AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Gundam

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-02-12, 12:17   Link #5901
Znozzy
Praise the sun!
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sweden
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
...which further reinforces the point that the Archangel and the Strike isn't just "one ship and one MS" you're going on about. It really shows that the EA is also willing to sacrifice a lot of their own men just to make sure it wasn't captured by ZAFT. You don't waste a lot of resources just so "one ship and one MS" can survive.
Honestly, Both sides wasted alot of effort until it landed on Earth, then the EA pretty much told the AA to go fuck itself until it reached alaska, and .. well, we all know the story after that, lol.

Honestly it pretty much points the same way for Zaft, the Zala squad was after it, but thats about it (Minus the random encounters of the Dinn guy and Andrew, but that was due to the AA interacting/running into squads, rather than Zaft chasing them)


Quote:
I am not really sure, but I think it was shown that Azrael also wanted to invade Orb right away, and it's not just because of one mass driver - there is its' highly advanced technology to speak of. Azrael basically told Orb "join up or we'll see your inaction to do so as betrayal/joining up with the Coordinators and we'll take over your country". When Uzumi did the "heroic sacrifice" it burnt down Orb effectively, rendering it useless - it allowed Uzumi to protect Orb's technological assets as well. Pretty much it destroyed the EA's chance of getting a free mass driver, and it also destroyed their chance to get their hands on Orb's superior technology. It just wasn't because the EA lost interest in Orb once the mass driver was destroyed.
Let me expend on what i meant in a earlier post, the main reason the EA invaded Orb was because of the mass driver and the facilities they had (Morgenroete, etc) that made the Astray series among others (going to disregard the Akatsuki, since it wasnt brought up until Destiny)

When Uzumi blew everything up, the EA had nothing of interest left in that country, hence Azrael biting his lips when he saw everything go poof.

The Astray series was built from stolen GAT-X data wasnt it? honestly, it doesnt make sense why Orbs technology would be higher than the EA's, if anything its the other way around since Orb couldnt replicate the Phase Shift technology

Other than that, i fully agree with what you wrote above.


Quote:
Also at the beginning of Destiny, Orb was in a position wherein the Junius Treaty even had specifically prohibited them in lending their military technological know-how to either ZAFT or the EA. This also points to Orb being a military power so powerful it can swing either side to victory in a war.
my opinion differs there, if anything, it's to prevent what happened in Seed (The EA getting mobile suits built at their facilities) and to maintain their neutral stance, hence why Cagalli travelled to PLANT to meet the chairman and well, bark at him.

Quote:
We were only shown bits of what Orb is like during invasion. We weren't given a chance to see how it is like without an imminent invasion. Partly thanks to its nonsensical ideology, Orb was never really shown to fully show its muscle. However even given these, Orb was not taken lightly in the sense that other countries will invade it just for teh lulz. Pretty much if that's the case, any country can go against Orb because of their "lacking" military resources, but we weren't given any of that during the entire run of the anime, or even in side materials.
See, " fully show its muscles " is what bothers me a bit, we did see them be able to withstand the first EA hit in Seed, but they took losses, after the second one they ran off to space and blew everything of interest up.

For their size, Orb has a powerful military, but it's still a really small country, it was Fuku's " Ideal japan " if i recall, either way, its a country of small islands, just like japan. their military is strong - but seeing how they are such a small country they can't outlast the EA in the end, it's like putting 100 highly trained marines with a full loadout against 1000 ww2 soldiers, the 100 highly trained marines would be able to put up a good fight, but in the end the ww2 soldiers would win due to pure manpower, See what i mean?


Quote:
Basically, this is the reason why Shinn hated the Athhas. it was more of them protecting the country's ideals rather than think of the consequences it will have and its effects on all the people who trusted in Orb. And also the fact that Orb was heavily implied that it can compete directly with ZAFT/EA in military technology, but they'd rather have it burned down than protect their citizens.
I actually liked that part, In Seed we saw Uzumi as someone who actually made sense - but in Destiny we found out what happened to the civilians (which Seed didnt show too well) and i actually loved that part.

