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Old 2013-02-08, 02:02   Link #1321
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
That's more broad than what I was getting at.

Certainly a visual experience is more than just animation, but animating stick figures is a lot easier than animating say the art style in something like Legend of the Galactic Heroes. K-ON has a very simplified art style for its characters, which makes it more fluid than something like even Haruhi, but I see this as a sacrifice in visual quality. Now if I could see more things animated at the level of K-ON or Hyouka, but with a more complex and interesting art style (Think Redline for example), that's truly impressive to me.
I don't even think that "simplified" character design lighten the burden on the animation to such a big margin as you seem to imply. Rather, the amount of moving objects/characters is what make an animation sequence truly noticeable along with the fluidity thrown in there.
Because really, if simplified art style could really do the trick, a hefty amount of series could have much better than they have now (who said SSY? *ahem*). Of course, I get what you meant with the "animating sticks" analogy, but that's quite extreme, because frankly, I will simplify the problem here, but if you compare K-On and Haruhi for instance, save the characteristic facial features being different, the differences are arguably not that big (and I of course compare with the original 2006 series, not the 2009 one). Aesthetism with colors, cinematography etc is a different field as far as I can see.

To be really frank, seeing K on and Nichijou very simple art style doesn't make me think it is "easier" to animate, especially when you have to consider the amount of animation sequences and tibits (fingers fidgetting etc) thrown in there.
What make a series animation easier, imho, would be how the storyboard is done (as in, how the guys decided to show specific scene and how key frame would look like to begin with), and what kind of animation prowess/tricks they tend to use or avoid using.

However, elaborated design will lead to one problem: design consistencies/bloopers over time.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2013-02-08 at 02:13.
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Old 2013-02-08, 02:14   Link #1322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
And really if people want to talk about the visual look as a whole can they like you know, actually say "I like the visual look of <insert show> over <insert show> instead of saying animation. Because instead of actually debating the merits of the animation we end up in some stupid debate about what animation means. Also it's fine if you like you static paintings over fluid stick figures (if you want to go to one extreme, lets go to the other) but some shows/studios find the right balance a heck of a lot more than others.
That much I can agree with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I don't even think that "simplified" character design lighten the burden on the animation to such a big margin as you seem to imply. Rather, the amount of moving objects/characters is what make an animation sequence truly noticeable along with the fluidity thrown in there.
Because really, if simplified art style could really do the trick, a hefty amount of series could have much better than they have now (who said SSY? *ahem*).

To be really frank, seeing K on and Nichijou very simple art style doesn't make me think it is "easier" to animate, especially when you have to consider the amount of animation sequences and tibits (fingers fidgetting etc) thrown in there.
What make a series animation easier, imho, would be how the storyboard is done (as in, how the guys decided to show specific scene and how key frame would look like to begin with).

However, elaborated design will lead to one problem: design consistencies/bloopers over time.
Well this may be my own ignorance, so correct me if I'm wrong, but animating naturalistic movement seems to be harder than more cartoony movement. Hyouka was pretty great at this, but K-ON was very cartoony.

You're not wrong about the storyboard, but the reason I brought up simplistic character designs is because drawing more detailed visuals requires more work to animate (and as you said, quality control becomes more difficult). It isn't easy to churn out really detailed visuals over and over again for animation so it is no small wonder that a lot of studios have been making char designs more plain and simple IMO. I love Hyouka's visuals, but it certainly reflects this too.

It's why I marvel at something like Redline. That's a once in a blue moon experience.
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Old 2013-02-08, 06:59   Link #1323
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Good cartoony movement is certainly hard to get right. A run of the mill 4koma adaptation does not feature good cartoony movement, it features bad shit.
Gurren Lagann, for example, features insanely awesome cartoony movement, and it's no worse than any Ghibli film with literal acting.

K-On! does look very cartoony at times, but more often than not it's timed perfectly and the character designs work wonders with that type of expression.

This is very silly, but the movement itself is nuanced and has a very soft feel to it, which in turn makes cuts like these warm and fuzzy, which is exactly the objective of the show. Have a look at the hand on the second gif and how she plays with the orange; there are a lot of little details like this throughout every episode. Mind you those are not the best examples, I just googled some random parts.

