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Old 2013-02-10, 01:55   Link #5881
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Sorry but unless you actually have something more substantial to back up your claims, I'm just going to go ahead and think it's fanwanking...
The basis is what the show tells us: That Kira would not share the technology.

Where is your basis for saying that Kira would share once it's peacetime?
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Because they didn't think any retaliation would happen. They did it completely without warning. Orb is not in the same situation. It wouldn't be able to repeat that action again, hence why EA didn't even try.
Uh, what? In both SEED and Destiny, the EA has launched at least 4 nuclear attacks. Clearly the EA is not worried about the consequence.
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In space? When?

When he decided to use Requiem and assumed he would be able to destroy ZAFT in one surprise shot?
The EA attacked after ZAFT used GENESIS for the first time, destroying a significant portion of the attacking fleet. Then ZAFT fired GENESIS a second time at the lunar base, and the EA attacked again.
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Erm..what? So it was worth invading Orb to prevent a resistance from forming if they invaded Orb? That doesn't make any sense...
That's what you said:
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
They had to go on and take control to prevent Kusanagi returning and/or prevent a resistance from forming.
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Yes.

Like I said, it would be a consolation prize. If you don't understand what that means i suggest looking it up now before i go completely insane...
The point is, they still attacked.
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Revelant

Irrelevant.

I don't know how many times I'll have to say this..drop the Destroy argument. It has no relevance. The point at the very start has been about Orb's perception of the EA before the treaty.
I'll stop mentioning it when you acknowledge that the EA is willing and able to attack anybody that doesn't obey them.
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And no, the SEED invasion does not prove to Orb that they can't later deter EA nor does it prove to Orb that EA attacks just for being neutral.
It proves to Orb that being neutral doesn't prevent them from being a target.
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Episode 25
You're kidding me, right? That was ONE ship commanded by Athrun and they didn't have any order to attack Orb.
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They never once thought ZAFT would be fooled. It was a horrifically obvious lie that even they knew it would be. They very clearly did it to try and deter them.
Uh, if they didn't think they could fool ZAFT, they would've just officially claimed that Orb has given sanctuary to Djibril.

But they knew they couldn't stop ZAFT from attacking if they confirmed Djibril's presence in Orb, so they tried to lie.
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I talked to monster before that I didn't expect Orb to have enough power to close the gap against EA and that there were far more factors involved in deterrence than just that. I don't think Orb can stand up to EA with conventional warfare power either.
Then why is it so hard for you to accept that Orb would want to be in a more advantageous position rather than having to stand alone again?
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Indeed but if you pay attention in Episode 25, you'' recall a sceen between Athrun and his friends, how they were frustrated with Orb's obvious lie and how Athrun specifically shot down the idea of escalating things with Orb. If Orb were no problem then there'd be no issue with ZAFT declaring war on them for blatantly supporting the enemy.
Yes, Athrun, did that. If Yzak were in command, they would've called Orb out on their lie.
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But as it stands, for a supposedly powerless nation they were pretty damn brave to take a hardline stance against a skirmish between two superpowers that could both crush Orb if they really wanted to.
Correction: Uzumi was brave enough to do that. In case you have forgotten, Uzumi AND his supporters in the government are gone.
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Old 2013-02-10, 07:41   Link #5882
I Fail at Life
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amaterasu
It's like if the budget from the previous episodes was so low they couldn't revise every Freedom shot to show it damaged. I think they overdid by giving such a dramatic ending to Freedom vs Impulse. They could have just damaged the mobile suit a lot without sword piercing the body and simply recover its parts and upgrade them to get Strike Freedom. But yeah, that's just an opinion.
What? It's simply really. Out of Neo's Windam, Chaos, Gaia, Abyss, Impulse and Saviour; only Impulse (Shinn) and Saviour (Athrun) should be the only ones to really challenge Kira (maybe Neo).
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Old 2013-02-10, 08:13   Link #5883
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Old 2013-02-10, 08:50   Link #5884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amaterasu4 View Post
It's like if the budget from the previous episodes was so low they couldn't revise every Freedom shot to show it damaged. I think they overdid by giving such a dramatic ending to Freedom vs Impulse. They could have just damaged the mobile suit a lot without sword piercing the body and simply recover its parts and upgrade them to get Strike Freedom. But yeah, that's just an opinion.
Either that or they nerf Kira to ground to let him lose ( while giving unlimited life GameShark work to Shin).

Also Haak,
In seed after EA found out that ZAFT was using nuclear technology in war thanks Flay( and Raul ):
1- EA nuke PLANTs
2- ZAFT fire GENESIS at their fleet
3- ZAFT fire it again at moon base
4- EA use Nuke again at them
5- EA still trying to nuke PLANTs like they don't really care if GENESIS will be fire for third time....
6- Patrick Zala try to use it for third time before get killed by one of his officers since his target this time will kill half of life on Earth...


