[Manga] Naruto Chapter 619 Discussion Thread

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by owlman

What does he think about the world, whats his philosophy?

In case of Naruto calling it "philosophy" would be strange
But rather than trying to analyze it here are some examples:
- he doesn't want to choose between the village and Sasuke, that's not standard hokage thinking, even Itachi chose the village over his clan and the 3rd says he was thinking like a hokage
- Naruto decided to forgive Pain/Nagato and let him go, he even had a serious debate with Ino's and Shikamaru's father
- he promised to the 9 tailed beasts to set them free, but he should know that in the current ninja village system both these tailed beasts and the hosts are simply regarded as property of the village

Originally Posted by The Small One

I really wonder what will happen to the alliance after this war is over.
At the moment it really develops into some sort of understanding between the different ninja villages and it's hard to believe they are going to fight each other again after what they've gone through together.

Human history is all about becoming friends against a common enemy, and once the enemy is destroyed the alliance breaks down and the allies often become enemies themselves. If Kishimoto chooses to continue this manga after all the current enemies are dealt with then breaking the alliance would be one realistic way to do it. But it's also a question what the alliance is now, because it seems that the alliance army will be almost completely annihilated in war, both the army and the command center is being killed. They were who fought together, they were the core of the friendship between the villages, those who stayed home probably didn't change much, so unless the army returns to their homes villages with their new way of thinking there won't be real peace between villages. So i wonder if Kishimoto will resurrect the whole army... It's not unprecedented that Kishimoto chose the simple way: when Naruto lets Nagato go it would have been interesting if Nagato simply escaped and didn't change his mind and then Naruto blamed for it and had to leave Konoha, or when Naruto is called the revolutionary but then it's Sasuke who deals with Konoha's ugly past by killing Danzou. So it's probably more likely that there's a mass resurrection of the army and then everybody goes back to his own village and changes the mentality of their own village and also Naruto returns to Konoha and becomes hokage right away. But wouldn't it be much more interesting if the alliance army stayed dead, the people of the 5 villages would continue where they were before this alliance, the smaller villages would try to expand their power now that the great 5 lost most of their power...

Originally Posted by Artful Dodger

He doesn't have much of a meaningful relationship with anyone there (except perhaps Kakashi, or Sakura if you want to push it),

That's surely the biggest problem with the idea. But the ex-genins of his ninja academy class were as close to him as to Naruto, even if now they want to kill him but there was a time when they risked their life to return him to the village telling that he is one of them. So the situation can be reversed. And its not unprecedented, just look at Gaara, he was hated by the village and was murdering people even inside the village, then suddenly after a timeskip he becomes the kazekage and sand genin girls throw their panties at him lol. If Naruto were to just drag back Sasuke to Konoha and many people were still against an Uchiha being in the village then we would be back at square one, that is nothing changed in the relation of the village and Uchiha.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

- he doesn't want to choose between the village and Sasuke, that's not standard hokage thinking, even Itachi chose the village over his clan and the 3rd says he was thinking like a hokage

itachi chose sasuke and the village also

But wouldn't it be much more interesting if the alliance army stayed dead, the people of the 5 villages would continue where they were before this alliance, the smaller villages would try to expand their power now that the great 5 lost most of their power...

yes... i will be very disappointed to see another mass resurrection.

That's surely the biggest problem with the idea. But the ex-genins of his ninja academy class were as close to him as to Naruto, even if now they want to kill him but there was a time when they risked their life to return him to the village telling that he is one of them. So the situation can be reversed. And its not unprecedented, just look at Gaara, he was hated by the village and was murdering people even inside the village, then suddenly after a timeskip he becomes the kazekage and sand genin girls throw their panties at him lol. If Naruto were to just drag back Sasuke to Konoha and many people were still against an Uchiha being in the village then we would be back at square one, that is nothing changed in the relation of the village and Uchiha.

i still dont think it will happen where sasuke is hokage, but i can justify it with what you've said here. naruto wanted to be the fifth, but he has waited his turn through tsunade and danzo. he would probably step aside again if it meant sasuke would return and be acknowledged. it's clearly not mandatory that the people of the village like the hokage as shown by danzo's appointment, so people liking sasuke is a moot point. i wonder how much the daimyos actually know about the uchiha massacre. they seem pretty far removed from the inner workings of the village and only seem to care about their own protection and the country's border and financial stability. the ninja really are just tools to them which is what may change after this war if the ninjas unite and refuse to be treated that way anymore.

[Dengar]

I don't think Naruto ever forgave Nagato.

And before you go raging against me, I'd like to point out that not killing a guy isn't the same as forgiving them.