And a lot of the time you do have some solid "traditional" acting too

This may not be Inoue or Iso, but the range of expressions she makes, and the pompous way in which she does it tie in perfectly into the context of the scene (for anyone wondering, it's in S1E01). This is good character acting, of a kind that is rarely seen on TV.

As a corollary, character acting is not the be-all-end-all test of slice of life animation. Everything in K-On!, whether it is cartoony or more realistic, is very polished, and the sketchy movement and lineart are done on purpose, because that way the animation style goes hand in hand with the tone of the show. It's a distinct approach to animation, and for me it felt like the first time people over at Kyoani sat down and thought about what their movements and way of expression were conveying in and of themselves. The amount of effort that went into the show is ludicrous, and dismissing it as "cheap cartoony stuff" is kind of insulting.

Hyouka's approach is different, and really really good too; but even there the Horiguchi influence is really noticeable, and the show's animation wouldn't be nearly as remarkable if it followed in the vein of Haruhi 2006/KEY's half-assed style.
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Old 2013-02-08, 09:01   Link #1324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warm Mist View Post
Good cartoony movement is certainly hard to get right. A run of the mill 4koma adaptation does not feature good cartoony movement, it features bad shit.
Gurren Lagann, for example, features insanely awesome cartoony movement, and it's no worse than any Ghibli film with literal acting.

K-On! does look very cartoony at times, but more often than not it's timed perfectly and the character designs work wonders with that type of expression.
*snip*
This is very silly, but the movement itself is nuanced and has a very soft feel to it, which in turn makes cuts like these warm and fuzzy, which is exactly the objective of the show. Have a look at the hand on the second gif and how she plays with the orange; there are a lot of little details like this throughout every episode. Mind you those are not the best examples, I just googled some random parts.

And a lot of the time you do have some solid "traditional" acting too

This may not be Inoue or Iso, but the range of expressions she makes, and the pompous way in which she does it tie in perfectly into the context of the scene (for anyone wondering, it's in S1E01). This is good character acting, of a kind that is rarely seen on TV.

As a corollary, character acting is not the be-all-end-all test of slice of life animation. Everything in K-On!, whether it is cartoony or more realistic, is very polished, and the sketchy movement and lineart are done on purpose, because that way the animation style goes hand in hand with the tone of the show. It's a distinct approach to animation, and for me it felt like the first time people over at Kyoani sat down and thought about what their movements and way of expression were conveying in and of themselves. The amount of effort that went into the show is ludicrous, and dismissing it as "cheap cartoony stuff" is kind of insulting.

Hyouka's approach is different, and really really good too; but even there the Horiguchi influence is really noticeable, and the show's animation wouldn't be nearly as remarkable if it followed in the vein of Haruhi 2006/KEY's half-assed style.
Perfect. Thanks Warm Mist.

Again, animation quality does not have to do with character design, past the fact that simpler characters can be better animated for less time/money. If y'all wanna see some actually badly animated 4 koma anime, watch Kill Me Baby (other than the OP and ED). What KyoAni did with K-ON is pretty spectacular, at least as far as animation goes. imho they animated a little too much detail (like Yui's fingers on the orange ball, the way they hyperextend and stretch freaks me out lol).
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Old 2013-02-08, 16:48   Link #1325
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To me the K-ON faces designs are a part of the anti-nose conspiracy, and their hands look all sorts of wrong. However, I still recognize just how good a job they did at creating vivid movement and expressions. It's an extremely well animated show that has few equals in television anime, so it's a shame to see this aspect get criticized when it should be praised instead.
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Old 2013-02-11, 00:40   Link #1326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Keichi View Post
I watched 2 episodes of Tamako Market this week, and was very unimpressed. It just felt kind of shallow, like it was being made by a group of students who were assigned some homework and tried to get done with it quickly.
You're rather mean with Tamako Market...
Just watch the first seconds of the first episode : it's a wonderful piece of animation. You believe the characters are holding hands but they are connected with their sticks : they perfectly managed to animate the physics of a human chain. Plus if you pay attention to each character you see they have their specific motion, it's obvious with the different jumps. Another example is Midori who can be described as stronger than Tamako & Kanna (and that's why she's the center of the chain) according to her movements & physics. KyoAni sure knows how to put a soul in their animation which helps to shape the characters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
However, elaborated design will lead to one problem: design consistencies/bloopers over time.
Doesn't that mean it's more difficult to animate ?
Elaborated design means a lot of lines, more complex shapes (nose, lips...) & clothes. Design consistencies are an effect of the complexity of an elaborated design. Animators haven't much time so elaborated designs are more difficult to draw. Sometimes they lack of skills so they can't draw properly and animation directors may have not time to correct everything. There're also inbetweeners who are beginners so they may ruin the animation because the design was too elaborated.
However KyoAni is a different case since they focus on one series, have better working conditions and do everything in-house.
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Old 2013-02-11, 03:05   Link #1327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyouray View Post
You're rather mean with Tamako Market...
Just watch the first seconds of the first episode : it's a wonderful piece of animation. You believe the characters are holding hands but they are connected with their sticks : they perfectly managed to animate the physics of a human chain. Plus if you pay attention to each character you see they have their specific motion, it's obvious with the different jumps. Another example is Midori who can be described as stronger than Tamako & Kanna (and that's why she's the center of the chain) according to her movements & physics. KyoAni sure knows how to put a soul in their animation which helps to shape the characters.
The animation is truly fantastic, but it's not a substitute for a good story, compelling characters, or clever direction. Maybe a short cartoon can get away with a shallow story if it has amazing animation and storyboarding, but a full-fledged TV series needs more than that.