After Second shot if not first they really should change their target from PLANTs to GENESIS....

Edit: it's funny how Blue cosmos use that as excuse to launch another nuclear technology attack while other EA leaders use that technology to help Earth power resource problem since after ZAFT attack most of earth resource been destroyed...
(Since in SEED most if not all countries use nuclear technology as energy resource but they no longer can use it thanks to N-Jammer which lead to mass starvation and energy crisis which lead to more "slow" death than Bloody Valentine Incident .)

Last edited by Gundamx; 2013-02-10 at 09:01.
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Old 2013-02-10, 09:06   Link #5885
Znozzy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
What friends did he have at Orb? How did you figure Lacus was in Orb? And I thought Athrun had been living in Heliopolis which he already managed to blow up.
What? He had Kira at Orb in Seed, he knew Orb was neutral, He knew Cagalli was there too, he didn't want to bring a war to a neutral nation, not to mention attacking Orb with one submarine and four mobile suits is retarded, he knew they made Mobile Suits, but he didn't know Orb's full fighting power at that time. Being smart doesnt mean you fear a country, attacking an entire country with 4 mobile suits would be retarded

in Destiny he had the entire orphanage led by Marco(if that's the priests name), Kira's family, and not to mention the AA's crew and his friends, including Lacus

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When I said they took a hardline stance, I meant with ZAFT and EA when they were fighting in Episode 25. For a small nation they sure had a lot of guts telling ZAFT to take a hike.
Of course they did, why wouldnt they? the battle was heading towards their waters. It was one submarine and the four GAT-X's, the Arch Angel and the Strike/Graspers against Orb's Naval fleet, not the entire collective Zaft Earth force.


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I've already been through this in the other debate with monster. If you take issue with anything I said and think it's "wild speculation" then show me how. I don't really want to bring up everything again since as you plainly see, I already have a lot on my plate right now but to summarise, the reason I thought Orb's alliance with the EA was contrived, isn't because it's illogical per se but because it's out of character.
But it's not out of character, in Destiny, clearly, Orb is following the Seirans ideals, since they somehow managed to seize power behind Cagalli's back, with Cagalli being kidnapped by Kira, noone is there to carry on Uzumi's ideals either.

You seem to be mistaking Orb's ideals with Uzumi's ideals

Uzumi in power = The Orb we saw in Seed
Seiran in power = The Orb we saw in Destiny

The family in power seems to call the shots, in Seed it was the Attha's, in Destiny it's the Seirans.

the Seiran's choose to ally with the EA. that's it. Of course it's a 180 from Seed when the Attha's had the power.

I know how stupid it is, but that's what the show told us, and that's all we have to go on, trying to argue if it is out of character or not is irrelevant, since the Orb we saw in Seed isnt following the same ideals as the Orb we saw in Destiny.
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Old 2013-02-10, 09:47   Link #5886
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Because the original basis isn't there anymore and after what Orb has been through, they might really need it.
The original basis is that NJC allows nuclear weapons. That is always there.

The fact of the matter is, we still never saw Orb using nuclear weapons. Even Akatsuki is not nuclear powered.

So, no, you have no basis at all to say that Kira/Lacus would share the NJC technology.
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The first time, EA attacked Junius Seven and didn't think ZAFT could respond with N-Jammer (Bloody Valentine Incident)
The second time EA attacked they didn't realise ZAFT could respond with GENESIS (Battle of Boaz and Second Battle of Jachin Due)
The third time EA attacked ZAFT they still didn't think ZAFT could respond with the Neutron Stampeder.
The EA attacked ZAFT after each of the 2 GENESIS shots in SEED.
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This doesn't suggest the actions of someone who doesn't care about the consequences. The only thing it suggests is that LOGOS is full of retards.
Well, regardless of what you may think of their intelligence, these are the kind of people who are in charge of the EA.
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I don't know where you're getting this. From what I remember, the EA withdrew their fight in space after the failed Nuclear attack and the next time we heard of anything, Yzak or someone else was telling Ahrun that they EA and ZAFT were basically having a staring contest ever since.
SEED phases 48-49 (using the original episode numbers).
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Yes, that it what i said. But nowhere did I say they thought the entire invasion was worth it in the end. The original decision to invade can't be worth it when the main thing you end up accomplishing is preventing a problem caused by the invasion itself. That makes no sense.
When you don't think something is worth it, you cut your losses, you don't spend more effort on something that's not worth it, especially when you're still in the middle of fighting a war.
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the costs were already accrued
And occupying Orb means additional cost of troops stationed there.
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I don't see any reason why i should respond to it after all.
Because it tells you what kind of people Orb is dealing with and why joining the Alliance is not some unreasonable decision that Orb made.
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And? I don't think Orb was ever under any illusion that it would in the first place, hence why they put so much focus into developing their military. That's not the issue at all.
Of course it is, because while they may have known that they are weaker, after their defeat, they definitely know for sure.

