Old 2013-02-09, 09:45   Link #5874
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
And they won't during peacetime as well.
More fanwanking.

Quote:
We've gone beyond that in SEED.
We haven't really. There is nothing to suggest EA is willing to fire nuclear weapons at someone who can fire them back.

In fact they specifically made a point to show that the conflict between EA and ZAFT was brought to a complete stand still after ZAFT used GENESIS.

Quote:
Then they should've left after their main goal was thwarted. Instead, they went on and occupied Orb anyway.
You're blatantly just not listening to me at all any more...

What did I just say? They had to go on and take control to prevent Kusanagi returning and/or prevent a resistance from forming.

Going on to invade Orb does not mean they think it was worth it in the end. All it means is that now that the damage is done, you simply take any consolation prize you can get.

Quote:
Uh, what? Berlin is part of EA.
No. They were former Eurasian Federation territories that had sided with ZAFT.

Quote:
And like I said, Orb already knows about the EA from SEED.

You're the one who seems to be ignoring the EA's character, that's why I'm using this example for you. What Orb believes is from what happened in SEED.

And that's enough for them to consider not refusing the EA's offer in Destiny.
And like I said, EA attacked Orb in SEED does not prove that EA attacks anything everywhere for reasons I have already stated.

Nor does it prove that Orb can't deter EA after that.

But I'm glad you've finally decided to drop the useless Destroy argument...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Honestly, Orb didnt think they could deter EA back in Seed, they kept sending requests for peace talks, Orb isnt a powerful nation, it does have a small army but thats about it, hell, after the second? day of fighting in Orb, their parliament? blew up their massdriver and anything of interest to the EA so they would leave them alone.
Back in SEED it probably didn't (though I'd like to point out that it successfully deterred ZAFT in SEED and later thought it could deter ZAFT again in SEED Destiny).

But I'm not talking about that instance.
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Old 2013-02-09, 10:14   Link #5875
Znozzy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Back in SEED it probably didn't (though I'd like to point out that it successfully deterred ZAFT in SEED and later thought it could deter ZAFT again in SEED Destiny).

But I'm not talking about that instance.
Honestly, it doesnt really matter what instance you are talking about, Orb can't deter the Zaft or EA forces. it's a small country with a small army, the only reason they " outlasted " Zaft in Destiny was because of Terminal/Arch angel, and Talia sending out a general retreat to the Zaft forces, Orb didn't win that battle, Zaft's object was never to destroy orb, only capture Djibril

When did Zaft ever attack Orb outside of Destiny? If you are talking about the small incident regarding the Arch Angel's first entry into orb, that was one submarine and the 4 stolen GAT-X series, not a big armed force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
Sorry I sorta started it lol, It sorta came up in one of my comments then the community did the rest of the work rofl, somewhat predictable actually

Wait until it blows up again with the SD remaster XD, I for one will have the popcorn ready
Save some for me
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Old 2013-02-09, 11:24   Link #5876
wredsa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
Im not gonna quote as that would take up too much space, I'm just gonna post

1. Impulse: I doubt it was designed specifically for the Freedom, if you wanted to go that far you would send in an equal or better unit with a nuclear reactor. Impulse's design just happened to be quite convenient vs Kira's battle style
Nuclear Reactor was banned, that is why they used Deutorion [spell check] beam to keep powering up Impulse.
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Old 2013-02-09, 13:13   Link #5877
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
More fanwanking.
More you ignoring people's character.
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We haven't really. There is nothing to suggest EA is willing to fire nuclear weapons at someone who can fire them back.
ZAFT has nuclear weapons. Instead of worrying about retaliation from that, the EA immediately equipped their own missiles and launch them.
Quote:
In fact they specifically made a point to show that the conflict between EA and ZAFT was brought to a complete stand still after ZAFT used GENESIS.
What show did you watch? They went back to attack after ZAFT used GENESIS, twice even.
Quote:
You're blatantly just not listening to me at all any more...

What did I just say? They had to go on and take control to prevent Kusanagi returning and/or prevent a resistance from forming.
If occupying Orb wasn't worth it, that wouldn't matter. Who cares if Kusanagi returns?
Quote:
Going on to invade Orb does not mean they think it was worth it in the end. All it means is that now that the damage is done, you simply take any consolation prize you can get.
Ah, so there is a prize for occupying Orb.
Quote:
No. They were former Eurasian Federation territories that had sided with ZAFT.



And like I said, EA attacked Orb in SEED does not prove that EA attacks anything everywhere for reasons I have already stated.

Nor does it prove that Orb can't deter EA after that.

But I'm glad you've finally decided to drop the useless Destroy argument...
Nope, the Destroy argument shows that the EA is vindictive. And Orb knows this from SEED.
Quote:
Back in SEED it probably didn't (though I'd like to point out that it successfully deterred ZAFT in SEED
When?
Quote:
and later thought it could deter ZAFT again in SEED Destiny).

But I'm not talking about that instance.
They didn't think they could deter ZAFT in Destiny, they thought they could fool ZAFT. But ZAFT wasn't fooled and they couldn't care less if they had to attack Orb to get one person.
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Old 2013-02-09, 16:54   Link #5878
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
More you ignoring people's character.
Sorry but unless you actually have something more substantial to back up your claims, I'm just going to go ahead and think it's fanwanking...