He actually allowed Nagato to take responsibility for his actions.

To forgive is not to let them go, but to absolve them of responsibility.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

itachi chose sasuke and the village also

And Itachi also left. .

For the peace of the nations alliance, someone so singularly powerful could not exist or claim residence within one country. That would just promote fear which would lead to war. Hashirama understood this when he split up the Bijuu.

Th only way I could see Naruto staying in Konoha to become the next Hokage is if he loses the Kyuubi (as it is, I fully expect Sasuke to lose his eyes by the end of the series, or have them simply evolve to the Rinnegan, thus destroying the instability that is the Sharingan).

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Huh? We were told he was just like Naruto so there was really nothing surprising here. We knew Hashirama was the Naruto-type who want to make friend with everybody and it was obvious that his brother was however the suspicious type whose distrust paved the way for a future rebellion.

Y'know, you're right, but I was still a little surprised at their personalities. I had imagined Hashirama to be closer in personality to Hiruzen... warm-hearted but still calm and reserved. I didn't expect him to be the complete goofball he was here. Not that I mind it really, it just seemed odd.

And Tobirama. The fact he that he came up with a jutsu like Edo Tensei put his morality into question before. And his suspicion against the Uchiha was already known. Still, I didn't think he was this cold-hearted of a bastard. To be so openly prejudiced against the Uchiha. Not even a little bothered to hear the clan had been massacred. Though he's still a good guy, he's definitely a bit of an a**hole, which he seems to be perfectly aware of.

Originally Posted by james0246

For the peace of the nations alliance, someone so singularly powerful could not exist or claim residence within one country. That would just promote fear which would lead to war. Hashirama understood this when he split up the Bijuu.

Th only way I could see Naruto staying in Konoha to become the next Hokage is if he loses the Kyuubi (as it is, I fully expect Sasuke to lose his eyes by the end of the series, or have them simply evolve to the Rinnegan, thus destroying the instability that is the Sharingan).

If there's true peace among the villages--not just the uneasy truce between wars like before--then I think Naruto could become Hokage even with the Kyuubi. Before there was mistrust among the villages and fear of bijuu. But the remaining bijuu have been all but domesticated and the villages are pretty much united already under Naruto. The jinchuuriki are now saviors and known to be altogether benevolent so the fear of them being unpredictable weapons is gone. Frankly, I'll be surprised if the separate village system remains after this.

But, I do imagine Naruto will lose the Kyuubi and Bee the Hachibi. Now that the bijuu have been shown to have human-like feelings and attachments, it seems kind of unfair to have them sealed as prisoners, even if they may genuinely care about their hosts. Wouldn't be surprised if they somehow merge back with the juubi and "purify" it, then leave so that its power can't be used for destruction again.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

And Tobirama. The very fact he that he came up with a jutsu like Edo Tensei put his morality into question before. And his suspicion against the Uchiha was already known. Still, I didn't think he was this cold-hearted of a bastard. To be so openly prejudiced against the Uchiha. Not even a little bothered to hear the clan had been massacred. Though he's still a good guy, he's definitely a bit of an a**hole, which he seems to be perfectly aware of.

I still read it as pragmatism. Tobirama was well aware that the Uchiha were a ticking time bomb (this chapter fully confirmed that the Uchiha were always a lost cause), so he attempted to muzzle the rabid clan and still make them useful to Konoha.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

If there's true peace among the villages--not just the uneasy truce between wars like before--then I think Naruto could become Hokage even with the Kyuubi.

I doubt it would be possible for "true peace" to exist so soon after the world had been living in a state of cold and hot war for 60+ years (even if they had all somehow been united by a common cause). Rather, old hostilities would need to be slowly resolved, and having such a powerful figure feature so prominently in one country would undoubtedly throw off the balance of peace.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

But, I do imagine Naruto will lose the Kyuubi and Bee the Hachibi. Now that the bijuu have been shown to have human-like feelings and attachments, it seems kind of unfair to have them sealed as prisoners, even if they may genuinely care about their hosts. I wouldn't be surprised if they merge back with the juubi and "purify" it, then leave so that its power can't be used for destruction again.

The Bijuu reflect the world they live in. If war exists, then they become mindless hate filled monsters. But, if peace can be attained, then they could become the fun little puppies we saw in the Kyuubi's flashback.

That being said, I'm still expecting Naruto to become the Jinchuuriki for the re-emerged Jyuubi.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by james0246

I still read it as pragmatism. Tobirama was well aware that the Uchiha were a ticking time bomb (this chapter fully confirmed that the Uchiha were always a lost cause), so he attempted to muzzle the rabid clan and still make them useful to Konoha.

