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Old 2013-02-13, 17:49   Link #1341
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
The implicit Star Wars/Haruhi comparison is a poor one because Star Wars is a completed narrative. I don't have a desire for more Star Wars for the same reason that I don't have any desire for more Shakugan no Shana - It's done. Nice, neat, and tidy, with a satisfying conclusion. I share the writer's dread at more Star Wars. It could very easily go off the rails and detract from the original (mind you, perhaps that isn't so important given what the Prequels themselves did ).

But the Haruhi anime does not have a satisfying conclusion, as of yet. Disappearance clearly points to more narrative yet to come, so it obviously doesn't work well as a conclusion.
Agreed. I somewhat fear that Madoka Magica might end up on the Star Wars path with the possibility of a 2-cour anime being hinted at. Madoka Magica had a very complete and satisfactory ending and it aired one year after the last Haruhi animated installment. Aniplex obviously has a very different approach to its cash cow franchise than Kadokawa.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
1) KyoAni can make a hit anime out of almost anything. It's not like the alternative to more Haruhi is a massive sales risk.
Out of the 15 or so major KyoAni productions, Munto TV, Nichijou, and Tamako Market are flops. "Almost anything" is getting progressively less true.
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Old 2013-02-13, 17:56   Link #1342
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Tamako's first video release isn't until March. Shouldn't it be given a fighting chance before being declared a failure?
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Old 2013-02-13, 18:37   Link #1343
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Tamako Market is doing poorly on Stalker Points? Interesting, if so.
Considering how some series like Jojo's had rather pathetic stalker points ranking, and yet dished out rank 2 with nearly 20K sales, I don't think it is any good to even think about it right now.
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Old 2013-02-13, 19:12   Link #1344
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Honestly I'd rather they ditch Haruhi for good. Not like I hate the show, but now that the studio is moving into original projects territory, I'd rather they keep at that and expand.

But it's strange that Kadokawa/Kyoani have yet to announce any project for 2013. Seems like nothing in Spring, and if something will air in the summer right about now is due time for disclosing it. So, considering the weird shit that happens whenever Haruhi is involved, I'd say there is a decent chance it's getting a sequel.
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Old 2013-02-13, 19:21   Link #1345
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Originally Posted by Warm Mist View Post
Honestly I'd rather they ditch Haruhi for good. Not like I hate the show, but now that the studio is moving into original projects territory, I'd rather they keep at that and expand.
Yeah, because the meaning of expansion is doing only one thing to the exclusion of all others...

What exactly would be wrong with a balanced approach that tries do something new every now and then but also respects and continues on with the properties that helped make KyoAni the popular and profitable studio that it is?
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Old 2013-02-13, 19:59   Link #1346
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If you think doing more Haruhi is by any means more progressive than keeping with original shows, I don't know what to tell you...

Nothing would be wrong, I was just stating my preferences. I just don't like sequels too much, and I don't see anything wrong with not doing any more Haruhi either.
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Old 2013-02-13, 20:22   Link #1347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warm Mist View Post
If you think doing more Haruhi is by any means more progressive than keeping with original shows, I don't know what to tell you...

Properly moving a narrative forward towards its completion is the very definition of "progressive".

Besides, what makes original shows more "progressive" than anime adaptations?

Was P.A. Works "regressive" in choosing to adapt Another? Since all they did before that was anime originals.

Even as someone who is glad to see anime originals be made, I don't see what "progressive" has to do with it.


The next Haruhi anime (if it happens) is not a "sequel" in the same sense that the third Madoka Magica movie is. The Madoka Magica TV series could stand perfectly well on its own. No more story needs to be told to have a complete narrative. That's not the case with the Haruhi anime to date.

The next Haruhi anime would be a continuation of the same broader, ongoing narrative.

Calling the next Haruhi anime a sequel is like calling the second Lord of the Rings movie a sequel. At some level, sure, it is. But it's most accurately a continuation of the same unfinished story.

Lord of the Rings fans would not have been pleased if the first movie was all there was to its movie adaptation. So nobody should be surprised that some Haruhi fans won't be pleased with the anime never going beyond where it's at now. And in my mind, there's something wrong with denying those fans a narrative that feels complete.


