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Old 2013-02-02, 15:41   Link #81
Sunder the Gold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orange Duke View Post
But that's not what we're discussing. O.O We're discussing the possibility of metal avatars having access to a wide variety of level up bonuses while chromatic avatars are limited by their affinities.
Looking back, I see where I misunderstood you.

Still, if chromatic avatars cannot choose abilities outside of their specialties, what choice would that possibly leave them?

Further, what about Red Rider's horse? No one was more purely Red than he, yet a horse is not inherently inclined toward shooting like another gun would be, and in fact can be employed well as a close combat weapon. Surely he had the option of improving his horse rather than his firearms or gunplay.

This is assuming that he even started with the horse, rather than gaining it through a bonus. Granted, his name is Rider, but his avatar is explicitly themes as a "Cowboy". Between that and his color, he had to start with at least one gun. A gun and a horse, and a special move... seems a bit much for a Level 1. Or else it was a somewhat whimpy horse.

As a Green avatar, Ash Roller might have had the option to improve his own personal armor.

Quote:
He was in the Purgatory stage, in the enclosed corridors of the hospital. Why in the world would he need longer range???
Because at that particular moment, Silver Crow had dodged around him and had newrly escaped down the hallway. The pile just barely reached him.

As to accuracy, we have no idea if Pile was aiming for center mass, the head or some other vital point, or actually intended to hit a ridiculously tricky spot like the elbow.


One stance or the other doesn't truly matter. He can slide a foot back or forward and quickly change his torso's direction... Except when using Lightning Cyan Spike, which anchors his feet.

The issue is that he needs to get his stake out of the way, either by waiting for it to retract, or swinging the whole ungainly extended thing out of Splash's firing zone.

Firing at the same time is foolish, but a rapid combo ought to be possible.

However, if the Splash is actually a special rather than normal attack, that changes things somewhat.
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Old 2013-02-03, 00:45   Link #82
Orange Duke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Still, if chromatic avatars cannot choose abilities outside of their specialties, what choice would that possibly leave them?
Erm, abilities inside their specialties, obviously? O.o

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Further, what about Red Rider's horse? No one was more purely Red than he, yet a horse is not inherently inclined toward shooting like another gun would be, and in fact can be employed well as a close combat weapon. Surely he had the option of improving his horse rather than his firearms or gunplay.

This is assuming that he even started with the horse, rather than gaining it through a bonus. Granted, his name is Rider, but his avatar is explicitly themes as a "Cowboy". Between that and his color, he had to start with at least one gun. A gun and a horse, and a special move... seems a bit much for a Level 1. Or else it was a somewhat whimpy horse.
The horse might not have had any offensive abilities at all. Heck, if a DUEL AVATAR, something made explicitly to fight, could be created without any offensive ability (White Cosmos), what more a horse? It could be purely for cosmetic purposes, or it could be a form of personal transport which improves his speed when travelling in the Unlimited Neutral Field.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Because at that particular moment, Silver Crow had dodged around him and had newrly escaped down the hallway. The pile just barely reached him.
Not necessarily. Since having the pile extended left him vulnerable, it would be in his favour to return the pile back as soon as it hit Crow.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
As to accuracy, we have no idea if Pile was aiming for center mass, the head or some other vital point, or actually intended to hit a ridiculously tricky spot like the elbow.
Irregardless, we cannot simply disregard the fact that he managed to spear a small bug on the wall without even looking at it with something as unwieldy as his pile driver. Most of us can't even hit a fly with our bare hands

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
The issue is that he needs to get his stake out of the way, either by waiting for it to retract, or swinging the whole ungainly extended thing out of Splash's firing zone.
Splash Stinger is a series of needle guns on his chest. The projectiles fire straight forward. As his pile driver is to the side, there is no obstruction of the firing zone.
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Old 2013-02-03, 01:02   Link #83
Tusjecht
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About abilities within abilities, this is most likely the case. Eg. Black Lotus got her Death By Embracing at level 8, which was after 8 levels of pumping her bonuses into her sword limbs.

