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Old 2013-02-08, 10:56   Link #121
willx
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Relevant to this discussion: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...48#post4546448

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Old 2013-02-08, 11:10   Link #122
Kudryavka
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Damn, is he a trollin'? Or just that culturally insensitive??
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Old 2013-02-08, 11:46   Link #123
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
Damn, is he a trollin'? Or just that culturally insensitive??
I'm going to go with "well meaning but stupid and embarrassing to the rest of us"
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Old 2013-02-08, 11:48   Link #124
Ridwan
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He sure knows The Orient.
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Old 2013-02-08, 13:19   Link #125
Mitsuho
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It's cultural tightrope to walk when discussing offensive language. Already so much is lost in a written medium. I hope RichB has someone to talk to before they get bitter. The more one holds onto stereotypes, the worse the betrayal of expectations can be when they find a real person instead.

Last edited by Mitsuho; 2013-02-08 at 15:27. Reason: Removed comment about moderation.
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Old 2013-02-08, 13:22   Link #126
Kudryavka
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I'm going to go with "well meaning but stupid and embarrassing to the rest of us"
The worst kind. They're being mean and don't even realize it, so they'll probably never stop until they die, thinking that what they did was a-OK and the nicest thing in the world.

At least people who are mean on purpose know how to stop being mean.
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Old 2013-02-08, 13:39   Link #127
Mitsuho
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Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
The worst kind. They're being mean and don't even realize it, so they'll probably never stop until they die, thinking that what they did was a-OK and the nicest thing in the world.

At least people who are mean on purpose know how to stop being mean.
I would like to argue the opposite. Mean on purpose implies malicious or humorous intent. Either could cause harm. No one likes being laughed at.

Ever had someone who just didn't like you? Sometimes we can't stop being ourselves regardless of intent. Like 'meanness' it can be near impossible to shut off.

Hopefully this potentially well meaning human gets real, immediate, and applicable advice. Men throwing their biologically driven stupid at other people and receiving rejections is a recipe for 'nice guy.' The result is just as tough to watch as friends who stay with those 'I know how to protect a woman' men.

Last edited by Mitsuho; 2013-02-08 at 13:41. Reason: English.
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Old 2013-02-08, 13:45   Link #128
Kudryavka
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Originally Posted by Mitsuho View Post
I would like to argue the opposite. Mean on purpose implies malicious or humorous intent. Either could cause harm. No one likes being laughed at.

Ever had someone who just didn't like you? Sometimes we can't stop being ourselves regardless of intent. Like 'meanness' it can be near impossible to shut off.

Hopefully this potentially well meaning human gets real, immediate, and applicable advice. Men throwing their biologically driven stupid at other people and receiving rejections is a recipe for 'nice guy.' The result is just as tough to watch as friends who stay with those 'I know how to protect a woman' men.
If you don't know that there's a problem, how are you supposed to know you need to fix it?

Yes people who are mean on purpose have malicious intent, but the key is that they can change and stop whenever they want to. A ignorant person does not know that they're being mean, so they cannot possibly stop whenever they want to, not without someone telling them what's wrong. I would think the ignorant person will do it more often than the mean person because the ignorant one believes he's being nice. There are more well-meaning people in the world than mean, evil ones who are mean on purpose.
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Old 2013-02-08, 14:12   Link #129
Mitsuho
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Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
If you don't know that there's a problem, how are you supposed to know you need to fix it?

Yes people who are mean on purpose have malicious intent, but the key is that they can change and stop whenever they want to. A ignorant person does not know that they're being mean, so they cannot possibly stop whenever they want to, not without someone telling them what's wrong. I would think the ignorant person will do it more often than the mean person because the ignorant one believes he's being nice. There are more well-meaning people in the world than mean, evil ones who are mean on purpose.
Arguing for well-intentioned as the worst kind in terms of aggregate social effect? If so I don't have sufficient data to agree or disagree but on gut feeling alone I'd have to conceded that it seems errors of ignorance would be significantly more numerous.

Nature, and to a much lesser mandatory education, both leave humans ill equipped to handle cultural differences.
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Old 2013-02-08, 14:19   Link #130
Kudryavka
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Originally Posted by Mitsuho View Post
Arguing for well-intentioned as the worst kind in terms of aggregate social effect? If so I don't have sufficient data to agree or disagree but on gut feeling alone I'd have to conceded that it seems errors of ignorance would be significantly more numerous.

Nature, and to a much lesser mandatory education, both leave humans ill equipped to handle cultural differences.
Yessir. We are all not amazing at handling cultural differences. The best we can do is be open to different cultural ideas, but since we are where we are raised, that is not extremely easy.

And in this case, "well-intentioned" == "errors of ignorance". That's what I meant when I say well-intentioned. Only talking about people who end up being mean or hurting other people's feelings regardless of whether or not they meant to. Not people who mean well and actually do well.
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Old 2013-02-08, 14:53   Link #131
Mitsuho
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Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
The best we can do is be open to different cultural ideas, but since we are where we are raised, that is not extremely easy.
In terms of morality, outside of rhetorical edge cases, meanness is worse than ignorance. A micro view of motivation can exist separate from the macro effect.

Mean+Ill intent > Mean+No ill intent

How can the ignorant be the worst when their motivation is good and can be taught to be more open to cultural ideas? We all start somewhere. The way I see it, we are normalizing each other and lurkers to a new animesuki culture. Ultimately the ideas may be rejected or subsumed in a very subtle manner.