Yes, he definitely had good reason to want to keep the Uchiha in check. He only did what he thought necessary. But it's clear that he also had no compassion for the Uchiha and viewed them with contempt. He even says he cares for nothing outside the greater good of the village. His lack of empathy is what makes him a jerk, not so much his actions.

I doubt it would be possible for "true peace" to exist so soon after the world had been living in a state of cold and hot war for 60+ years (even if they had all somehow been united by a common cause). Rather, old hostilities would need to be slowly resolved, and having such a powerful figure feature so prominently in one country would undoubtedly throw off the balance of peace.

Well, I guess we can really never know how things would work out unless Kishi decides to an epilogue some years into the future. But the stage is already set for lasting peace.

- The alliances are already fighting to protect the jinchuuriki, furthermore Naruto's already giving the Kyuubi's power to everyone to fight with, showing the Kyuubi's power can actually be power shared for the good of everyone, even though one person holds the source.

- Gaara is already Naruto's biggest supporter, kazekage and a former jinchuuriki. Bee, isn't a kage, but very influential in the Cloud and also has a bond with Naruto. The Mizukage is eager for peace and acceptance of the other villages to throw off the stigma of the "Bloody Mist". The Tuschikage would probably be the most reluctant, but even he seems to have changed his outlook during the war.

- All the villages have suffered major casualties and devastation during the war. More than ever, they'll need to rely on others for support and aid to rebuild.

And Naruto has become an icon. Rather than fearing him, I think they'd probably admire his strength. Unlike past Hokage, Naruto has never built infamy in other villages fighting for Konoha in wars (the sneak attack by the Sound and Sand notwithstanding). So personal bitterness from past conflicts won't be an issue. He is in a much better position to become a leader during a time of peace.

That being said, I'm still expecting Naruto to become the Jinchuuriki for the re-emerged Jyuubi.

Yeah... I could also see Naruto becoming the Jyuubi host and next Rikudo Sennin. In which case, I'd think he wouldn't be part of any village.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james0246

I still read it as pragmatism. Tobirama was well aware that the Uchiha were a ticking time bomb (this chapter fully confirmed that the Uchiha were always a lost cause), so he attempted to muzzle the rabid clan and still make them useful to Konoha.

If anything this chapter confirmed just the opposite. You should know by now that pragmatism is another word for being wrong in this story. The people who always end up right are the (ridiculously overpowered) friendly idealists like Naruto and Hashirama, they are the ones who manage to change things and make them better. Tobirama wasn't right, he merely persevered into making the same errors of the past which paved the way for the same old horrors in the future.

Imagine this world without Hashirama because for all his talk about the greater good of the village Tobirama wouldn't have been able to create it in the first place. He'd never have asked a truce with the Uchiha and in the off chance that it somehow happened the Uchiha would never have chosen him as their leader over their own. This so called rabid clan accepted peace with their mortal enemy, chose the greatest of them as leader and it took then 5 generations of Tobirama's policy + the Kyubi attack and the distrust and segregation that followed for years to make them revolt and plan a coup.
Do you really think that had Hashirama lived the same would have happened? Because it really doesn't seem to me that's what the author is going for. Peace is impossible with [insert any clan/village/people] is what Madara's gunning for but it's not the moral of the story.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hunter

If anything this chapter confirmed just the opposite. You should know by now that pragmatism is another word for being wrong in this story. The people who always end up right are the (ridiculously overpowered) friendly idealists like Naruto and Hashirama, they are the ones who manage to change things and make them better. Tobirama wasn't right, he merely persevered into making the same errors of the past which paved the way for the same old horrors in the future.

I don't disagree with anything you've written. But, I still see Tobirama as being practicle not an asshole (which was Sabaku's comment). Tobirama was clearly wrong in his approach, Kishimoto has spent 600 chapters arguing that point, but that doesn't make him an asshole, just lacking in empathy.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

And Itachi also left. .

For the peace of the nations alliance, someone so singularly powerful could not exist or claim residence within one country. That would just promote fear which would lead to war. Hashirama understood this when he split up the Bijuu.

itachi didnt leave because he was too powerful. he left because he was ordered to after murdering his clan. if itachi had stayed in konoha it would have caused the same amount of fear in other nations as would any kage-level ninja living in any village.