Quote:
ZAFT has nuclear weapons. Instead of worrying about retaliation from that, the EA immediately equipped their own missiles and launch them.
Because they didn't think any retaliation would happen. They did it completely without warning. Orb is not in the same situation. It wouldn't be able to repeat that action again, hence why EA didn't even try.

Quote:
What show did you watch? They went back to attack after ZAFT used GENESIS, twice even.
In space? When?

When he decided to use Requiem and assumed he would be able to destroy ZAFT in one surprise shot?

Quote:
If occupying Orb wasn't worth it, that wouldn't matter. Who cares if Kusanagi returns?
Erm..what? So it was worth invading Orb to prevent a resistance from forming if they invaded Orb? That doesn't make any sense...

Quote:
Ah, so there is a prize for occupying Orb.
Yes.

Like I said, it would be a consolation prize. If you don't understand what that means i suggest looking it up now before i go completely insane...

Quote:
Nope, the Destroy argument shows that the EA is vindictive. And Orb knows this from SEED.
Revelant

Irrelevant.

I don't know how many times I'll have to say this..drop the Destroy argument. It has no relevance. The point at the very start has been about Orb's perception of the EA before the treaty.

And no, the SEED invasion does not prove to Orb that they can't later deter EA nor does it prove to Orb that EA attacks just for being neutral.

Quote:
When?
Episode 25

Quote:
They didn't think they could deter ZAFT in Destiny, they thought they could fool ZAFT. But ZAFT wasn't fooled and they couldn't care less if they had to attack Orb to get one person.
They never once thought ZAFT would be fooled. It was a horrifically obvious lie that even they knew it would be. They very clearly did it to try and deter them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Honestly, it doesnt really matter what instance you are talking about, Orb can't deter the Zaft or EA forces. it's a small country with a small army, the only reason they " outlasted " Zaft in Destiny was because of Terminal/Arch angel, and Talia sending out a general retreat to the Zaft forces, Orb didn't win that battle, Zaft's object was never to destroy orb, only capture Djibril
I talked to monster before that I didn't expect Orb to have enough power to close the gap against EA and that there were far more factors involved in deterrence than just that. I don't think Orb can stand up to EA with conventional warfare power either.

Quote:
When did Zaft ever attack Orb outside of Destiny? If you are talking about the small incident regarding the Arch Angel's first entry into orb, that was one submarine and the 4 stolen GAT-X series, not a big armed force.
Indeed but if you pay attention in Episode 25, you'' recall a sceen between Athrun and his friends, how they were frustrated with Orb's obvious lie and how Athrun specifically shot down the idea of escalating things with Orb. If Orb were no problem then there'd be no issue with ZAFT declaring war on them for blatantly supporting the enemy. But as it stands, for a supposedly powerless nation they were pretty damn brave to take a hardline stance against a skirmish between two superpowers that could both crush Orb if they really wanted to.
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Old 2013-02-09, 18:48   Link #5879
Znozzy
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Indeed but if you pay attention in Episode 25, you'' recall a sceen between Athrun and his friends, how they were frustrated with Orb's obvious lie and how Athrun specifically shot down the idea of escalating things with Orb. If Orb were no problem then there'd be no issue with ZAFT declaring war on them for blatantly supporting the enemy.
Athrun didnt want Zaft to escalate things with Orb because he kinda, you know, had all his friends there, including his fiancÚ and uh, he had been living there since the end of the last war.

Quote:
But as it stands, for a supposedly powerless nation they were pretty damn brave to take a hardline stance against a skirmish between two superpowers that could both crush Orb if they really wanted to.
They didnt take a hardline stance, even Yuna had issues with them joining up with the EA, and his family brokered the deal. Orb allied up with the EA for survival and bad storywriting, lol.

Lets see Orbs three options:

Ally up with the EA or be destroyed
Don't ally up with the EA and be destroyed
Ally up with Zaft and be Destroyed

Honestly, its pretty logical why they made the deal and signed the Alliance, even if it went against everything the country stood for.

Once again, as you mentioned earlier, when did Orb deter Zaft?

Are you simply overanalyzing the entire situation and drawing your own wild conclusions based on your own opionions regarding this entire thing? you keep posting without any actual facts to support your claims except your own wild imagination regarding the show.
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Old 2013-02-09, 19:12   Link #5880
amaterasu4
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About the controversial Freedom Kira vs Impulse Shinn, it looks like if Sunrise had already planned this fight from the series' start considering the first opening of the series. Episode 35 used the same animation but with a different background.



I think one of the reasons to which this fight causes so much talk is that in previous fight Freedom took no damage. Here we see it taking a hit every single minute. Not even Athrun could hit Kira even though they were using swords.



It's like if the budget from the previous episodes was so low they couldn't revise every Freedom shot to show it damaged. I think they overdid by giving such a dramatic ending to Freedom vs Impulse. They could have just damaged the mobile suit a lot without sword piercing the body and simply recover its parts and upgrade them to get Strike Freedom. But yeah, that's just an opinion.
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