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Old 2013-02-11, 10:26   Link #26341
Mentar
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My reading comprehension is perfectly fine, thank you very much. I'm just pointing out that your assertion that establishing a stepping-down-in-time "tradition" is "against church law" is in my most humble opinion simply flat-out wrong. Sorry.

The decision whether or not a pope resigns due to old age is his and his alone, and should (and will) stay this way. With the same justification you could argue the opposite, namely that being forced to stay pope even though your old age precludes you of many of your duties is a "tradition" too, which impacts the free will of the pope, too.

In this way, I think that Ratzinger did the office a big favor, since he _broke_ a tradition. A taboo. And I hope that he won't be the last. I had enough pictures of an elderly man forced to do services which would be considered a terrible coercion simply because he HAD to, but couldn't really do it anymore.
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Old 2013-02-11, 10:30   Link #26342
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
In this way, I think that Ratzinger did the office a big favor, since he _broke_ a tradition. A taboo.
He didn't, since every pope since Celestine V had that option, with some of the recent popes actually having prepared resignation documents to be used in certain circumstances. There was no tradition that one had to stay as pope, and every resignation should and must be based on the will of the pope himself. To make that into a tradition is contrary to the expectation of the pope: His will to carry out his duties. Should he wish to resign, he may do so, but to have a tradition is a form of pressure which is artificial.
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Old 2013-02-11, 12:29   Link #26343
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Waiting for someone in your cult following to announce this is proof that you're a thousand year old vampire big sister.
she isn't
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Old 2013-02-11, 12:35   Link #26344
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she isn't
Are you sure?
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Old 2013-02-11, 12:47   Link #26345
Lord of Fire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
He didn't, since every pope since Celestine V had that option, with some of the recent popes actually having prepared resignation documents to be used in certain circumstances. There was no tradition that one had to stay as pope, and every resignation should and must be based on the will of the pope himself. To make that into a tradition is contrary to the expectation of the pope: His will to carry out his duties. Should he wish to resign, he may do so, but to have a tradition is a form of pressure which is artificial.
You said the Pope has the right to quit if he chooses to do so. Yet, the majority of the Popes that went before him chose to stay till they died, even though they could have left at anytime. Doesn't that mean that they themselves stuck to a tradition of some sort?
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Old 2013-02-11, 12:54   Link #26346
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Lord of Fire View Post
You said the Pope has the right to quit if he chooses to do so. Yet, the majority of the Popes that went before him chose to stay till they died, even though they could have left at anytime. Doesn't that mean that they themselves stuck to a tradition of some sort?
Because they felt no reason to resign?
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Old 2013-02-11, 13:41   Link #26347
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
How often are we going to have that many old popes being elected, or that many popes serving more than twenty years? My point was that the general history is weighted against there being a tradition in the first place, and furthermore such tradition would be contrary to the laws of the Church, where resignations must be purely voluntary. A tradition is NOT voluntary, since it is a form of pressure.
Actually, Popes are almost always extremely old when they are elected, the average age over the last 500 years being about 64, and there have been 12 instances where there was a "year of 3 popes" where the pope elected died before the end of the year, and there was 1 year of four popes.

With people living longer today, and infirmity, senility and dementia being increasingly common, it may be necessary for more popes in the future to resign, as they will lack the physical or mental capacity to carry out their duties (in fact, it's possible that the Catholic church stagnated somewhat during the later years of John Paul II due to his infirmity).

Having an age limit on the Papacy is not without precedent. Every other ecclesiastical office has a mandatory retirement age, namely priests at 70, Bishops and Arch-Bishops at 75, and Cardinals lose their voting privileges at the age of 80 (though otherwise the position is for life).

It might be beneficial to the vitality of the Church if they introduced a tradition of resignation for the Pope, when he feels he is no longer fit for it's duties. As it is, the Church has many difficult problems to overcome if it is to keep people within the Catholic Church. I can't speak for other countries, but the slide into irrelevance in Ireland has been very swift, used to be the Church pretty much ran the country.
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Old 2013-02-11, 13:58   Link #26348
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Nancy Pelosi: Video Games Are Not The Reason For Violence In America:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...?utm_hp_ref=tw
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Old 2013-02-11, 13:58   Link #26349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I can't speak for other countries, but the slide into irrelevance in Ireland has been very swift, used to be the Church pretty much ran the country.
wasn't because that because you guys woke up one day and decades of corruptions and abuse by the Church was plaster all over the news outlets?
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Old 2013-02-11, 14:01   Link #26350
AnimeFan188
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DHS Watchdog OKs ‘Suspicionless’ Seizure of Electronic Devices Along Border:

"The Department of Homeland Security’s civil rights watchdog has concluded that
travelers along the nation’s borders may have their electronics seized and the
contents of those devices examined for any reason whatsoever — all in the name
of national security."