Rider probably never even had the horse, remember he had Arms Creation doing all the work. As an Enhanced Armament, there's probably very little potential left for a horse, even with zero offensive ability? A horse, like Ash's bike, still has some capacity to deal damage by blunt strikes, i.e ramming, trampling the opponent.
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Old 2013-02-03, 01:28   Link #84
Orange Duke
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Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
A horse, like Ash's bike, still has some capacity to deal damage by blunt strikes, i.e ramming, trampling the opponent.
That is like saying Cosmos is able to deal damage because she has limbs to punch and kick with, but we know for a fact that she has absolutely zero offensive abilities.
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Old 2013-02-03, 01:33   Link #85
Tusjecht
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Well, no one has actually seen her avatar, and neither has KYH talked about her...

Wait, what were we saying about the horse?
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Old 2013-02-03, 01:55   Link #86
Orange Duke
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Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
Well, no one has actually seen her avatar, and neither has KYH talked about her...
Light novel readers have confirmed that fact, so no matter how you argue it, it isn't going to change things.

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Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
Wait, what were we saying about the horse?
-.-""

That it might have had no offensive abilities but was there for either cosmetic purposes or to make travel in the Unlimited Field faster?
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Old 2013-02-03, 02:01   Link #87
Tusjecht
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Oh right that.

So could Rider have a horse, is that the question? I'll think about it at work. No more internetz for now. ):
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Old 2013-02-03, 02:02   Link #88
Orange Duke
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Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
Oh right that.

So could Rider have a horse, is that the question? I'll think about it at work. No more internetz for now. ):
Rider has a horse. It was seen rearing up next to Purple Thorn in the playback of the first King's Summit when he was beheaded.
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Old 2013-02-09, 21:07   Link #89
Sunder the Gold
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Originally Posted by Orange Duke View Post
Erm, abilities inside their specialties, obviously? O.o
Then why would Graphite Edge need to advise his fellow legionaires to focus only on bonuses to their color specialties, and why is it significant that Scarlet Rain focused entirely on Long Range Firepower?


Quote:
The horse might not have had any offensive abilities at all.
It has legs. If it has the strength to bear a rider and gallop, it has the strength to kick and stomp. The same realism that has Ash Roller's V-Thunder with rear-wheel-only drive and an actual gasoline tank that can run empty.

Besides, I'd like to think that the horse was often equipped with artillery much too heavy for a pure Red weakling to lift and control. Side-mounted railguns and missle pods!

[Reds have to be the physically weakest of avatars to counterbalance their range advantage, and Rider was apparently built lightweight for speed (on foot or horse). Armor and muscles are heavy.]


Quote:
Heck, if a DUEL AVATAR, something made explicitly to fight, could be created without any offensive ability (White Cosmos)
No one ever said that White Cosmos can't fight, just that she can't attack. Or that she has no particular ability for attacking. Since she has hands, she ought to at least be able to punch.

Who knows? Maybe WC started as a Level 1 avatar with purely defensive powers and a special ability to automatically win any duel in which she took no damage (as opposed to facing a Draw)?


Quote:
Not necessarily. Since having the pile extended left him vulnerable, it would be in his favour to return the pile back as soon as it hit Crow.
Of course retracting the stake as soon as possible is best. The question has always been "how fast can he do it?"


Also, interesting fact: The Pile Driver has an independent "energy gauge" like the Gale Thruster, which limits how soon Cyan Pile can fire off the next shot.

I bet Cyan Pile could have devoted bonuses to increasing the energy pool or reducing the charge time. I'm guessing that Fuuko could have done the same with the Gale Thruster, but she was obsessed with attaining the greatest height possible, and so focused entirely on the distance and power of a single burn. According to the LN, if it weren't for IS, she could only use the booster every ten minutes (which is not even enough for three activations during a normal 30-minute duel).