And without leaders like Uzumi, it's no wonder why they would try a different solution.
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Like I said, Athrun specifically shot down the argument to escalate things.
Yes, Athrun, but Athrun doesn't speak for all of ZAFT.
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But Yzak wasn't in command and Orb trusted that ZAFT didn't have idiots in command. Even Yzak acknowledged it wouldn't have been a good idea. In any case Orb doesn't know about Yzak's imbecile remarks so they're free to think they successfully deterred ZAFT.
Again, it's only 1 ship.
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It was a PR stunt dude.

When Yuna was confronted with this by one of his men, he was asked what he expected since everyone knew it was an obvious lie. Yuna responded by drawing parallel to the time when they lied about Archangel in Episode 25 of SEED as another PR stunt.
Exactly. They used a lie both times because they couldn't stand on their own power. Orb has no actual means to deter an enemy if that enemy wants to attack.
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Okay, but the original point was that Orb had already deterred ZAFT once. If it was successful then the fact that Uzumi is gone doesn't necessarily mean there has to be a difference.[/SPOILER]
Except there is a difference: ZAFT did attack them in Destiny.

And you know why? Because this time ZAFT had proof of Orb's lie and Orb is no longer facing just 1 ship. When all is said and done, Orb once again found out that they had nothing substantial to deter an attack.
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Old 2013-02-10, 10:17   Link #5887
Gundamx
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About Orb power, they are strong.
They can easily defeat 2, 3 nations but the enemy is just too strong...

EA = Earth alliance = USA + Russia + many countries from EU + Arab countries + Africa + Asia

PLANTs = advance technology and human race(every single person can be score A- rank or higher) + first one to build MS.
Don't to mention that many if not all Coordinator think of themselves as PLANTs citizen even if they didn't born there and that why Orb Coordinators didn't even think twice to give all Orb secret data to ZAFT to build gundam...
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Old 2013-02-10, 11:49   Link #5888
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There's also the fact that AA and Strike, who were only really targets to the Cruset team because of a personal grudge and Zaft command didn't really care much about hunting them down, and Djibril who was wanted by the entire world and the Zaft chairman was ordering his capture where too totally different valued targets.
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Old 2013-02-10, 16:33   Link #5889
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Old 2013-02-10, 17:22   Link #5890
Znozzy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post

Oh I see, you're talking about Kira. Whilst I do agree with that interpretation the point still remains that the way Athrun shot down Yzak's idea of escalation clearly suggested he also think it would be a bad idea if the rest of ZAFT would've been involved. And I'm not saying the Athrun had to attack with only his ship...
Why would they risk open war with a neutral country over one ship and one mobile suit? seriously, just drop it, Athrun isnt stupid either, Neither is Zaft, they wouldnt go to war with Orb just because it took the AA in.

Also, Irrelevant, since they never went to war with orb, it's once again you speculating without any fact to back it up except your own imagination

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Yeah but that was in Destiny. I'm talking about the incident in SEED.
Sorry, you got me confused there a bit.


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It doesn't have to be the entire collect ZAFT force. Going against one could have very easily led to them fighting all them later on. Orb is going to have to take that into account as well.
Irrelevant, it never happened, thats purely speculation aswell.


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I honestly don't think the ideals are interchangeable depending on who's in power. The way it was presented in SEED, it clearly seemed to me like Uzumi's ideals, was Orb's Ideals.

Also bear in mind that Cagalli was still the Chief Representative in Destiny. The Seirans weren't in power.
But they are, thats what happened in the show. Cagalli clearly wasnt in power, if anything she was a official puppet of the Seirans, they ran the military, they ran the politics, they ran Orb when she came back from her Minerva trip.

You not accepting the fact that the Seirans ran orb is your own problem, but its what happened in the show. We arent told when or how the Seirans claimed the power, it just happened, and thats what we have to accept.