Orb can compete with the technology, but not the numbers.
Znozzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-13, 01:15   Link #5902
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
Are you referring to where exactly? Their SEED Orb infiltration as spies?
I meant everything from when the Archangel entered Orb to when it left Orb.
Quote:
Except during that point, it was already at the end of the series.
I don't see how that would matter.
Quote:
Also we are arguing about how easy it is to take over Orb just for teh lulz, without the urgency of imminent invasion. It's funny how the series paints Orb as some kind of untouchable country (given the facts I have pointed out earlier and how it is implied), but gets easily overwhelmed in 2 - 3 episodes, max.
Orb is powerful, but not powerful enough to deter an attack from either the EA or ZAFT if given a reason. In SEED, that reason was the mass driver for the EA. In Destiny, it was Djibril for ZAFT.

The exception would be in the case of the Archangel, where Athrun realized that ZAFT didn't need to attack Orb to get what it wanted: the Archangel. But this depends on the options available and the type of leader who is in charge.
Quote:
SEED had everything going for Cagalli, heck, she was a heroine of that war. If any, it should give cause for people to support her, as well as being Uzumi's daughter. However, we didn't see Seirans doing anything politically noteworthy until they sided with the EA. Given the 2 year gap before Destiny, the Seirans could already have completely taken control of the Orb Union and would have already forced Cagalli to marry Yuna if they were so completely in power at that point. They still waited for 2 damn years to be in a position where they can easily tell Cagalli to accept their terms.
The Seirans can't take full control because the authority is shared between the ruling families.

As for marriage, we don't know what's going on there. Maybe they had to wait until Cagalli turns 18 to have the wedding.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-14, 15:28   Link #5903
Haak
Haters Gonna Hate
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
Spoiler for @ Znozzy:


Spoiler for @ monster:
__________________
Haak is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-14, 16:20   Link #5904
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
The fact that they're living in Orb should be more than enough indication for other nations. And even there is no indication Kira/Lacus wants to share it, that doesn't excuse Orb from trying. Like I said, the situation Orb is in, you'd think they'd bagger Kira/Lacus for eternity. And yet it wasn't even factored in once.
Cagalli wouldn't allow her brother and Lacus to be bothered, especially for the purpose of Orb deploying nuclear weapons. Beside, NJC was supposed to be banned by the peace treaty.
Quote:
They still thought only PLANT would be destroyed since they specifically rationalized that it would quickly bring an end to the war, hence why they named it Operation: Peacemaker.
Quote:
No, like I said, the reason MAD wasn't a factor when EA used nuclear weapons beforehand was because EA didn't believe mutually assured destruction could even happen, not because they didn't care.
That would be true if they had attacked all of PLANTs directly. The fact that they attacked Junius 7 and then Boaz first meant that they lost any element of surprise they might have had.

Your argument simply has no basis in the show. The EA simply no longer care about a possible MAD scenario the moment they decided that they wanted to annihilate the Coordinators and even used nuclear weapons to achieve that.
Quote:
It must have been if it would force the EA to stop nuclear attacks completely. The first response would typically be to try again, see how they did it and try and find a way to circumvent it. Instead, Jibril went through the effort of making an entirely new, ridiculously huge weapon just for that purpose before trying anything else.
Of course, because the purpose was to annihilate the PLANTs. Hence, the nuclear weapons and then the Requiem.
Quote:
This is different from Orb's situation. In this situation, Orb has just seen EA use a nuclear attack and will clearly be ready with it's own (assuming it did have nuclear weapons), so EA can't possibly hope for an attack without consequences.
Except Orb doesn't even have nuclear weapons. So, again, your argument simply has no basis.