Quote:
Irregardless
Minor nitpick: That's not actually a word. It's just "regardless".


Quote:
we cannot simply disregard the fact that he managed to spear a small bug on the wall without even looking at it with something as unwieldy as his pile driver. Most of us can't even hit a fly with our bare hands
Impressive, yes. But not all small bugs are as agile as flies, and the bug made no fly-speed reaction to Pile's attack. Dusk Taker used his stolen tentacles to grab up a number of the same bugs while trying not to be obvious about it.


Quote:
Splash Stinger is a series of needle guns on his chest. The projectiles fire straight forward.
Seems to me that there is a slight "cone of fire", where the target area is larger than the firing area of his chest.

Quote:
As his pile driver is to the side, there is no obstruction of the firing zone.
His pile starts on his right side and then slants centerward to hit a target right in front of him, which places it directly in the firing zone of Splash Stinger.
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Old 2013-02-09, 21:39   Link #90
Cytrus
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Taking a short look through this thread, I see numerous statements that White Cosmos has "no offensive ability" / "is incapable of direct attacks". May someone tell me where this idea comes from?

From volume 12, KYH on White Cosmos:

"彼女が遠隔にせよ近接にせよ、一切の物理攻撃力を持たないことを知っていた

"I knew she had no physical attack power whatsoever, be it close or long range"

It seems reasonable that White Cosmos has some beam/spiritual/magic/whatever means of attack. It would be unnatural to have the word "physical" there if that were not the case.
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Old 2013-02-09, 21:53   Link #91
Sunder the Gold
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Oh, thank goodness. We were working off an inaccurate translation. That makes a hell of a lot more sense.


(This also means that my Snow Man/Woman/Angel avatar idea might be valid.)
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Old 2013-02-10, 09:03   Link #92
Orange Duke
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Then why would Graphite Edge need to advise his fellow legionaires to focus only on bonuses to their color specialties, and why is it significant that Scarlet Rain focused entirely on Long Range Firepower?
What makes you think that there aren't specialties WITHIN colour specialties themselves? Indirect attacks can vary from illusions, buffs and attacks that do no damage themselves but cause something to happen that results in the opponent being damaged. Clearly Lotus' Absolute Cutting property resulted from her avatar, and this property was classified under the colour black, causing her avatar to be black.

Not to mention all the other legionaries except Lotus were not pure colours and thus had access to a range of options. Did the LN specifically mention 'COLOUR specialties' or was it simply 'specialties'?

As for Scarlet Rain, I already addressed this in a previous post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orange Duke View Post
Don't forget though that Scarlet Rain isn't 100% pure red, a fact that Yellow Radio never fails to remind her of (kukukunowisn'tthatcolourabitcheaplooking...).

According to wikipedia,
Quote:
Scarlet (from the Persian سقرلات saqerlt; see Scarlet (cloth)) is a bright reddish orange color with a hue that is somewhat toward the orange and is redder than vermilion.
So they could be referring to the fact that Rain still has access to yellow/orange bonuses.
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
It has legs. If it has the strength to bear a rider and gallop, it has the strength to kick and stomp. The same realism that has Ash Roller's V-Thunder with rear-wheel-only drive and an actual gasoline tank that can run empty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
No one ever said that White Cosmos can't fight, just that she can't attack. Or that she has no particular ability for attacking. Since she has hands, she ought to at least be able to punch.
Whether her punches does any damage is another thing. The horse might be able to support an avatar, but it can simply do so from a knockback effect it exerts on the ground. In other words, when it gallops nothing is disturbed/moved/crushed etc.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Besides, I'd like to think that the horse was often equipped with artillery much too heavy for a pure Red weakling to lift and control. Side-mounted railguns and missle pods!