I'm not impressed by Tamako Market either. I feel that the characters and premise have some potential for greatness, but something about the show throws me off. I find it hard to really like the characters, and the execution of the slice-of-life aspects feels esoteric and bizarre rather than relaxing or invigorating.

Maybe it's Yamada Naoko's directing. She did a good job in adapting the K-On manga, but Tamako Market is a different beast from K-On despite sharing the same character designer. Maybe Satou Junichi would have been a better choice to direct Tamako Market.
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Old 2013-02-11, 05:25   Link #1328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
The animation is truly fantastic, but it's not a substitute for a good story, compelling characters, or clever direction.
But the poster kyouray was replying to wasn't impressed by the animation,that's the subject at hand,not the rest,or so I thought.
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Old 2013-02-11, 10:54   Link #1329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
The animation is truly fantastic, but it's not a substitute for a good story, compelling characters, or clever direction. Maybe a short cartoon can get away with a shallow story if it has amazing animation and storyboarding, but a full-fledged TV series needs more than that.

I'm not impressed by Tamako Market either. I feel that the characters and premise have some potential for greatness, but something about the show throws me off. I find it hard to really like the characters, and the execution of the slice-of-life aspects feels esoteric and bizarre rather than relaxing or invigorating.

Maybe it's Yamada Naoko's directing. She did a good job in adapting the K-On manga, but Tamako Market is a different beast from K-On despite sharing the same character designer. Maybe Satou Junichi would have been a better choice to direct Tamako Market.
Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
But the poster kyouray was replying to wasn't impressed by the animation,that's the subject at hand,not the rest,or so I thought.
totoum's right I was only talking about Tamako Market's animation in my post
though I agree with you, animation only doesn't make a good TV series.
I kind can understand why people think Tamako Market is dull but it works for me. I enjoyed how they introduced characters with character centric episodes specially the third episode and its neat storyboard. I don't think Yamada's at fault but it may be the story and the 1-cour format which make you feel like that.
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Old 2013-02-13, 08:29   Link #1330
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So yeah, S3? 2013 is Haruhi's 10th anniversary
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Old 2013-02-13, 09:08   Link #1331
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Season 3 is surely coming. We all hope so! =P

At least it all shows that they might come up with a surprise season 3. It'd be more loved than Tamako Market imo.
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Old 2013-02-13, 09:24   Link #1332
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Originally Posted by Ragecry View Post
Season 3 is surely coming. We all hope so! =P

At least it all shows that they might come up with a surprise season 3. It'd be more loved than Tamako Market imo.
obviously. Barely anyone likes Tamako
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Old 2013-02-13, 11:24   Link #1333
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I once thought to give it a try.. but the story ain't what I call a story. I hope you get what I said lol.
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Old 2013-02-13, 14:39   Link #1334
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And there we have it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ANN
I know that sales are a big factor that determine weather or not a sequel for an anime gets made, but what else is there? I ask because there are several examples of shows that have done extremely well in DVD/BD sales, but still have no continuations. Two examples off the top of my head are The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya and Horizon in the Middle of Nowhere. Both have been beasts in the home video market, but we haven't seen more Haruhi since the movie two years ago, and we still haven't gotten word on a third season for Horizon.