This isn't about "failure to move on" from Haruhi. I had no problems "moving on" from Shakugan no Shana or Clannad or Kanon. Because those have good, solid, complete narratives in anime format. Haruhi doesn't.
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Old 2013-02-13, 21:55   Link #1348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Properly moving a narrative forward towards its completion is the very definition of "progressive".
The thing is that the narrative already exists in written format and is available to anyone, they're just adapting it to moving pictures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Besides, what makes original shows more "progressive" than anime adaptations?
For me it's the fact that original shows give the relevant people involved (the director, scriptwriter and animators) the potential freedom to do and convey whatever they want. If Ishihara wants to keep with Haruhi I have no problems with it, it's his decision. But why is it so bad if he doesn't?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
This isn't about "failure to move on" from Haruhi. I had no problems "moving on" from Shakugan no Shana or Clannad or Kanon. Because those have good, solid, complete narratives in anime format. Haruhi doesn't.
So SnS or Key are easy to move on from because they have complete anime adaptions. Haruhi doesn't have a complete adaption, therefore I'm forced to infer from your post that the problem is exactly "failure to move on".

Besides everything else, the main purpose of adapting an on-going work has nothing to do with offering a complete narrative in most cases. If you take the Haruhi anime in isolation as a stand-alone story you're missing the fact that Kadokawa thinks of the anime as a glorified advertisement for the books and nothing more.
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Old 2013-02-13, 23:14   Link #1349
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Considering how some series like Jojo's had rather pathetic stalker points ranking, and yet dished out rank 2 with nearly 20K sales, I don't think it is any good to even think about it right now.
Jojo had about 13,000 stalker points while Tamako Market has only a tenth of that right now. I believe that Volume 1 of the latter has fallen off Amazon's top-100 Blu-ray list altogether. There's still about five weeks before it's release, but it's looking to sell only a fraction of what Hyouka or Chuunibyou sold.

I don't think that this will dissuade Kyoto Animation from further original projects. Their finances should still be good, and there are a lot of advantages over being restricted to adaptations. It just means that they'll be a lot more careful to craft a project with the potential of decent sales.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Properly moving a narrative forward towards its completion is the very definition of "progressive".

Besides, what makes original shows more "progressive" than anime adaptations?
When an anime studio makes an original show, they have all the say over how that show is produced, marketed, and its merchandising. This offers a huge amount of creative freedom over adapting a show. Generally, in the latter scenario, the companies financing the show will get all of those says, and the animators may end up getting forced to do whatever they're told. This seems to be the primary reason for the Endless Eight fiasco.

It's also natural for the more powerful, influential or talented people in the industry to make original works rather than adaptations.
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Old 2013-02-14, 00:22   Link #1350
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Originally Posted by Warm Mist View Post
The thing is that the narrative already exists in written format and is available to anyone, they're just adapting it to moving pictures.
Given your often expressed appreciation for animation for its own sake, I'm rather amazed that you downplay it to "just adapting it to moving pictures".

Animation brings things to life in a way that words on a page alone don't. That's part of the reason why animation is probably my favorite entertainment medium.


Quote:
For me it's the fact that original shows give the relevant people involved (the director, scriptwriter and animators) the potential freedom to do and convey whatever they want.
I saw plenty of directorial and animation creativity in both Haruhi and Hyouka.


Quote:
If Ishihara wants to keep with Haruhi I have no problems with it, it's his decision. But why is it so bad if he doesn't?
Because it would be very nice to see the narrative eventually completed in animated format. Just like for movie-goers who are also Lord of the Rings fans, it was very nice to see that story eventually completed in live-action film format.

Again, there's something to be said for taking a story that's strictly in words and bringing it to life in animation or live-action.


Quote:
Besides everything else, the main purpose of adapting an on-going work has nothing to do with offering a complete narrative in most cases. If you take the Haruhi anime in isolation as a stand-alone story you're missing the fact that Kadokawa thinks of the anime as a glorified advertisement for the books and nothing more.
No, no, I'm well-aware of what you're writing here. But it doesn't change the fact that I want to see the full Haruhi narrative (including some excellent characters that can still only be found in the novels themselves) to be brought to life. There's some great places left to go in the Haruhi anime if they choose to adapt more of the novels.