"According to legal precedent, the Fourth Amendment — the right to be free from
unreasonable searches and seizures — does not apply along the border. By the
way, the government contends the Fourth-Amendment-Free Zone stretches 100
miles inland from the nation’s actual border."

See:

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/201...?cid=co5746764
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Old 2013-02-11, 14:17   Link #26351
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
wasn't because that because you guys woke up one day and decades of corruptions and abuse by the Church was plaster all over the news outlets?
That's part of it.

But the Church was also incompetent in responding to it.

However, I don't think the scandals alone explain the slide of the church, as there hasn't been a mass exodus from the Catholic church to other denominations. The bigger issue is that people just aren't going to church anymore. Society is changing, but the Catholic church hasn't changed with the times.

That said, the Church is right to be cautious. If we look at the US, the Episcopalian church(the protestant church closest to Catholicism) liberalized but it did nothing to halt their declining church numbers, and if anything it only accelerated it as more people left it for more conservative Evangelical churches. There's a similar story going on in England, but there the Church of England could end up in a schism between it's conservative and liberal wings. Moving to ordaine women or loosen it's attitudes to Homosexuality probably wouldn't improve it's lot. However, they probably should at least lift the celibacy policy (at least on parish priests).
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Old 2013-02-11, 17:49   Link #26352
Kyuu
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On the Pope... oh lordy...



Spoiler:


Somehow, when this Pope was instated some 7-8 years ago... it felt as if he wasn't going to be a great Pope... not like his predecessor. But hey, if he chooses to resign, he has the very right to do so -- in order to make room for someone who can do the job better. Often enough, resignation can be the more difficult choice. In this case, it is.
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Old 2013-02-11, 19:03   Link #26353
AnimeFan188
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Report: Ex-Cop Christopher Dorner Is Now a Target for Drones:

"Christopher Dorner, the ex-LAPD cop who allegedly killed three people has been
on the run, successfully evading police, for over a week. To finally track him down,
it seems that law enforcement is pulling out all the stops. According to the
Express, Dorner is now a target for drones, among the first ever on U.S. soil."

See:

http://gizmodo.com/5983175/report-ex...get-for-drones
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Old 2013-02-11, 20:16   Link #26354
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeFan188 View Post
Report: Ex-Cop Christopher Dorner Is Now a Target for Drones:

"Christopher Dorner, the ex-LAPD cop who allegedly killed three people has been
on the run, successfully evading police, for over a week. To finally track him down,
it seems that law enforcement is pulling out all the stops. According to the
Express, Dorner is now a target for drones, among the first ever on U.S. soil."

See:

http://gizmodo.com/5983175/report-ex...get-for-drones
And the innocent people the police have already shot in error/panic now have another reason to panic. I'm seeing a lot of stocky black guys wearing t-shirts that say "I'm not Dorner", even LL Cool J is nervous.
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Old 2013-02-11, 20:22   Link #26355
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
And the innocent people the police have already shot in error/panic now have another reason to panic. I'm seeing a lot of stocky black guys wearing t-shirts that say "I'm not Dorner", even LL Cool J is nervous.
considering the police mistook 2 elderly Latina women who combine weight less then Dorner. I think everyone should be worry.
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Old 2013-02-11, 20:29   Link #26356
Ithekro
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Might the the situation that changes the legal ruling of drones and what the governemnt can and cannot do on US soil to US Citizens. Even at the border.
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Old 2013-02-11, 23:17   Link #26357
ganbaru
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Seismic activity may indicate North Korea nuclear test
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...91B04820130212
Quote:
Seismic activity has been detected in North Korea with an earthquake measuring 4.9 magnitude registered by the U.S. Geological Survey, in a move that South Korea said indicated that Pyongyang had carried out a third nuclear test.
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Old 2013-02-12, 00:44   Link #26358
Terrestrial Dream
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Seismic activity may indicate North Korea nuclear test
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...91B04820130212
South Korea confirmed that there was a nuclear test.
http://live.reuters.com/Event/North_Korea
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Old 2013-02-12, 00:59   Link #26359
monir
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NY Times got an article up also.
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Old 2013-02-12, 01:08   Link #26360
Ithekro
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Lovely. How large of a weapon?
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