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View Poll Results: Psycho-Pass - Episode 15 Rating
Perfect 10 25 36.76%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 24 35.29%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 15 22.06%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 5.88%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 68. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-02-13, 16:53   Link #181
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
I think many poor programmers just curl up in a foetal position and cry whenever someone says, "It's a simple one line if-statement". The technical aspect determines everything. Sorry, but you just described a very complex scenario.
Face scanning: I can understand.
Brain scanning: I can understand.
Recognize human shape (whatever that even means in programming terms!), then if shape has head,
It already needs to do that to know where the face is to scan it.

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then if brain scanning passes but face scanning fails, head looks like helmet,
Stop right there. Authorize stun.

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if person is holding hostage, er...too lazy, I give up, crash software .
If those programmers can't understand you sometimes need a bad solution now instead of no solution at all, then I've got no sympathy for them. Sure, there may be plenty of false positives (though nothing I've seen in early episodes inclines me to think they'd give a damn), but the important thing is to play for time until a better solution comes along. And to keep a lid on the helmets. Even if they can't be kept secret, they should not be allowed mass distribution.

And again, I don't know why you insist on using computers instead of just allowing them to stun (or beat up with their bare hands, or use improvised weapons) everyone first, and have their actions reviewed later with the understanding that helmet wearers are fair game for anything, but normal civilians are not.

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I don't know about the robot threat. It's possible it was scanning/reading the robot's brain/chip or whatever rather than scanning it optically (I inclined to believe that's the case). Also, it's government developed robots so they'd probably have the specs so they'd know if it's acting abnormally.
Of course. The robots programmed into being murder machines were broadcasting their identities and internal state to Sibyl in case an enforcer wanted to destroy them. Including the robot dog, which I'm sure is a completely off the shelf government model used to keep public parks free of squirrels. That's so much more plausible than having a good camera and the ability to interpret its input.
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Old 2013-02-13, 20:35   Link #182
Dengar
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The robot doesn't need to broadcast anything if the dominator works the way we think it does, so that argument is moot. The dogs were probably cyborgs, so they had organic brains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And again, I don't know why you insist on using computers instead of just allowing them to stun (or beat up with their bare hands, or use improvised weapons) everyone first, and have their actions reviewed later with the understanding that helmet wearers are fair game for anything, but normal civilians are not.
Are you implying you can simply talk to a computer and tell it what to do and it will magically hear it and automatically do it and magically have the ability to do so? Because as a programmer I find it rather funny that you want to make a computer do stuff... without using computers?


I will repeat this, since you completely ignored it:

You should find it strange that it takes so long to develop videogames. After all, the technology to make videogames already exists, right?

Last edited by Dengar; 2013-02-13 at 20:45.
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Old 2013-02-14, 16:11   Link #183
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
The robot doesn't need to broadcast anything if the dominator works the way we think it does, so that argument is moot.
And how do you think it works? You think it's basically blind, but can somehow sense and interpret the small electric signals inside an electronic brain - no matter what it's encased in?

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The dogs were probably cyborgs, so they had organic brains.



Are you implying you can simply talk to a computer and tell it what to do and it will magically hear it and automatically do it and magically have the ability to do so?
No, but I expect some measure of modularity in a system, that'd allow to reuse the existing functionality with minor tweaks to the logic.

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Because as a programmer
I'm a programmer too. While I have no experience with "fix this or society will meltdown. You have one hour." situations, I do know that sometimes emergencies arise, and that the rules are then different.

I know that the clean-up that comes afterward is a pain, but in this case, the point is for there to be an "afterward".

Admittedly, I do have experience with badly designed, badly documented code that nobody dares to touch.

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I find it rather funny that you want to make a computer do stuff... without using computers?
My point is that, while ideally, they'd be able to use drones and dominators against helmet wearers (and only them and the normal latent criminals), in a pinch they don't need them, or they don't need them to be that accurate. They have enforcers, which would have been enough if they'd tackled the problem early on. If recognizing helmets is too hard (which I still find hard to believe), then just replace the complicated algorithm that determines the suitability of a target with isShootable() { return true; }. If that still isn't acceptable, equip them with nailguns, cars, or whatever improvised weapon they can put their hands on. And have them, as Roger Rambo called it, bust heads.

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I will repeat this, since you completely ignored it:

You should find it strange that it takes so long to develop videogames. After all, the technology to make videogames already exists, right?
Completely different situations. Nothing urgent about video games, they each attempt to be somewhat novel (would you call a simple palette change a "new" game? Would you expect it to take as long to develop?), and there are plenty of imperatives that make extensive testing important.

By the way, do you think each and every security patch takes years to develop? Instead of, you know, hours or days? And we're talking about things that are even more constrained than what we have here. In normal IT, a security patch that breaks the application wouldn't be acceptable. Here, if they end up stunning a hockey team or something, it's a pretty acceptable collateral damage.
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Old 2013-02-14, 16:33   Link #184
Dengar
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And how do you think it works? You think it's basically blind, but can somehow sense and interpret the small electric signals inside an electronic brain - no matter what it's encased in?
It can read a human brain, why wouldn't it be able to read an electronic one?

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
No, but I expect some measure of modularity in a system, that'd allow to reuse the existing functionality with minor tweaks to the logic.
Except the "existing functionality" may not, uh, exist. Just assume for a second that those things aren't configured to recognize faces or even shapes. Someone would have to make it do that from scratch. I don't know how "current" face "recognition" software works, but no doubt it's complex, probably wasn't developed in a single day, and I'm unsure of the efficiency to do so with a moving target that isn't directly facing the camera.