I know Haruhi got two seasons (three years apart), an ONA (based on the spin-off manga), and a movie, and you're probably asking, "What more could you ask for?" Well, I'm asking for more. There are currently 11 light novel volumes for Haruhi, so there's plenty more to animate, and I don't know why you wouldn't keep it going until it stops making money. Horizon has sold a minimum of 20k untis per volume (12), and that, too, is an incomplete story with more source material to animate.

It just seems weird that the production committees behind those shows don't seem to be planning more anime. I mean, why stop making things that make money? SHAFT and Shinbo seem to have the right idea since they've made it clear that they plan to adapt all of the Bakemonogatari series, and I'm sure Aniplex and Kodansha are right there with them. At this moment, Bakemonogatari has two TV series and an OVA series made, with another TV series, OVA, and a movie in the wing. That's a lot more than what Haurhi or Horizon have.

Do Kadokawa and Kyoto Animation just not want to do more even though Haurhi is one of the biggest franchises ever? Are Bandai and MediaWorks content with leaving the Horizon anime where it is despite its huge success? If so, why? Why would you just stop?

Now, I'm going to POSSIBLY blow your mind with this one, but consider this - maybe, possibly, they're not making any more Haruhi animated things simply because they don't want to anymore? Obviously, yes, sales are a big factor to decide whether or not to continue a specific series. They're pretty much the biggest factor there is - depending on whether or not they feel like keeping the series alive in the first place.

Folks, there isn't any contractual obligation out there that an anime series MUST finish the original story if it is based upon previously published material, such as a manga or light novel series. There's a LOT of factors that decide the fate of your favorite anime. Sales, sure. That's a big'un. Viability of the brand? Also huge. Cost? Big factor. But all of those are dependent on the fact that anime series still depend on PEOPLE. They need writers, directors, animators, and so on down the line.

Speaking of Haruhi Suzumiya; it's important to understand just how HUGE the impact that particular title had. A lot of the principle players in that show's success have moved on to other things. Fumihiko Shimo has written episodes of Infinite Stratos and Kokoro Connect. Tatsuya Ishihara directed the first episode of Nichijō. Like I mentioned in a previous column, a lot of the initial staff who created the series as we know and love it have moved on; if they really wanted to keep the gravy train a-runnin', it would require an entirely new staff. And who knows if that'll work?

Recently, Disney just announced a slate of Star Wars spinoff films in addition to the direct sequels they plan on producing. This has filled me with nothing but dread and despair. Why do we need any of this stuff? I'm not opposed to people making Star Wars movies so long as they're entertaining and not as awful as the prequels, but why are we so willing to watch some potential crap just for the sake of "continuing the story"? The series was fine when it concluded in the early 80's; everything that has been done with the franchise since then has either existed to placate the existing fanbase (the "expanded universe" novels, the Knights of the Old Republic games) or make money despite being terrible (THOSE GOD DAMN PREQUELS). Remember when restraint was a good thing? Remember when people used to respect certain filmmakers who "didn't do sequels"? Remember when video game fans looked upon cult developer Treasure because they "refused" to make sequels? Until somebody gave them a pile of money to make a sequel to Gunstar Heroes that nobody liked or wanted?

There's a risk here that I want people to consider. Sure, there's enough leftover material for Haruhi Suzumiya and Horizon on the Middle of Nowhere (I'll admit I haven't seen the latter, since the gratuitously large breasts in the promo art made me cautious) to keep going for another season or two. They could certainly wring enough money from the wallets of die-hard fans to make another series profitable, no matter how good or awful it was. But why take that chance? What we had was good already; wouldn't we like to see these talented artists, writers, and directors challenge themselves with something new?

Oh, that's right: new things are scary and unknown, and given the choice, people would rather be fed the same familiar gruel than take a chance on an unknown property. There's a good possibility it might be great, but there's ALSO the minute risk that it might be something we don't care about. Let's stick to familiar ground, then. Let's trot out Haruhi Suzumiya for another round, just because it would sell enough DVDs to be profitable. Let's not bother with anything new or interesting. There's enough material yet to be adapted to make a quick buck.