And like I said, by attacking Boaz first, the PLANTs would also be ready.
Quote:
And now Orb knows it will ultimately end up winning and regain it's country back. If the distinction is irrelevant there then it'll be irrelevant here as well.
Except Orb doesn't want to be invaded again in the first place. So saying it's alright because when the war ends Orb will be free again doesn't cut it.

They want a better outcome than what happened in SEED.
Quote:
Ultimately Orb isn't (or rather shouldn't) be that stupid. They ought to be able to recognise that they prevented EA from getting what it wanted, they ought to be able to recognise what effect that would have on the EA and the ought to be able to recognise that means the EA will be less inclined to waste it's resources again. The fact that they were attacked the first time does not disprove any of this
The fact of the matter is none of that matters because what Orb saw was that their country was attacked and lost.
Quote:
Wait a minute. I asked you to explain why the bolded was relevant to what we're talking about since the point is only on Orb's perspective before the treaty and nothing more. And then you responded by saying "because Orb knows EA from SEED" as if the two points are somehow related.

Provided there are no other factors...

But you can at least recognise that the Destroy argument isn't relevant here right? I'm only pushing for an answer because I wanted to make sure I wouldn't get any beef about ignoring anything you've said. Don't bother responding to this if you don't want to.
Let me put it this way:

Orb knows the EA's character from SEED. That is why they have a reason to think that the EA is not a reasonable entity that could be easily deterred.

That's my point about Orb.

And then, if you don't believe that the EA is such an entity, my point to you about the EA is the Berlin example.

So the Berlin example is not about Orb. But it does further show the EA's character, and the EA's character is why Orb made it's decision.
Quote:
That's what we're arguing above. I'm just pointing out that the SEED invasion isn't complete proof EA can't be deterred and that other factors can make a difference. In your original point you were making it sound as if no other factors could possibly affect this which I took issue with.
It's not that the EA couldn't be deterred, it's that there is no indication that Orb had anything to deter the EA. That's my point all along.
Quote:
There's no way Orb could possibly believe ZAFT would believe that lie as Yzak stated. If you watch that scene, you'll see for yourself and that it's a group that knows Orb is messing with them and knowing full well they don't expect them to believe it.
Well, as you can see, they bothered going to Orb to find evidence of the Archangel being there, so it's still a gamble worth taking. The problem with the Seiran was that someone took a picture of them welcoming Djibril. So the lie in Destiny was easily debunked and so ZAFT proceeded to ignore Orb and attacked.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-14, 18:11   Link #5905
Znozzy
Praise the sun!
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sweden
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
[SPOILER=" @ Znozzy"]

Yes but EA didn't get anything out of it. They wasted all that time on nothing and what's more Kusanagi went on to factor in EA's defeat in SEED. Ultimately the costs outweighed the positives. They didn't know that at the time but now in Destiny they'd know that. At least, that would be Orb's perspective.
see, the cost for the EA was people, and a few grunts (which seems to be made out of a unlimited plot-number none of us know) and the benefit was a Mass driver, which they really needed, and Azrael wanted to try the Druggies out, so in the end, his druggies got some combat experience, and well, thats about it. i'm not trying to argue with you that the aftermath was good for the EA, but the economy and such has never been brought up in Seed, except the energy crisis.


Quote:
He thought it was incredibly unfortunate but he didn't regret the actual act.
of course he thought it was unfortunate, and it does make sense why he wouldnt regret it, since he didn't cause it.

Quote:
Exactly. ZAFT didn't think it was worth going to war with Orb and I made that exact same point to monster regarding the EA:
See, thats where i think you are wrong, Zala/Rau's squad =/= the entire Zaft army, it is one squad, not the entire army. Even if Rau wished for a full-scale invasion of Zaft i highly doubt the high command would agree too it.