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Athrun was high in the command chain so please don't treat his views as if it's just another opinion. It's obviously going to be a lot more credible than just an average view on the situation. Athrun specifically said he didn't want it to escalate and involve the entire ZAFT in this. If ZAFT could crush Orb easily then this wouldn't be an issue, but the fact that Athrun didn't want it to happen just that it simply wouldn't be worth it for ZAFT. And the way the story placed Athrun as the level headed one clearly suggests this was storyline exposition.
Athrun was not high in the command chain, Rau was, Athrun was put in charge of his squad since he had other things to attend to

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Although they did clearly believe ZAFT could be deterred.
No, Yuna did, why do you think he got punched in the face and jumped on by several people in the command center once Cagalli took charge?
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Old 2013-02-11, 00:00   Link #5891
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
The fact that Orb not having nuclear weapons is exactly what I'm calling BS on...
Sorry, but unless you have evidence to the contrary, Orb not having nuclear weapons is not BS.
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Yeah, after Genesis had been fired. At that point it's a little too late and the threat of MAD no longer applies.
Except the EA started it with nuclear weapons. First with Junius 7, then with Boaz.
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And the point still stands that MAD is still a threat to them.
If it did, they're ignoring it when they're willing to use nuclear weapons.
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I'm talking about SEED Destiny. After the failed attack, the battle in space was completely stalled.
This is what you said:
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
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We've gone beyond that in SEED.
We haven't really. There is nothing to suggest EA is willing to fire nuclear weapons at someone who can fire them back.

In fact they specifically made a point to show that the conflict between EA and ZAFT was brought to a complete stand still after ZAFT used GENESIS.
ZAFT used GENESIS in SEED. Neo-GENESIS didn't appear until near the end of Destiny.

And even in Destiny, the "conflict between EA and ZAFT" was NOT "brought to a complete stand still" because the war continued until no earlier than the fall of LOGOS.
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But there's not going to be more losses. Like I said, there was no resistance in Orb left after the Mass Driver was destroyed and Kusanagi escaped. They didn't spend any more effort except in maintaining occupied territory which they had to do to prevent resistance from forming. That doesn't mean they think the entire invasion is worth it if they now have to spend additional resources dealing with a problem caused by the invasion itself.
The solution is simple: Just leave.

Either they think it's worth it to occupy Orb or they don't. It's that simple.
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And how is this relevant to whether or not Orb thinks they can deter EA before the treaty?
Since Orb knows from SEED what kind of people are running the EA, they had no reason to believe that the EA would respond in a reasonable manner.
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Especially if the evidence given happens after the treaty?
Again, the evidence is given for you, not for Orb.
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The point we're discussing is whether the EA invasion proves Orb can't deter EA later on. Just because EA is willing to attack a neutral nation does not mean that a neutral nation can't deter EA.
But we're not talking about any neutral nation, we're talking about the very nation that was indeed attacked.
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Athrun was high in the command chain so please don't treat his views as if it's just another opinion.
No, he wasn't. He was put in charge of 1 squad. That's it.
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It was one ship. After the incident, Orb was clearly risking an entire fleet descending upon them.
It doesn't change the fact that it's still 1 ship.
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Eaxctly what? I just said it was a PR stunt and that the response Yuna gave very clearly indicates it was just a PR stunt and he knew ZAFT wouldn't believe them just like Orb knew ZAFT wouldn't believe them when they lied about Archangel in SEED. How did you figure that proves your point?
If Orb has something to deter ZAFT, they wouldn't need to make a PR stunt.
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Although they did clearly believe ZAFT could be deterred.
No, they (or at least Seiran) believed that ZAFT could be fooled. They were wrong, and ZAFT attacked.
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Old 2013-02-11, 11:23   Link #5892
Znozzy
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Seriously, im starting to belive that Yuna seiran has a twin named Yuuna seiran.

Episode 12, he acts smart. Episode 26? he acts smart by saying that he cant acknowledge Cagalli because Orb would be destroyed by the EA if he did.

Then in episode 42? he goes full retard

Clearly, the real Yuna was assasinated and replaced by his whimpy younger brother, Yuuna Seiran. Yuna was 2cool4orb
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Old 2013-02-11, 17:04   Link #5893
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Old 2013-02-11, 17:51   Link #5894
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As far as the whole nuclear weapons and ORB's access to them goes, there's very little chance they could get the data from the Archangel. The NJC is pretty much under the control of Kira, who was quite adamant in making sure that NO ONE got it from him. As far as other avenues of acquisition goes, NJCs were banned for the use of mobile suits and presumably nothing else. The technology was distributed around Earth to deal with the power crisis after the treaty, IIRC, so they could use their nuclear power plants once more. So if ORB uses nuclear reactors then they'll probably have acquired the technology for them already.
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Old 2013-02-11, 23:51   Link #5895
Znozzy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Exactly: The cons heavily outweighed the pros which is the main reason why I think Orb can deter EA as well.
Let's see now, in Seed, the EA got whipped, lost their mass driver(s) and invaded orb because of the following:
1. They had facilities
2. They had a Mass driver
That's why, since the EA needed a mass driver to get to space, that was the effort it was worth, thats why we don't see anything from Orb after the Mass driver is blown up, the maincrew moved to space with Azrael's forces on the ground. (for now)

Where did they ever say " SHIET, ORB IS SO POWERFUL THEY COULD POSSIBLY DETER OUR ARMADA " they never did, and Orb surely did fall, two days after the battle ensued with lots of losses aswell, Orb took its armed forces and ran off to space, with the only warship they had, pretty desperate for a country that could deter them, no?