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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
When an anime studio makes an original show, they have all the say over how that show is produced, marketed, and its merchandising.
That also brings with it higher risk, though, doesn't it? If Tamako Market bombs that may well hit KyoAni harder than Nichijou bombing did.

I don't think it's good for an anime studio to put all their eggs in one basket - Be that basket "adaptations" or "anime originals".
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Old 2013-02-14, 00:32   Link #1351
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That also brings with it higher risk, though, doesn't it? If Tamako Market bombs that may well hit KyoAni harder than Nichijou bombing did.
Precisely. That's why most studios will make a bunch of adaptations to pay the bills until they can afford to make something original like Tamako Market. At the same time, if an anime studio is not part of the production committee, then they might not reap the financial rewards of even super-popular shows. It all depends on how the contract is setup.
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Old 2013-02-14, 01:31   Link #1352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Given your often expressed appreciation for animation for its own sake, I'm rather amazed that you downplay it to "just adapting it to moving pictures".

Animation brings things to life in a way that words on a page alone don't. That's part of the reason why animation is probably my favorite entertainment medium.
Well, my point against more Haruhi is that it would mean Kyoani does other things instead. I'm always going to be pleased if they continue to put out quality work and challenge themselves (technically), but I'd just prefer other (new) narratives, characters and ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I saw plenty of directorial and animation creativity in both Haruhi and Hyouka.
Indeed. Imagine what those directors and animators could be able to do if they aren't subjected to the restrictions of an adapted work!
I'm aware not many people will agree with this, but Tamako Market seems to me much more interesting and varied in the direction/creativity department compared to Yamada's previous effort K-On! (K-On!! is different due to the high amount of original content, but I see it as more restrained than TM either way).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That also brings with it higher risk, though, doesn't it? If Tamako Market bombs that may well hit KyoAni harder than Nichijou bombing did.

I don't think it's good for an anime studio to put all their eggs in one basket - Be that basket "adaptations" or "anime originals".
I'm not sure of this, and probably someone who is more into these details and actually knows japanese like ultimatemegax would have a better take on this issue, but it doesn't seem like Tamako Market was created with the intention of making it a big hit. Considering it was part of the same package as the more heavily marketed and audience-friendly Chuunibyou, it seems like a project to complete (not "fill", because I'm not being dismissive of the work put into TM) the 2-cour contract with TBS, and not the next big Kyoani thing. The producers that have worked with them clearly know how to make things sell, as evidenced by Haruhi, Lucky Star and K-On!, so I'd think not many expectations were placed into this, number-wise.
Hyouka seemed more like a big bet for Kadokawa, and maybe I could think that fell a bit short of expectations even if it's doing very well, but Tamako Market strikes me as a small project compared to the previous KyoanixTBS offering.
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Old 2013-02-14, 09:08   Link #1353
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I think with the successes Kyoto Animation has, they can afford an offseason or two. I mean after losing money with Nichijou, they dished out two franchises that sold well and the K-ON movie which was a huge box office hit. I'm pretty sure they're still confident with their moe skills.
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Old 2013-02-14, 10:30   Link #1354
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I think a healthy studio should be able to make good adaptions and original work. There is nothing wrong with a good adaption and doing adaptions does not mean you can't do original work too.

Also doing an adaption does not have to be restrictive. A lot of directors, animators put creativity in their adaptions (at least the best ones).

On another note while I am enjoying Tamako Market, it has to be the least risky original work Kyoani could do. Yeah don't get me wrong I am not disputing the fact that doing an original work takes risk but what they chose to do, well it's very typical Kyoani. I don't see anything amazingly original about it.
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Old 2013-02-14, 10:51   Link #1355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Jojo had about 13,000 stalker points while Tamako Market has only a tenth of that right now. I believe that Volume 1 of the latter has fallen off Amazon's top-100 Blu-ray list altogether. There's still about five weeks before it's release, but it's looking to sell only a fraction of what Hyouka or Chuunibyou sold.
Jojo stalker points were barely 5.6K approximately 1 month and half before its actual release on end january.
I took this series as an example of irrelevancy in speculating with stalker points that early.