Quote:
Most of what you said was irrelevant since it was referring to the actual incident when Archangel enters Orb's territory. I wasn't referring to that, and I don't think the fact that Orb deterred Athrun's ship in that incident is proof that Orb can deter the whole of ZAFT, nor did I ever make that point.
You said Orb detered Zaft when they clearly didn't in Destiny, and this entire conversation about Athrun's squad is regarding that incident that involved the AA, or what occurance are you refering to? because you are the one who said Orb detered Zaft back in Seed.

Quote:
I'm talking about after the incident, where they did have the option of bringing the rest of ZAFT after getting pissed at Orb's obvious lie. As you pointed out, ZAFT would be stupid to do that just because Orb were hardlined for one ship, which perfectly illustrates that there's more to deterrence than just power and Orb knew ZAFT wouldn't bother since it just wasn't worth it.
They had the option of bringing the rest of Zaft? i must've missed it, could you refresh my memory and tell me what episode it is? (no pun intended)

Quote:
If you look at the above point, you'll find that you just spent a good deal of time proving that what is "common sense" is actually relevant, despite all the obviously unrealistic qualities of mecha anime in general. In my opinion, it's jarring when characters or groups act completely devoid of logic and makes watching the rest of show difficult when the show is trying to hypocritically make characters sympathetic because of genuine emotions or conflicts grounded in reality.
Well, we have a excuse for that, it's called shitty writing trying to apply common sense to shitty writing doesnt make sense (Like Yuna's attitude jump, Cagalli's and Shinn's characters being turned into a trainwreck in Destiny

Quote:
Destiny did not show us that Seirans had their own ideals that were equal in strength, both legally and culturally to Orb as Uzumi's. That's my issue.

And Uzumi's ideals were clearly presented as Orbs in SEED. I already brought this up with monster and even he couldn't deny it.
Yeah,but as i said in a earlier post, Seed Orb isn't the same Orb as Destiny (which we've clearly all seen) Due to the Seirans.
Quote:
I'm afraid my point does still stand. Athrun is reasonable high in command to have a better grasp of what is good for ZAFT than someone like Yzak at the time of SEED.
No. Athrun is still a regular red coat with the same rank as Yzak, he might have more knowledge regarding what is happening in the high council (but then again, the relationship he and his father had suggests otherwise) But he holds no political power on his own. If anything, his wedding with Lacus was more a political one to please the public.


Quote:
I don't really know what your beef is because honestly, I've felt I've been quite patient even if i've maybe been a little blunt. But I think you'll find that I have been non-hostile all throughout my debate with you so I'm struggling to understand why you're acting like this. I mean monster hasn't been perfect either but for him I can at least recognise that it was a gradual process and since I've been just as exasperated, I'm not willing to blame him for anything (and even then he's been nowhere near this hostile despite everything). You however, just straight up decided to act hostile almost right from the get go.
I don't have any beef, but you flat out ignore certain parts of the show and take your own opinion/speculation as fact while disregarding things that the actual show state, even when being reminded by other forum members, as for your warning, if you can't hold a forum discussion without actually reading through what other people post and check up if your facts are right, the problem lies with you, not me, if anything, feel more than welcome to point out if im wrong by posting said episode number and i'll be more than happy to correct myself.
Znozzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-14, 19:57   Link #5906
Skye629
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
I should make a book out of this argument
Skye629 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-15, 03:55   Link #5907
Obelisk ze Tormentor
Black Steel Knight
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
I should make a book out of this argument
Nah, this is just a "warming up" before Destiny Remaster comes out. After it did, you can make a thick book out of the recent arguments in this thread .
__________________
Obelisk ze Tormentor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-15, 06:12   Link #5908
Skye629
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Nah, this is just a "warming up" before Destiny Remaster comes out. After it did, you can make a thick book out of the recent arguments in this thread .
Noted, Ill just take notes for now lol
Skye629 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-15, 15:10   Link #5909
Haak
Haters Gonna Hate
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
Spoiler for @ monster:


