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Old 2013-02-08, 00:16   Link #12001
Thth
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by runset View Post
that's true, but the reason why they never give up and never fold even if they have absolutely no logical reason to continue is because they have purpose. the purpose usually is about "for my friend" or "to "protect something", if the purpose was lost then do you expect them to continue. (like ichigo from bleach when all of his friend memories were modified)
Except the purpose she came to this place,i.e, save Shiranui,save her 'friend', is still there. And good amount Shonen heroes do keep going if that is the case.

Last edited by Thth; 2013-02-08 at 00:44.
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Old 2013-02-08, 07:03   Link #12002
ccie20012
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Medaka or too stupid. Or too smart.
I'm hoping for the latter. I really liked Medaka from the last arc.
As she calmly and coldly calculate all the options for save Zen.
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Old 2013-02-08, 08:09   Link #12003
Sol Falling
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"Bakemono" is a fine word to describe Medaka. I disagree that the word "monster" carries any moral implications--it represents only a judgement, a presumption, on the part of the accuser. By nature, the word "monster" only carries connotations of something unknown, beyond comprehension, of the ones using that word. Fear, desperation, uncertainty--to be called a monster is to be put into a position of inherent superiority.

All sentient minds, born into the social context of humanity, will tend to think of themselves as "human" (or try to become "human"). By developing some natural concept of "human" within themselves, they come to naturally define a contrasting intuition called "monster". The accusations of Medaka's 'monstrosity' right now belong to Iihiko alone. Kakegae and Kotobuki might agree with him conceptually, but it is only Iihiko himself who has experienced the irrational feelings of fear and repulsion.

Iihiko defined a "hero" to be "a person with a purpose". And he defined a "human" to be "someone who lives just to live". Beyond these two definitions, other types of human are beyond his comprehension. That is why Medaka has become a monster to him: because she has been reduced into a mess possessing neither a purpose, nor the self-preservational instinct necessary to live.

Medaka's trampling by Iihiko represents a complete breakdown of her self. There is no way to treat her senseless "determination" as a victory; neither any way to believe she carries any hint of her former heroic nobility. Instead, what Medaka's singleminded desperation (and the results it brought her) can represent is only something broken; as Kakegae said, someone like a chronic gambler, spiralling into self-destruction. However, what I think Medaka's breakdown proves in itself is Medaka's humanity--because humans are irrational, weak, self-destructive and pointless. Iihiko's neat, rational explanations "Heroes have a purpose", "Humans just try to live" are precisely the reason why Medaka became an incomprehensible monster to him--he cannot comprehend irrationality, can't hope to grasp self-destructive weaknesses.

Medaka is superior to Iihiko in the nature of being human. That is the victory I think she earned over Iihiko in this chapter. She is human because only someone with Iihiko's monstrous strength could call Medaka's actions in this chapter those of a monster. Medaka only did something any weak, irrational, desperate human, would be capable of doing--clinging onto someone's legs, and not giving up.
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Old 2013-02-08, 12:22   Link #12004
ccie20012
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I want to say: I am absolutely not satisfied with this chapter.
Return please to me a "true" Medaka. This is sort of a fake - as is Medaka-3.
True Medaka never despaired. True Medaka always thought in a critical situation as a calculator.
True Medaka always collated goal and means.
Shiranui why is so important to her? This is what is skewed to mad battle manga, where friendship more important than love or other people?
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Old 2013-02-08, 12:24   Link #12005
Kaisos Erranon
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@Sol Falling:
See, I don't agree. How are we supposed to tell the difference between the author's opinion and the opinion of his characters (especially at this juncture)?
This chapter felt more like the former than anything else, which is why I'm so pissed-off.
You could argue that no sane person would truly view Medaka's actions here as worthy of condemnation, but this is the guy who wrote several books about how victims of bullying and parental abuse are responsible for their own misery, so...
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Old 2013-02-08, 13:37   Link #12006
Endscape
The Mage of Four Hearts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
@Sol Falling:
See, I don't agree. How are we supposed to tell the difference between the author's opinion and the opinion of his characters (especially at this juncture)?
This chapter felt more like the former than anything else, which is why I'm so pissed-off.
You use context.

Quote:
You could argue that no sane person would truly view Medaka's actions here as worthy of condemnation
You realize the only people calling Medaka a monster in universe this chapter are monsters themselves? That's supposed to tell you something.