It's usually not blatant like 'We are now oppressing cross cultural daters!' RichB isn't here to hear us. The only ones benefiting from evaluating where and in what manner of offense they have committed is us.

Like tailoring one's communication to meet each individual differently, the way one would approach ignorance and meanness differs. It might be easier for one communication style or cultural product to deal with rational meanness but that doesn't exclude those who are great at educating and deprogramming stereotypes.
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Old 2013-02-08, 15:14   Link #132
Kudryavka
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Originally Posted by Mitsuho View Post
In terms of morality, outside of rhetorical edge cases, meanness is worse than ignorance. A micro view of motivation can exist separate from the macro effect.

Mean+Ill intent > Mean+No ill intent

How can the ignorant be the worst when their motivation is good and can be taught to be more open to cultural ideas? We all start somewhere. The way I see it, we are normalizing each other and lurkers to a new animesuki culture. Ultimately the ideas may be rejected or subsumed in a very subtle manner.

It's usually not blatant like 'We are now oppressing cross cultural daters!' RichB isn't here to hear us. The only ones benefiting from evaluating where and in what manner of offense they have committed is us.

Like tailoring one's communication to meet each individual differently, the way one would approach ignorance and meanness differs. It might be easier for one communication style or cultural product to deal with rational meanness but that doesn't exclude those who are great at educating and deprogramming stereotypes.
Ignorant people cannot necessarily be taught that what they do is wrong.

And, mean comments hurt no matter who says them or why (unless its a friend or something). Yes ignorant people may be able to be fixed, but who's going to fix them? They can't fix themselves. A person who knows they are wrong could fix themselves, or pretend to be nice when they want. An ignorant person can't pretend. But again, the comments themselves are equally hurtful.
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Old 2013-02-08, 15:25   Link #133
Mitsuho
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Mean people cannot necessarily be made to stop. <g>

I apologize if I offended anyone with my comments on the last page. I hope it's not too futile to think I can still be fixed. Physician heal thyself.
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Old 2013-02-08, 15:33   Link #134
Kudryavka
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Originally Posted by Mitsuho View Post
Mean people cannot necessarily be made to stop. <g>
Exactly. I never said they could be made to. I said they could in theory stop themselves because they know what they do is wrong. Which does not mean they would, but possibility may be there.
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Old 2013-02-08, 15:43   Link #135
Mitsuho
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We cannot strive to look out the sides of our eyes, trying to catch a glimpse of where we didn't previously know that we were ignorant?

Surely you and I are seeing some evidence of the pain we leave in our wakes? Is there nothing to be done for our blindness?
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Old 2013-02-08, 18:08   Link #136
Kudryavka
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Originally Posted by Mitsuho View Post
We cannot strive to look out the sides of our eyes, trying to catch a glimpse of where we didn't previously know that we were ignorant?

Surely you and I are seeing some evidence of the pain we leave in our wakes? Is there nothing to be done for our blindness?
I'm gonna say now if you're ignorant, you don't know it. That is ignorance.
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Old 2013-02-10, 02:14   Link #137
sezen_atacan
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Maybe some of the blame for the negative reputation that moderate anime fans get can be placed on the fringe radicals that is taking JPOP overly seriously.

My only beef with some of the so-called "wapanese" is how their love for anime and JRPGs made them love Japan unconditionally to the point of allying themselves with Japan's fringe far right. You know, people like Ishihara, Hashimoto and their Uyoku-Dantai cronies? Taking sides with a tunnel vision on political matters they know nothing of in terms of their true depth and complexity.

As someone here mentioned earlier I am refering to a particular type of "anime-fans" commonly seen on the likes of Sankaku Complex and 4chan. Sankaku is especially worrying though, those guys have potential for violence, judging from their comments.
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Old 2013-02-10, 03:12   Link #138
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by sezen_atacan View Post
My only beef with some of the so-called "wapanese" is how their love for anime and JRPGs made them love Japan unconditionally to the point of allying themselves with Japan's fringe far right. You know, people like Ishihara, Hashimoto and their Uyoku-Dantai cronies? Taking sides with a tunnel vision on political matters they know nothing of in terms of their true depth and complexity.
No way, seriously? I don't think even Japan otaku has anything good to say about at least the one I bolded. isn't he regarded as a public enemy among otakus?
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Old 2013-02-10, 05:28   Link #139
Kudryavka
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Originally Posted by sezen_atacan View Post

As someone here mentioned earlier I am refering to a particular type of "anime-fans" commonly seen on the likes of Sankaku Complex and 4chan. Sankaku is especially worrying though, those guys have potential for violence, judging from their comments.
Ugh, Sankaku is pretty much just a pile of lies and shit... the little interesting truth that can be gleaned can be found much easier somewhere else. And yes the comments there scare me too, but I thought they were all troll comments because they dislike Sankaku as well. Seems they're actually serious?
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Old 2013-02-10, 06:11   Link #140
Mr. DJ
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Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
WHAT clothing got to do with weeaboo? Except wearing cat ears and cat tail to school.
well, you can by anime character outfits though this isn't just restricted to those diehard anime fans...I knew a guy in highschool that was a Bruce Lee fanatic...he wore this black kung fu uniform EVERYDAY.
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