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And besides, they already blew up Heliopolis and they didn't seem to regret that.
Yeah, they did, Athrun sure did regret it aswell

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My point was that Orb successfully deterred ZAFT from going to war with Orb is irrelevant because ZAFT never went to war with Orb?
it's irrelevant because Zaft never planned on attacking orb at all, Orb deterred a small conflict on their waters, which every neutral country should do, armed conflicts happen alot in real life too, do you see every country go to war every time it happens? no, you don't, its a waste of efforts, resources and usually money, and not to mention soldiers

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I said Athrun shot down any escalation of war with Orb after the Archangel incident in SEED because he knew it would be problematic for ZAFT. You argued the only reason he did it was because he had friends at Orb but then used examples of of his friends being in Orb at Destiny which is way after the event I'm talking about.
Problematic for Zaft? Zaft could curbstomp Orb if they felt like it.

Once again, let me try and explain this in a simple manner so you actually understand what i'm trying to say, since you seem to have a hard time getting the point.

Zaft was chasing one ship and one mobile suit.
the AA was one ship and one mobile suit
Orb's naval fleet came to defend its own waters from an outside attack and to prevent the two parties from having an armed conflict on their waters.

Athrun understood that, so he pulled his forces back because a threeway fight with those small numbers would be suicide.
Athrun is a decent commander and decides to go with Stealth over brute force and infiltrates Orb because:

1. Waging war against a country, regardless how small or big it is for ONE SHIP and ONE MOBILE SUIT is not something you do when you are already fighting a close to planet-scale war
2. It is called making a good choice to not run in guns blazing, what Yzak Joule thinks is irrelevant, he was immature and constantly hung up on revenge throughout most of Seed after he was scarred by Kira in the strike.
3. If the Zaft high council, which i highly doubt since they are engineer'd super-humans agreed to attack Orb because they had ONE SHIP and ONE MOBILE SUIT there, they might aswell start start nuking themselfs because there would be no plot in the show at all anymore.

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It's not speculation, it's just common sense. If Orb is going to be hard-line with soldiers of a superpower, then it stands to reason that could very easily lead to problematic relations with said superpower later down the line. The reason it never happened is because, like I said, Orb is not just some small nation that ZAFT could easily crush if it wanted to. It has the ability to become a problematic nation when pushed (Something both EA and ZAFT found to be true)
Common sense doesnt apply to a show where main characters proportions are inhuman, Giant robots are the norm, engineer'd super humans are also the norm living in giant blue hourglasses in space. Irrelevant. the Ea could've won over Zaft if they just nuked them off the bat, but they didnt.

Orb is a peaceful nation, you leave it alone, they leave everyone alone, poke it and they will defend themselfs, but they will not attack anyone else.

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I'm not denying Seirans were practically running Orb
Good, moving on.

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but the fact of the matter, but there is nothing to suggest the Seirans were following their own family ideals and those three ideals which were repeated ad verbitam in SEED was exclusive to Uzumi. On the contrary, the way those ideals were presented in SEED very much seemed like they were integral to Orb as a nation. The show never explicitly mentioned the five noble families having their own motto.
Overanalyzing, clearly Uzumi's leadership and the Seiran's differ on some major points which we see in Destiny. accept what Destiny showed us.

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Maybe not that high in the command chain but reasonably so. My point still stands.
No, it obviously doesnt since your entire point about him being high in the command fell. Don't be a stubborn loser.