Th only way I could see Naruto staying in Konoha to become the next Hokage is if he loses the Kyuubi (as it is, I fully expect Sasuke to lose his eyes by the end of the series, or have them simply evolve to the Rinnegan, thus destroying the instability that is the Sharingan).

i am pretty sure naruto will eventually lose the kyuubi by some means or another. reason being that kurama now has a personality and has shown compassion and reasoning ability. for the same reason as the hokages not being 'allowed' to stay in eternal torture, kurama won't stay a prisoner either. even if the worst happens and he is stolen by madara, obito or sasuke and/or forced into a full juubi, he will still regain his individuality and either sacrifice himself or live peacefully with the other bijou on some mystical animal farm

Originally Posted by james0246

I don't disagree with anything you've written. But, I still see Tobirama as being practicle not an asshole (which was Sabaku's comment). Tobirama was clearly wrong in his approach, Kishimoto has spent 600 chapters arguing that point, but that doesn't make him an asshole, just lacking in empathy.

i see him as an asshole. he's clearly racist. he couldn't care less that the uchiha are all but gone. he understands that he segregated them and doesn't care. he speaks of others as less than himself, the senju and the village. thats an asshole in my book. i'll grant him not being at danzo's level yet, but i still dont like him

[james0246]

Maybe we are arguing semantics, but an asshole to me is someone that takes pleasure in the pain of others (schadenfreude is an extreme version). Tobirama is definitely prejudicial, maybe even hateful (debatable) of the Uchiha, but overall I didn't read any joy in Tobirama's treatment of the Uchiha nor their demise. (he was very matter the fact about his fear of the Uchiha's eventual decline, so much so that I doubt he realizes that he created a self fullfilling prophecy ). He's more of a douche than an asshole.

[Dengar]

A douche and an asshole are the same thing. I think you're confusing "asshole" with "bad person".

[El_Negro]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

i see him as an asshole. he's clearly racist. he couldn't care less that the uchiha are all but gone. he understands that he segregated them and doesn't care. he speaks of others as less than himself, the senju and the village. thats an asshole in my book. i'll grant him not being at danzo's level yet, but i still dont like him

Dude you'd be surprised as to the number of people on other forums who actually love/like or agree with Tobirama's ideals/opinions on the Uchiha and actually see it as fact and use that as the main reason to justify the massacre/genocide of the clan.

But I take it that almost everyone is tired of the Uchiha clan history/heritage and just pretty much become haters so anything negative against the clan is viewed as good

what can ya do?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Dengar

A douche and an asshole are the same thing. I think you're confusing "asshole" with "bad person".

Then ignore the douche line (there is no point in arguing vernacular). Actually, I think Tobirama is a bad person (this is what Hunter was getting at, andit is not something I disagree with). You can't be as callous and unsympathetic as Tobirama is without being a "bad person" (especially in this series where idealism is held in such high regard). I just don't think he is an "asshole".

Now that this convo has reached it's South Parkian level of inanity, I'm going to bow out.

[El_Negro]

Originally Posted by Hunter

If anything this chapter confirmed just the opposite. You should know by now that pragmatism is another word for being wrong in this story. The people who always end up right are the (ridiculously overpowered) friendly idealists like Naruto and Hashirama, they are the ones who manage to change things and make them better. Tobirama wasn't right, he merely persevered into making the same errors of the past which paved the way for the same old horrors in the future.

Imagine this world without Hashirama because for all his talk about the greater good of the village Tobirama wouldn't have been able to create it in the first place. He'd never have asked a truce with the Uchiha and in the off chance that it somehow happened the Uchiha would never have chosen him as their leader over their own. This so called rabid clan accepted peace with their mortal enemy, chose the greatest of them as leader and it took then 5 generations of Tobirama's policy + the Kyubi attack and the distrust and segregation that followed for years to make them revolt and plan a coup.
Do you really think that had Hashirama lived the same would have happened? Because it really doesn't seem to me that's what the author is going for. Peace is impossible with [insert any clan/village/people] is what Madara's gunning for but it's not the moral of the story.

quoted for truth

[Artimus_Prime]

tobirama sounds a bit envious of the uchiha power imo...i kinda get that frieza to the saiyans vibe...just me. could be wrong...

anyways, im itching to know what the revelation means to the story. from the sage all the way to the present. was the eldest son really intended to be the successor but was usurped? did the eldest son choose might as the way to govern cuz he was well aware of the consequences of emotion? will that damn rabbit ever get that bowl of trix??

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james0246

Actually, I think Tobirama is a bad person (this is what Hunter was getting at, andit is not something I disagree with). You can't be as callous and unsympathetic as Tobirama is without being a "bad person" (especially in this series where idealism is held in such high regard). I just don't think he is an "asshole".