[Reds have to be the physically weakest of avatars to counterbalance their range advantage, and Rider was apparently built lightweight for speed (on foot or horse). Armor and muscles are heavy.]
There isn't anything concrete to support this, unfortunately, so you'll forgive me if we ignore this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Of course retracting the stake as soon as possible is best. The question has always been "how fast can he do it?"


Also, interesting fact: The Pile Driver has an independent "energy gauge" like the Gale Thruster, which limits how soon Cyan Pile can fire off the next shot.
Recharging his pile takes only mere seconds, and Pile did prove that he didn't really care if Crow got away since he was confident of winning the duel .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Impressive, yes. But not all small bugs are as agile as flies, and the bug made no fly-speed reaction to Pile's attack. Dusk Taker used his stolen tentacles to grab up a number of the same bugs while trying not to be obvious about it.
Even then, being able to hit something that small with a weapon as unwieldy as a pile driver is testament to how well Pile can aim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Seems to me that there is a slight "cone of fire", where the target area is larger than the firing area of his chest.
Spoiler for :

His chest is an outwards V shape. The spikes curve inwards to shoot straight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
His pile starts on his right side and then slants centerward to hit a target right in front of him, which places it directly in the firing zone of Splash Stinger.
Would like to see some evidence supporting this, as it makes absolutely no sense. Not only does this make it much much harder to aim, but the simple solution of simply moving so that the opponent is standing in front of his pile would have sufficed if it moved straight forwards.

Last edited by Orange Duke; 2013-02-10 at 12:23.
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Old 2013-02-10, 11:52   Link #93
Sunder the Gold
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Dude, please contain that picture within spoiler tags. You're stretching the page.


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Originally Posted by Orange Duke View Post
That was likely because the wings were a body part/skill rather than an armament.
I was wrong, you were right.

LNs confirm that the clippers and tentacles ARE enhanced armaments, not body parts. They and Pyro Dealer kept their original colors, and perhaps forms. Gale Thruster was also a sky blue.

Only the wings were not an enhanced armament, so it makes sense that therefore they would be the only thing stolen which would change to match Dusk Taker's appearance.

Which further suggests that the Sacred Arcs will not change color or appearance based on their owner.


Logically, the armaments that Taker stole cannot be the initial equipment of his victims, or else they'd demand storage space comparable to Cyan Pile's Pile Driver. Noumi simply didn't have the option of dropping his stolen equipment to take the Pile Driver; it was bigger than all three (or more) of them combined.

The Pyro Dealer was a strong weapon, and furthermore one that Taker hadn't stolen until he gained the power of flight.

The clippers and tentacles might have been secondary weapons gained through bonuses, or bought from the shop. But what about the Pyro Dealer? An enemy drop?


But a much bigger question: According to the LNs (and maybe the anime, I don't remember), Dusk Taker didn't have Demonic Commandeer at Level 1. He had to gain various levels AND recieve training from the Research Society first.

I recall that Haruyuki didn't discover Aviation until his second/third fight, and that it apparently didn't register on his menu. But Headbutt did, and Commandeer is a special move like that.

Where was Dusk Taker's power? It couldn't really have lacked ANY ability.
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Old 2013-02-10, 12:23   Link #94
Orange Duke
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Dude, please contain that picture within spoiler tags. You're stretching the page.
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2.4 Do not make image heavy posts
This is a discussion forum not an image board; posts must contain more than just images or links to images. In addition, please do not make posts with large images unless it's specifically applicable to the thread in question. If you want to include screenshots, wallpapers, art and so forth, please link them by means of the URL tag. Small thumbnails, which link to the larger images, are an acceptable alternative.
Please Note: "Hiding" images in spoiler tags does NOT save on bandwidth. Even if the spoiler is never opened the entire image is downloaded every time the post is displayed. Please only post large images in this way when they are specifically applicable to the thread in question, and the image would distort the page layout if it were not inside the spoiler tag.
Image doesn't stretch the page for me, but then again I have a huge-ass monitor.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
The clippers and tentacles might have been secondary weapons gained through bonuses, or bought from the shop.
Tentacles are confirmed to be stolen. Taker specifically mentions them having a previous owner who said they looked like starfish tentacles.
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Old 2013-02-10, 12:53   Link #95
Sunder the Gold
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Tentacles are confirmed to be stolen. Taker specifically mentions them having a previous owner who said they looked like starfish tentacles.
That's not evidence. The anime translation made it sound like the victim had an avatar which looked like a starfish, and Taker stole one of his arms.