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Not just Yuna, but his dad too. It was another Seiran thing (and by your logic that must mean they were running Orb). And it being a Seiran thing is even more egregious since they were the ones who decided Orb couldn't deter EA. But they still thought they could deter ZAFT.
Seriously, stop making things up, Orb never thought they could deter the full Zaft force that came at them, Yuna somehow though he could pull the same PR thing Usumi pulled with the AA. If they thought they could deter them, wouldn't they've assembled their army as soon as Zaft came?
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Old 2013-02-12, 02:48   Link #5896
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I've already made the point that Orb, after everything they had been through would be pursuing nuclear weapons extremely vigorously and would not ignore a source for NJC right under their noses. They don't even have to have the God damn technology. They could simply leak formal pacts made with Archangel who everybody knows has the technology and people will make the assumption that Orb has the technology too.
Archangel doesn't have the technology, Kira/Lacus does. And there's no indication that they would share it.
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Yes, when EA didn't realise ZAFT could respond back, like I just said.
That maybe true for Junius 7, but not for subsequent attacks. The EA knows that ZAFT has the technology to make nuclear weapons since ZAFT invented the NJC.
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Sorry, I mean ZAFT's Neutron Stampeder.
Alright, but that still didn't bring the conflict to a stand still. It only prevented the EA from trying to attack ZAFT with nuclear weapons.
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Only on Earth and it was very clear that neither of them had any stomach to contemplate the use of nuclear weapons again or anything similar until they were absolutely sure that the other side could not respond. That very clearly suggests they were concerned with the consequences and do still consider MAD.
Actually, with the Neutron Stampeder, the EA lost the capability of effectively using nuclear weapons against ZAFT. So MAD wasn't even a factor.

In fact, the fact that EA even used nuclear weapons in the first place showed that MAD was never a factor.
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You're talking about two different things entirely.

Is the occupying of Orb worth it after the invasion has taken place and there is no resistance left? Yes.

Does that mean the invasion itself was ultimately worth it in the end? No

You're confusing the two.
At the end of the day, that distinction is irrelevant to Orb because Orb was still attacked.

Orb now knows that if the EA ever wants something from Orb, the EA is willing to get it by force.
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From SEED? You were talking about the Destroys, remember?
You're confusing the two.

Orb knows the EA from SEED.

The Destroys are merely examples of what the EA are capable and willing to do.

Try not to mix the two.
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The point is about Orb's character, which it has been from the start. We are discussing whether Orb has reason to believe it can deter EA. Anything else is irrelevant.
And the Orb invasion is a perfectly legitimate reason for Orb to believe they're not capable of deterring the EA.
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Which proves that neutrality isn't the only factor. But if you remember, you're point was "It proves to Orb that being neutral doesn't prevent them from being a target."

You were making it sound as if as long as Orb remained neutral, then they would be attacked, which i disagreed with.
And you've also admitted that Orb was not strong enough to defend itself against the EA.

So without the power to defeat the EA, and if being neutral wasn't enough to keep the EA, then what will actually deter the EA from attacking Orb anytime it wants something from Orb?
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As for the original point, the fact that we are talking about the very nation that was attacked does not mean that the nation can not later deter the nation that attacked it.
That would require Orb to possess something as a deterrence. Otherwise, if the EA ever wants something from Orb it would try to take it by force again.

And In the 2 years since SEED, there's no indication that Ob has suddenly gained anything that would deter an attack.
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He was in charge of an elite unit that contained currently contained ZAFT's strongest mobile suits. As well as being the son of the leader of the ZAFT, I think it's reasonable to say he knows what he's talking about when it comes to what he thinks would be good for ZAFT in these situations.

And it doesn't change the fact that the sky is blue either. What's your point? Orb knew what they were risking and what they were risking wasn't just a conflict with one ship.
My point is that Athrun does not speak for all of ZAFT's leadership. The reason why Athrun didn't attack was because he's the kind of person who wouldn't needlessly attack without need.

But just because Athrun is like that, it doesn't mean that Orb is capable of deterring an attack from either EA or ZAFT.

Heck, ZAFT's invasion of Orb in Destiny proves that if they really want it, they have no problem attacking Orb.
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The PR stunt wasn't done to stop EA from attacking.
We're talking about ZAFT in this part.
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That's not what PR stunts do.
It is when the "PR stunt" is a lie that attempts to negate the very reason why ZAFT would attack in the first place.
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Then why would he draw parallel to the Archangel incident? Orb didn't believe they actually fooled ZAFT then and they didn't do what they did in SEED because they thought ZAFT could be fooled.
Orb tried to fool ZAFT in SEED as well.
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Old 2013-02-12, 04:18   Link #5897
Eidolon Sniper
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Why would they risk open war with a neutral country over one ship and one mobile suit? seriously, just drop it, Athrun isnt stupid either, Neither is Zaft, they wouldnt go to war with Orb just because it took the AA in.

Also, Irrelevant, since they never went to war with orb, it's once again you speculating without any fact to back it up except your own imagination
It wasn't just one ship and one MS. Both were top of the line (back then), were still allied with the EA, and for a supposedly neutral country taking them in speaks volumes that they aren't that neutral as they claim they are. and given how that one ship and that one MS managed to escape them too many times and leaving a large number of ZAFT victims in their wake, it's not that easy saying they should be left alone when they went to Orb to hide.