Of course, I still wonder why I even NEED to think up why something just isn't possible when it's evident from the story that it isn't. If it were, they would've done it.
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Old 2013-02-14, 16:41   Link #185
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
It can read a human brain, why wouldn't it be able to read an electronic one?
We don't know precisely what it is they read or how. As far as I'm concerned, "It can read any kind of brain but is blind to the body it's in" sounds a bit too much like magic for the show.


Quote:
Except the "existing functionality" may not, uh, exist. Just assume for a second that those things aren't configured to recognize faces or even shapes. Someone would have to make it do that from scratch. I don't know how "current" face "recognition" software works, but no doubt it's complex, probably wasn't developed in a single day, and I'm unsure of the efficiency to do so with a moving target that isn't directly facing the camera.
But it can locate a brain and read it.


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Of course, I still wonder why I even NEED to think up why something just isn't possible when it's evident for the story that it isn't. If it were, they would've done it.
Because you want to insist there are good reasons it's not possible.
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Old 2013-02-15, 07:29   Link #186
Dengar
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
We don't know precisely what it is they read or how. As far as I'm concerned, "It can read any kind of brain but is blind to the body it's in" sounds a bit too much like magic for the show.
If you feel like reading the psycho-pass itself is magic then why are we even having this conversation? Since, if you think everything that happens this is magic, then OF COURSE the drones would then magically know how to recognize faces. After all, drones are magic, according to you, right? So it should just use magic!

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
But it can locate a brain and read it.
You don't need to point a dominator directly at a person's brain, so this point is moot.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Because you want to insist there are good reasons it's not possible.
I'm not the writer! I can't read their minds either! All I can do is speculate, and my speculation is pretty good if you ask me. You can't ask a motion sensor to suddenly do a retina scan. Or a thermometer to provide security footage.

Of course, if you're interested in a more 'real' reason, is because if you could magically upgrade your drones to bash everyone's head whenever they can't recognize a human face, then we wouldn't be having these riots or anything. Not to mention the ethical issues.
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Old 2013-02-17, 07:23   Link #187
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
If you feel like reading the psycho-pass itself is magic then why are we even having this conversation?
But that's the thing. The way it's been presented, the hue check uses several accurate captors to read various physiological clues. The PP adds greater intelligence and the kind of contextual information a big brother-esque government tool would have access to to give the CC. It has elements of "sufficiently advanced technology", and is probably an exaggeration over what it possible IRL (even in the future), but it's still solidly SF.

Reading the programming off my watch is a completely different task. Reading any kind of electronic brain, down to the states of all its semi-conductors, and building an accurate model of its behavior - to have that possible just because I used the "brain" in the previous sentence feels like the simplistic rule used in "magic". Like "believe and you can fly", or "only the true king can pull the sword", or "recite a certain formula to set someone on fire". Don't worry about how, it just works!

And for a machine to be able to do that and not recognize a robot when it sees it - that's just outlandish. Whatever emissions it uses to read the robot's "thoughts" would be distorted by the robot's chassis, so it'd have to know what it looks like to take it into account.

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Since, if you think everything that happens this is magic, then OF COURSE the drones would then magically know how to recognize faces. After all, drones are magic, according to you, right? So it should just use magic!
As I said, the drones, and Sibyl in general, don't use magic. They use cameras and other sensors. Which they can interpret with great accuracy.



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You don't need to point a dominator directly at a person's brain, so this point is moot.
That's my point. You just need to point it in the person's general direction and the Dominator does the rest because it's smart enough to recognize a head when it sees one.


Quote:
I'm not the writer! I can't read their minds either! All I can do is speculate, and my speculation is pretty good if you ask me. You can't ask a motion sensor to suddenly do a retina scan. Or a thermometer to provide security footage.
More like a super-efficient genetic code analyzer, which you can use to tell eye, skin, hair color, blood type, genetic diseases and so on... but can't use to determine gender. There's something there that just breaks suspension of disbelief.
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Old 2013-02-17, 12:20   Link #188
Dengar
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
That's my point. You just need to point it in the person's general direction and the Dominator does the rest because it's smart enough to recognize a head when it sees one.
I don't think it can recognize a person's head because the dominator has no camera.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
More like a super-efficient genetic code analyzer, which you can use to tell eye, skin, hair color, blood type, genetic diseases and so on... but can't use to determine gender. There's something there that just breaks suspension of disbelief.
Wrong analogy, a better analogy would be that a card reader can somehow know its owner's gender, which obviously doesn't make sense.
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Old 2013-03-04, 01:14   Link #189
4Tran
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Show, you haven't earned the right to name-drop writers and works like that, so quit it. Makishima's monologues are words-words-words. They're nowhere nearly as clever as the show thinks they are.

The PSB's response is somewhere between inadequate, laughable and irresponsible. If your entire force amounts to a couple of dozen investigators and enforcers, then you'd want to husband that force until they get reinforced. Sending them out in penny packets is beyond stupid.

I get what this episode was trying to get at, but it doesn't have enough verisimilitude to pull it off. I also the story a lot more when it was called "Die Hard with a Vengeance".
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Old 2013-03-17, 18:25   Link #190
Archon_Wing
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Despite the hilarious ease of bypassing the system, one can only imagine that people were conditioned to not even think of such things, because of fear of the consequences. I mean if you were to realize that a dominator was going to make you implode/explode that tends to affect matters, as well as the rather extensive preventive measures society has in place.

Makishima certainly views himself as a revolutionary, though it becomes more evident that any goals of noble revolution goes out the window with this episode. Imposing freedom on others isn't exactly freedom itself. It seems to me that he seems to be more of an opportunist that took advantage of people's insecurities in current society to really fulfill his agenda for chaos.
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