Quote:
but this is the guy who wrote several books about how victims of bullying and parental abuse are responsible for their own misery, so...
Again, I ask, where on Earth do you get this from?
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Old 2013-02-08, 14:01   Link #12007
Last Carpet
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....I wonder why Joutou isn't lisping anymore?
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Old 2013-02-08, 14:45   Link #12008
kenjtr
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I think this chapter smelled like ending of "shin angyo onshi" which is a great korean masterpiece superior to most mangas we usually read so i think author made this chapter by the inspiration he got from its ending cause exact same thing happened there .
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Old 2013-02-08, 15:24   Link #12009
Lupus753
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@Kaisos: i am going to assume you simply misinterpreted a message from one of his works. Any other thought would lead to horror that anyone could actually say something so heartless.

@Endscape: As I said before, it is sometimes difficult to differentiate between author soapboxes and characters' opinions. Sometimes, the author has villains and jerks say the author's viewpoint. Occasionally, it's to say, "Hey, if THIS guy can see the obvious..." or maybe the author doesn't consider it important. In any case, it's hard to see if we're supposed to agree with those two.
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Old 2013-02-08, 15:32   Link #12010
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
You realize the only people calling Medaka a monster in universe this chapter are monsters themselves? That's supposed to tell you something.
I read their lines this chapter (that is, about how continuing to struggle even after losing everything that you value makes you no longer human) as the author commenting on the situation.
Given the context, I have difficulty seeing it as just their opinions.
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Old 2013-02-08, 17:17   Link #12011
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupus753 View Post
@Kaisos: i am going to assume you simply misinterpreted a message from one of his works. Any other thought would lead to horror that anyone could actually say something so heartless.
Of course he has. Judging from an earlier comment, I know what he's talking about, and he's completely wrong.

Quote:
@Endscape: As I said before, it is sometimes difficult to differentiate between author soapboxes and characters' opinions. Sometimes, the author has villains and jerks say the author's viewpoint. Occasionally, it's to say, "Hey, if THIS guy can see the obvious..." or maybe the author doesn't consider it important.
As I said, that's where context comes in. Who is saying what? Who are they saying it to? What is their reasoning for saying it? In what situation did they say it?

Quote:
In any case, it's hard to see if we're supposed to agree with those two.
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I read their lines this chapter (that is, about how continuing to struggle even after losing everything that you value makes you no longer human) as the author commenting on the situation.
Given the context, I have difficulty seeing it as just their opinions.
Firstly, Medaka hasn't lost absolutely everything yet. She still trying to rescue Shiranui, who she believes is still in there somewhere.

Secondly, look at who's talking here. Iihiko, who has already lost everything and Kotobuki and Kakegae, who can throw away anything, can't understand how Medaka can risk everything for the sake of something important to her.

Then we have Nienami, who comes in and clearly says that it's because they can't understand, that they lost.

Nisio makes it pretty clear that it's just their opinion and that he disagrees with it.
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Old 2013-02-12, 13:29   Link #12012
DawnEmperor
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Updates for this week?
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Old 2013-02-12, 14:56   Link #12013
runset
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
Updates for this week?
Spoiler for 182 spoiler:

the main character change in just one chapter, wow

and this is the spoiler conversation
Spoiler for from 4 chan:

Last edited by runset; 2013-02-12 at 15:06. Reason: a little mistake
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Old 2013-02-12, 15:31   Link #12014
Gundamx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runset View Post
Spoiler for 182 spoiler:

the main character change in just one chapter, wow

and this is the spoiler conversation
Spoiler for from 4 chan:
About damn time!+ thanks.
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Old 2013-02-12, 15:56   Link #12015
K. Shiruto
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What a monster.

Spoiler for spoiler:
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Old 2013-02-12, 18:31   Link #12016
kenjtr
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Damn medaka what a trouble maker you are
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Old 2013-02-12, 23:32   Link #12017
DawnEmperor
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Old 2013-02-13, 06:43   Link #12018
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Old 2013-02-13, 08:01   Link #12019
silvercover
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oh wow. if there were still some doubts of nisio being a troll, this one proves them wrong
now im really going to clap this time once the chapter is out.
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Old 2013-02-13, 15:01   Link #12020
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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That was actually far, far better than I was expecting, but...
Is Nienami really Ajimu, or not? It's like they both confirmed and denied it at the same time.
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