Spoiler for @ Znozzy:
__________________
Haak is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-15, 16:52   Link #5910
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I'm not really expecting Cagalli to even be let in on it but even so, that still doesn't excuse Orb from trying either.
How would she not know?
Quote:
As for the treaty, that just seems like another plot hole. After what Orb has been through, it seems to place a rather bizarre amount of faith in such treaties being held up.
It's not a plot hole when we're talking about idealistic Cagalli.
Quote:
Yeah, to be honest I think that's just another piece of evidence of how retarded they are, not that they knew they lost the element of surprise. My argument does have a basis. Like I said, they seemed pretty adamant it would end in a victory for them and that it would quickly end the war, hence why they called it Operation Peacemaker
Of course they knew. They just didn't care. Because not only do they want to end it quickly, they believe they can do it by using nuclear weapons. So again, MAD is never a factor here.
Quote:
Again, if MAD isn't a factor then the Neutron Stampeder shouldn't be enough to make them resort to a completely different type of weapon never tried before, without even trying nuclear weapons again.
Why would they continue using a weapon that ZAFT has a perfect counter for?
Quote:
In this point we were specifically assuming Orb has nuclear weapons and what would happen if they did. You were trying to make the point that even if Orb did have nuclear weapons, that wouldn't stop the EA from attacking. I'm going to go ahead and assume I've made my point clear. Your second point is already addressed above anyway.
Even then, my point about Boaz still stands. If the EA is willing to continue attacking ZAFT even when the EA knows that ZAFT also possesses the ability to use nuclear weapons AND after the EA has proven themselves willing to use nuclear weapons as well, then they won't have a problem attacking Orb even if Orb has nuclear weapons.

But either way, Orb doesn't have nuclear weapons, so that's that.
Quote:
But none of that matters because ultimately just like how Orb learned EA will try and take things by force, they learnt they can win in the end and that their country can preserve.

Your assuming that's what their perspective would be in order to prove that's what their perspective is. That's circular logic. It does not logically follow that Orb would definitely adopt this attitude. Now it can reasonably happen but I don't think that perspective is at all credible. Sorry, but all that doesn't suddenly mean they become despairing idiots that no longer has a grip on foreign policy despite a history of being carefully attuned to it.. As I pointed out in our previous argument, it should actually make them even more stoic and militaristic. This is not the perspective Orb would believably take.

Remember what you said as your original point? You admitted that my perspective on Orb could be true but only if Orb had a reason to believe it could deter the EA. Now your saying they wouldn't come to the conclusion they could deter the EA because this perspective prevents them from doing so. It's circular logic.
I'm not assuming anything. The point about Orb not wanting to be invaded again was brought up in the show itself.

It is you who are assuming that Orb should believe that they have could deter the EA when their last experience with the EA clearly show they couldn't.
Quote:
Make up your mind dude. Which one is it? Is the Berlin example about Orb or isn't it?
I don't know why it's so hard for you to get the connection. The Berlin example shows the EA's character. The EA's character is one reason why Orb would decide it might be better to join them rather than risk being invaded again.

Orb doesn't have to know about the Berlin example to know the EA's character, because they knew that from SEED. But the Berlin example is further demonstration to the audience of the EA's character.