It's a pretty cynical mindset, and one I'm not a fan of. Everybody clamors for sequels, prequels, and reboots. But where's the next thing that knocks your socks off and you can't wait to see a prequel or a sequel or a reboot? Where's the next Haruhi Suzumiya? Because it ain't Haruhi Suzumiya. That's been done already.
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Old 2013-02-13, 14:45   Link #1335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANN
Quote:
Oh, that's right: new things are scary and unknown, and given the choice, people would rather be fed the same familiar gruel than take a chance on an unknown property.
That's all I needed to read. Typical elitist crap that wants to be taken seriously. Also, that is one crappy format they use to separate answers from questions.
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Old 2013-02-13, 15:25   Link #1336
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Originally Posted by SRanger View Post
10th anniversary
Until the sequel is announced I kinda hope everything Kadokawa produces fails. Seriously, fuck them!

Also, how is Answerman supposed to know anything about that? It is not like ANN has an insider connection at Kadokawa, they certainly couldn't share anything even if they had. At this point I would just ask ultimatemegax whatever. Consequently, the answer was bullshit indeed.
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Old 2013-02-13, 15:26   Link #1337
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Link to original source article: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com.au/answerman/2013-02-08
Questions in normal type, answers by the writer in bold.

----------------------------

It's just another dude speculating much like the rest of us. I don't see how he has anymore inside info than any of us here, or at least it wasn't particularly mentioned in there anyway.
edit: lol ninja'd by scineram.
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Old 2013-02-13, 16:34   Link #1338
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The ANN article is reasonably well-written (in the sense of word choice, grammar, sentence structure, tone, etc...) but it suffers from the same thing that a lot of ANN articles do - Too western-oriented in its focus/thinking, and a bit shallow if you yourself are a hardcore and/or knowledgeable anime fan.

The implicit Star Wars/Haruhi comparison is a poor one because Star Wars is a completed narrative. I don't have a desire for more Star Wars for the same reason that I don't have any desire for more Shakugan no Shana - It's done. Nice, neat, and tidy, with a satisfying conclusion. I share the writer's dread at more Star Wars. It could very easily go off the rails and detract from the original (mind you, perhaps that isn't so important given what the Prequels themselves did ).

But the Haruhi anime does not have a satisfying conclusion, as of yet. Disappearance clearly points to more narrative yet to come, so it obviously doesn't work well as a conclusion.


And the real reason why KyoAni isn't making more Haruhi is complex, but basically boils down to this...

1) KyoAni can make a hit anime out of almost anything. It's not like the alternative to more Haruhi is a massive sales risk.

2) Kadokawa doesn't want more Haruhi made. They'd rather promote some of their more obscure properties. I don't particularly like this, but I have to admit it makes some sense.

3) KyoAni is very production-constrained. They only make 2 or 3 shows a year. This is in sharp contrast to, say, JC Staff or A-1 Pictures. There probably would be more Haruhi if either of them had the rights to the property.


Honestly, it's a bit depressing that an ANN article is significantly less informative than what I get from basic google searches and discussion here on Anime Suki.

So aside from being competently written in a "Yes, he can write Ok" sort of way, that article is pretty disappointing.


Going back to Haruhi, I'm inclined to think that 2013 is make or break for the Haruhi anime. If I don't hear about more Haruhi being made into anime by the end of this year (or before), then I'm going to give up on it. It's generally not healthy to cling to increasingly dubious hopes.
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Old 2013-02-13, 17:22   Link #1339
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
That's all I needed to read. Typical elitist crap that wants to be taken seriously. Also, that is one crappy format they use to separate answers from questions.
Makes you wonder if there was a p.s in the original question saying, "please answer this question in the most douchebaggy and condescending manner possible". I mean I'm all for a little sarcasm but there's nothing about the question that strikes me as warranting that much added commentary. Why not just answer the question directly?

Anyway not sure why Horizon is being used as the secondary example considering the show has had two seasons in like the past year and the most recent one wrapped up quite recently. There's a huge difference between 4 years and 4 months after all.

@triple_R: actually in the case of Tamako Market its starting to look a little like the alternative might be just that,
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Old 2013-02-13, 17:47   Link #1340
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Originally Posted by Folenfant View Post

@triple_R: actually in the case of Tamako Market its starting to look a little like the alternative might be just that,
Tamako Market is doing poorly on Stalker Points? Interesting, if so.
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