The evidence is that Taker banishes the tentacles along with the clippers when he gives the vocal command to store all of his equipped enhanced armaments.


But anyway, how seriously are we supposed to take this idea that Dusk Taker had no special move or ability -- no way to spend SP at all -- until after he leveled up a few times? Even Silver Crow had Headbutt before he knew about Aviation.

Equally preposterous: With no ability and no equipment, just how was he able to scrape together enough victories to pay points to his brother AND collect enough to level up for himself?
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Old 2013-02-10, 17:19   Link #96
Tusjecht
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
That's not evidence. The anime translation made it sound like the victim had an avatar which looked like a starfish, and Taker stole one of his arms.

The evidence is that Taker banishes the tentacles along with the clippers when he gives the vocal command to store all of his equipped enhanced armaments.


But anyway, how seriously are we supposed to take this idea that Dusk Taker had no special move or ability -- no way to spend SP at all -- until after he leveled up a few times? Even Silver Crow had Headbutt before he knew about Aviation.

Equally preposterous: With no ability and no equipment, just how was he able to scrape together enough victories to pay points to his brother AND collect enough to level up for himself?
Maybe DT also had a finisher move, in addition to his claw melee attacks, he had a ranged finisher (which after he got Demonic Commandeer was rarely used).
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Old 2013-02-10, 17:22   Link #97
Sunder the Gold
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But Noumi said Dusk Taker had no power other than Demonic Commandeer.

The glowing claws were an Incarnate Skill. The normal claws would have been no more impressive than a basic punch attack (and less impressive than Silver Crow's Aviation-assisted punches.)
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Old 2013-02-10, 17:26   Link #98
Tusjecht
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Oh right. The exact line went: "...and got my first special move, DC..."

Well then, if you remember the flashback of Noumi vs Noumi, he probably scratched, punched, and kicked his opponents to death as well?
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Old 2013-02-10, 19:37   Link #99
Sunder the Gold
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Oh right. The exact line went: "...and got my first special move, DC..."

Well then, if you remember the flashback of Noumi vs Noumi, he probably scratched, punched, and kicked his opponents to death as well?
As a speed-type, and not even a Blue speed-type, that doesn't seem like a sound strategy.

Especially since, as I said, he would have no weapon or special ability, whereas everyone else DOES.

Reds would shoot him. Blues would dominate him. Yellows would confuse, bind or poison him and then kick him while he's down.

Dueling really depends on your avatar's potential somehow being equal to that of anyone else of the same level, so that you can win on something more than dumb luck and determination.


Honestly, I'm not sure why Aviation wasn't on Silver Crow's moves list. Especially considering that it was the one ability that the entire avatar was built around, so that it had no potential for anything else.

Just imagine if the Pile Driver had been hidden in Cyan Pile's storage, and with no moves visible on his status menu to indicate that it even existed. It's absurd!
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Old 2013-02-10, 20:02   Link #100
Tusjecht
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Yes, but that's exactly what I'm saying. Dusk Taker is at a severe disadvantage to most other avatars until it could Commandeer a couple of Armaments and/or special moves. He can steal those too.

Silver Crow had to win his fight against AR the second time by both dumb luck and quick thinking. He practically burnt off his feet waiting for a chance.

Aviation would fall under avatar movement control, there should be no need for moves describing exactly how your avatar can move, methinks?

About the pile driver...well, either it was equipped by default, or Taku guessed the rest of his moves were locked up in an armament or an upgrade he'd get later.
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