While Tamako Market will obviously sell less than Hyouka and Chuunibyou if the trend stays as it is, I don't think the stalker points as of now are reliable at all.
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Old 2013-02-14, 13:45   Link #1356
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Originally Posted by ahelo View Post
I think with the successes Kyoto Animation has, they can afford an offseason or two. I mean after losing money with Nichijou, they dished out two franchises that sold well and the K-ON movie which was a huge box office hit. I'm pretty sure they're still confident with their moe skills.
If Kyoto Animation gets a portion of K-ON merchandise sales, then they're pretty much set forever. I read somewhere that K-ON products have sold something like 28 billion yen so far! Obviously, most of this won't go to the license holder, but that's up there in Evangelion territory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I think a healthy studio should be able to make good adaptions and original work. There is nothing wrong with a good adaption and doing adaptions does not mean you can't do original work too.

Also doing an adaption does not have to be restrictive. A lot of directors, animators put creativity in their adaptions (at least the best ones).
That's true enough, but mostly on a project to project basis. Some projects may have many different taskmasters, and the creative staff is forced to work within very strict guidlines. In other projects, there's a lot more freedom to do whatever the creative staff wants - Sengoku Collection is a good example of this.

I'd imagine that a successful studio like Kyoto Animation has more freedom of action, but there can still be projects where they'll get dictated to by the license holder. Haruhi is one of the most likely of these projects where Kadokawa is calling the shots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Jojo stalker points were barely 5.6K approximately 1 month and half before its actual release on end january.
I took this series as an example of irrelevancy in speculating with stalker points that early.

While Tamako Market will obviously sell less than Hyouka and Chuunibyou if the trend stays as it is, I don't think the stalker points as of now are reliable at all.
There may be some question on the accuracy of the rating, but it's still awfully useful for predictions. And it's ever more useful once we look at the general trendlines.

Tamako Market is only trending at about a quarter the rate of Jojo, and it's making very little impression in places like Amazon's top-100 at a time when Jojo was starting to make big gains. Arguably, the trend is an even more pessimistic indicator than the actual stalker points.
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Old 2013-02-14, 15:28   Link #1357
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
If Kyoto Animation gets a portion of K-ON merchandise sales, then they're pretty much set forever. I read somewhere that K-ON products have sold something like 28 billion yen so far! Obviously, most of this won't go to the license holder, but that's up there in Evangelion territory.
KyoAni sold and continues to sell merchandise from the K-On! franchise at their stores. They also have created figures from the first two EDs and SD figures from the movie ED that are only available through them. This is profit going straight to them rather than through royalty payments.

As for Tamako Market's sales, let's just say that the success of Chuunibyou is likely to cover any deficits that series creates. The only harm may be in future original franchises which may or may not get funding from Pony Canyon/TBS.
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Old 2013-02-15, 16:15   Link #1358
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Originally Posted by ultimatemegax View Post
KyoAni sold and continues to sell merchandise from the K-On! franchise at their stores. They also have created figures from the first two EDs and SD figures from the movie ED that are only available through them. This is profit going straight to them rather than through royalty payments.
That's not quite true. While yes, KyoAni will get a bigger cut of sales they do directly, they still have to pay royalties to the licence holder even if they are the authors of everything else but the brand name.
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Old 2013-02-15, 18:16   Link #1359
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That's not quite true. While yes, KyoAni will get a bigger cut of sales they do directly, they still have to pay royalties to the licence holder even if they are the authors of everything else but the brand name.
Which is what I was saying. They get the "store cut" from the KyoAni Shop! instead of payments as one of the members of the production committee, which would be higher and provide more immediate income. Of course they would have to pay the other members and original creators payments as you said.
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Old 2013-02-18, 19:23   Link #1360
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Ugh, this secret 2013 project is driving me nuts. I want news ASAP, they're killing me. If I throw any more money at my PC screen, I'm afraid I'll go poor. No search gives me news, none! Damn secrets.
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