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Let's see now, in Seed, the EA got whipped, lost their mass driver(s) and invaded orb because of the following:
1. They had facilities
2. They had a Mass driver
That's why, since the EA needed a mass driver to get to space, that was the effort it was worth, thats why we don't see anything from Orb after the Mass driver is blown up, the maincrew moved to space with Azrael's forces on the ground. (for now)

Where did they ever say " SHIET, ORB IS SO POWERFUL THEY COULD POSSIBLY DETER OUR ARMADA " they never did, and Orb surely did fall, two days after the battle ensued with lots of losses aswell, Orb took its armed forces and ran off to space, with the only warship they had, pretty desperate for a country that could deter them, no?
Uzumi did blow up Orb, which practically made Orb useless to the advancing EA armies.

As for your stand that Orb cannot stand on its own, for a reason both in SEED and Destiny not a single country is shown to be taking over it. And we have these countries not willing to do anything to it if it came to that. It's the only nation in the earth sphere which had owned a colony, a high technology MS manufacturer in its territory, and managed to create a golden MS with a very advanced anti beam properties armor (not really sure if the PLANTs have also discovered about this breakthrough), not to mention have created 4 Astrays. Now, I would like to hear your position as to why Orb STILL cannot stand on its own 2 feet, given these very, very blatant facts.

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But they are, thats what happened in the show. Cagalli clearly wasnt in power, if anything she was a official puppet of the Seirans, they ran the military, they ran the politics, they ran Orb when she came back from her Minerva trip.

You not accepting the fact that the Seirans ran orb is your own problem, but its what happened in the show. We arent told when or how the Seirans claimed the power, it just happened, and thats what we have to accept.
IIRC, the Seirans weren't really remotely doing ANYTHING speaking of their political clout at all until they sided with the EA. If they were clearly in power, we wouldn't have Orb suddenly running to aid Cagalli after it was all over. We do have that instance where Yuna blackmailed Cagalli into marrying him, but it still took 2 years (from SEED) to have her in a position of relative vulnerability before they have managed to make her accept what they wanted.
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Old 2013-02-12, 04:53   Link #5898
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
It wasn't just one ship and one MS. Both were top of the line (back then), were still allied with the EA, and for a supposedly neutral country taking them in speaks volumes that they aren't that neutral as they claim they are. and given how that one ship and that one MS managed to escape them too many times and leaving a large number of ZAFT victims in their wake, it's not that easy saying they should be left alone when they went to Orb to hide.
It's a moot point since Athrun decided to take on the Archangel on his own.
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Uzumi did blow up Orb, which practically made Orb useless to the advancing EA armies.

As for your stand that Orb cannot stand on its own, for a reason both in SEED and Destiny not a single country is shown to be taking over it. And we have these countries not willing to do anything to it if it came to that. It's the only nation in the earth sphere which had owned a colony, a high technology MS manufacturer in its territory, and managed to create a golden MS with a very advanced anti beam properties armor (not really sure if the PLANTs have also discovered about this breakthrough), not to mention have created 4 Astrays. Now, I would like to hear your position as to why Orb STILL cannot stand on its own 2 feet, given these very, very blatant facts.
Except Orb was taken over by the EA in SEED.
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IIRC, the Seirans weren't really remotely doing ANYTHING speaking of their political clout at all until they sided with the EA. If they were clearly in power, we wouldn't have Orb suddenly running to aid Cagalli after it was all over. We do have that instance where Yuna blackmailed Cagalli into marrying him, but it still took 2 years (from SEED) to have her in a position of relative vulnerability before they have managed to make her accept what they wanted.
It's a shared power. Cagalli simply failed to gain enough supporters for her cause back then.
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Old 2013-02-12, 07:31   Link #5899
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
It wasn't just one ship and one MS. Both were top of the line (back then), were still allied with the EA, and for a supposedly neutral country taking them in speaks volumes that they aren't that neutral as they claim they are. and given how that one ship and that one MS managed to escape them too many times and leaving a large number of ZAFT victims in their wake, it's not that easy saying they should be left alone when they went to Orb to hide.
Didnt the EA lose both artemis, the 6th space fleet among others to ensue the AAs safety? im quite sure the losses hit both sides quite hard.