Amusingly enough that's not what I was disagreeing with your first assessment, I don't believe the author meant us to think Tobirama is a fundamentally bad person (no matter how cold and callous he is which make him whatever you want to call him) or he wouldn't have made him sacrifice his life to save his subordinates (including an Uchiha).
Tobirama like many old school shinobi in the story is simply the product of his time and he couldn't rise above it like his brother did. We've seen many old ninja like that, generally until Naruto turns on his Colgate power and change them into Carebears (although considering Tobirama appears to be immune to his brother's maybe he's a hard-case).

So the part I think you were wrong is more concerning the fact that the Uchiha were a lost cause. Hashirama proved it wasn't the case and Tobirama worst sin was to give up on this ideal which as Naruto painfully repeats all the time is really something you shouldn't do.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Amusingly enough that's not what I was disagreeing with your first assessment, I don't believe the author meant us to think Tobirama is a fundamentally bad person (no matter how cold and callous he is which make him whatever you want to call him) or he wouldn't have made him sacrifice his life to save his subordinates (including an Uchiha).

I think you are overstating the sacrifice. You can still be a "bad person" but sacrifice yourself for family and friends (and country). Nagato is a bad person, but he still sacrificed himself in the end for what he believed to be a higher cause. Itachi is a bad person, but he still sacrificed himself for his brother. If you commit extreme acts of cruelty (edit: or just extreme acts in general) you are generally a bad person, and Tobirama committed such acts (even if he felt it was due to the fact that the Uchiha are biologically driven to insanity whenever they get any power).

Tobirama sacrificed himself for the simple reason that it was more practical for his team to survive and lead Konoha than it was for him to survive but the future generation die. He didn't sacrifice himself out of the kindness of his heart, nor do I think he was being altruistic in any respect. He sacrificed himself because logically he was the only one there that could do what needed to be done while also helping his village. (Shikimaru did something similar during the Sound/Sand invasion.)

Originally Posted by Hunter

So the part I think you were wrong is more concerning the fact that the Uchiha were a lost cause. Hashirama proved it wasn't the case and Tobirama worst sin was to give up on this ideal which as Naruto painfully repeats all the time is really something you shouldn't do.

As for the Uchiha being a lost cause. Well, they definitely seem to be cursed (if Tobirama's assessment is correct). Any power immediately goes to their head (due to the extreme emotions needed to access such power (there's also the whole curse of hatred thing derived from the Sage choosing the younger son over the elder)), and the continued increase in power drives them mad (Itachi, Obito, Madara, Sasuke, all are arguably less than sane to down right insane, the only Uchiha with extreme power that seems to have had any sanity seems to be Shisui, and he killed himself (presumably)). If Tobirama is correct in his assessment, then they were always going to be a ticking time bomb, he simply, and stupidly, helped speed up their destruction.

Honestly, I do not know if Hashirama appealed to their humanity or he simply made them complacent, whatever the case it is hard to see how simply treating the Uchiha with kindness helped to stave off the monster that presumably lives inside of them. Hopefully Hashirama will be able to discuss this problem next chapter and give us some further insight into why he felt the Uchiha could be saved (whereas Tobirama felt they were doomed since birth).

[gibits]

Originally Posted by El_Negro

Dude you'd be surprised as to the number of people on other forums who actually love/like or agree with Tobirama's ideals/opinions on the Uchiha and actually see it as fact and use that as the main reason to justify the massacre/genocide of the clan.

But I take it that almost everyone is tired of the Uchiha clan history/heritage and just pretty much become haters so anything negative against the clan is viewed as good

what can ya do?

I gues you could call me one of those Uchiha "haters". Tobirama had good cause to not trust the Uchiha, after what Madara did. But yet he placed them in a position of power He made them into the military police, basically put them in charge of the safety of the village. I know Kishimoto is tryin to make it out like they were "segregated" but segregation in the USA involved blacks being powerless, not heading the police force.
The Uchiha still rationalizing that they are somehow the victims is just laughable. Wanting to revolt just because they didn't get good real estate IS a good reason to be put down by Itachi.
Tobirama gave them a chance to regain the village's trust and they blew it. So what if they were suspected for the 9 tails' attack? An Uchiha WAS responsible for it. They should have just swallowed their pride and slowly regain the village's trust instead of plotting a revolt and confirming Tobirama's sterotypes of them.
After reading this chapter I'm glad Itachi did what he did. The clan was hopeless from the start.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james0246

You can still be a "bad person" but sacrifice yourself for family and friends (and country). Nagato is a bad person,

By this definition of bad person 99.9999% of humans are bad. I think none of these characters should be called bad, they were put in extreme conditions and they failed in some matters, but most humans would fail just like they did.