Quote:
Uzumi did blow up Orb, which practically made Orb useless to the advancing EA armies.
Yeah, im sure i mentioned it in a earlier post of mine, if i didnt im sorry, ORB was invaded by the EA because of what i mentioned in my earlier post, when Uzumi did the "Heroic sacrifice" the EA had no interest in them anymore (unless mentioned in other side materials, ill just disregard them for now since this is the anime we are talking about, someone fill me in on the details here if im missing out on something)

Quote:
As for your stand that Orb cannot stand on its own, for a reason both in SEED and Destiny not a single country is shown to be taking over it. And we have these countries not willing to do anything to it if it came to that. It's the only nation in the earth sphere which had owned a colony, a high technology MS manufacturer in its territory, and managed to create a golden MS with a very advanced anti beam properties armor (not really sure if the PLANTs have also discovered about this breakthrough), not to mention have created 4 Astrays. Now, I would like to hear your position as to why Orb STILL cannot stand on its own 2 feet, given these very, very blatant facts.
Orb can stand on its own as a nation, but it cant survive a prolonged conflict against the EA or Zaft, nor deter their full forces as shown in both Seed and Destiny.

(read monsters post for the rest, he summed it up quite nicely)
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Old 2013-02-12, 11:38   Link #5900
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Didnt the EA lose both artemis, the 6th space fleet among others to ensue the AAs safety? im quite sure the losses hit both sides quite hard.
...which further reinforces the point that the Archangel and the Strike isn't just "one ship and one MS" you're going on about. It really shows that the EA is also willing to sacrifice a lot of their own men just to make sure it wasn't captured by ZAFT. You don't waste a lot of resources just so "one ship and one MS" can survive.

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Yeah, im sure i mentioned it in a earlier post of mine, if i didnt im sorry, ORB was invaded by the EA because of what i mentioned in my earlier post, when Uzumi did the "Heroic sacrifice" the EA had no interest in them anymore (unless mentioned in other side materials, ill just disregard them for now since this is the anime we are talking about, someone fill me in on the details here if im missing out on something)
I am not really sure, but I think it was shown that Azrael also wanted to invade Orb right away, and it's not just because of one mass driver - there is its' highly advanced technology to speak of. Azrael basically told Orb "join up or we'll see your inaction to do so as betrayal/joining up with the Coordinators and we'll take over your country". When Uzumi did the "heroic sacrifice" it burnt down Orb effectively, rendering it useless - it allowed Uzumi to protect Orb's technological assets as well. Pretty much it destroyed the EA's chance of getting a free mass driver, and it also destroyed their chance to get their hands on Orb's superior technology. It just wasn't because the EA lost interest in Orb once the mass driver was destroyed.

Also at the beginning of Destiny, Orb was in a position wherein the Junius Treaty even had specifically prohibited them in lending their military technological know-how to either ZAFT or the EA. This also points to Orb being a military power so powerful it can swing either side to victory in a war.

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Orb can stand on its own as a nation, but it cant survive a prolonged conflict against the EA or Zaft, nor deter their full forces as shown in both Seed and Destiny.

(read monsters post for the rest, he summed it up quite nicely)
We were only shown bits of what Orb is like during invasion. We weren't given a chance to see how it is like without an imminent invasion. Partly thanks to its nonsensical ideology, Orb was never really shown to fully show its muscle. However even given these, Orb was not taken lightly in the sense that other countries will invade it just for teh lulz. Pretty much if that's the case, any country can go against Orb because of their "lacking" military resources, but we weren't given any of that during the entire run of the anime, or even in side materials.

Basically, this is the reason why Shinn hated the Athhas. it was more of them protecting the country's ideals rather than think of the consequences it will have and its effects on all the people who trusted in Orb. And also the fact that Orb was heavily implied that it can compete directly with ZAFT/EA in military technology, but they'd rather have it burned down than protect their citizens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster
It's a moot point since Athrun decided to take on the Archangel on his own.
Are you referring to where exactly? Their SEED Orb infiltration as spies?

Quote:
Except Orb was taken over by the EA in SEED.
Except during that point, it was already at the end of the series. Also we are arguing about how easy it is to take over Orb just for teh lulz, without the urgency of imminent invasion. It's funny how the series paints Orb as some kind of untouchable country (given the facts I have pointed out earlier and how it is implied), but gets easily overwhelmed in 2 - 3 episodes, max.

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It's a shared power. Cagalli simply failed to gain enough supporters for her cause back then.
SEED had everything going for Cagalli, heck, she was a heroine of that war. If any, it should give cause for people to support her, as well as being Uzumi's daughter. However, we didn't see Seirans doing anything politically noteworthy until they sided with the EA. Given the 2 year gap before Destiny, the Seirans could already have completely taken control of the Orb Union and would have already forced Cagalli to marry Yuna if they were so completely in power at that point. They still waited for 2 damn years to be in a position where they can easily tell Cagalli to accept their terms.
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