Is this really so hard to understand?
Quote:
I'm pretty sure they went to find out where Archangel was specifically, so they knew where Archangel might leave, not to confirm if Archangel was actually there or not.
They do it for both. To know where it is and to have proof that it is there.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-16, 17:17   Link #5911
Haak
Haters Gonna Hate
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
Spoiler for @ monster:
__________________
Haak is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-16, 19:12   Link #5912
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
The same way she didn't know that Orbs treaty with the EA was a done deal from the beginning.
Except she did know beforehand. The treaty couldn't be made without her knowing. Orb joined the EA only after Cagalli had returned and failed to stop the treaty from being made. And that's when they suddenly turned hostile against the Minerva.
Quote:
Yes but Cagali isn't the sole force in Orbs government. And that's not just idealistic. It's plain as hell stupid and way too idealistic even for her as well. She said it herself back in SEED (I think episode 28) that in order for them to survive to maintain their ideals, they need to be strong military force. That doesn't suggest to me like she has any idealistic notions of what other nations are like.
Building mobile suits for defensive purpose is not the same thing as building nuclear weapons.
Quote:
The entire story made a point about how both sides think they could achieve peace by wiping out all their enemies, and was a recurrent theme in Episode 47 when Azarel used those nuclear warheads.
Exactly, thus MAD is not a factor.
Quote:
And please bear in mind that Azarel would have actually successfully destroyed PLANT with those missiles had Kira and Athrun not intervened, so regardless of what is logically, Azarel still had the element of surprise. There is no doubt that Azarel believed there would be no consequences.
If they could do that to the PLANTs, they could do that to anyone, including Orb.
Quote:
To test if it really is the perfect counter. And to see if they have that perfect counter on Earth as well.
Uh, it effectively destroyed all their nuclear weapons. I don't think they needed further testing.
Quote:
Yes, I am assuming that. Because that's what would make sense and would be in character. I've made this point already.

And why you think the point about Orb not wanting to be invaded again is somehow relevant is beyond me. I'm arguing that Orb has reason to believe they can deter the EA. By the very definition of deterrence, that would also prevent Orb from being invaded.
By definition, a deterrence is something that would prevent an attack. Since Orb has already been attacked by the EA, Orb doesn't have any reason to believe that they could deter the EA.
Quote:
What I'm trying to understand is how what is a demonstration to the audience way after the treaty, is relevant to Orb's character before the treaty.
The Berlin example is further showing to the audience what Orb already knew about the EA from SEED. In other words, it gives credence for Orb's decision to join the EA.
Quote:
If you watch the scene in Episode 25 again (about the 13th minute mark) you can easily tell that they aren't even remotely in doubt that Archangel is there or not. They specifically identify sneaking in to find it's whereabouts, but never say anything about confirming if it's actually there.
Athrun's words in the episode Land of Peace:

"We cannot take unprepared actions alone without conclusive evidence."

So while they're not in doubt that the Archangel is in Orb, they still wanted evidence.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-16, 21:09   Link #5913
amaterasu4
CAUSE I FEEEEEEEEEEEEEL!!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Shame Car
I don't know about you guys but this is one of the most formal and longest arguments I've ever seen in an anime forum. No insults, no calling out to the characters. The web would be a lot more entertaining if we took their example XD
amaterasu4 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-16, 22:15   Link #5914
Obelisk ze Tormentor
Black Steel Knight
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
Quote:
Originally Posted by amaterasu4 View Post
I don't know about you guys but this is one of the most formal and longest arguments I've ever seen in an anime forum. No insults, no calling out to the characters. The web would be a lot more entertaining if we took their example XD
I agree. The recent arguments here is almost in total contrast when compared to, say, arguments in Macross threads (especially Macross Frontier). The difference is almost like heaven and earth . Two or three regular posters in Macross threads often attack members who posted something opposite their opinions (aside from attacking each other). I witnessed and experienced it myself. Once I posted my opinion there, voila! instant personal attacks to me . Even the mods got fed up having to clean up the mess whenever that thread is brought up.

Anyway, keep up the healthy arguments, guys.
__________________
Obelisk ze Tormentor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-16, 22:57   Link #5915
kaito-kid
As I make you stop, think
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Europe - The Netherlands
Age: 24
You two are too know the ugly past of this subforum. This used to be the wild west, the most violent place on Animesuki, multiple never ending sh*t storms all the fu*king time! Now it's all civilized and sh*t, no fun.. Oh the good ol' days..

*continues to rock in my rocking chair*
__________________
kaito-kid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-16, 23:12   Link #5916
Obelisk ze Tormentor
Black Steel Knight
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaito-kid View Post
You two are too know the ugly past of this subforum. This used to be the wild west, the most violent place on Animesuki, multiple never ending sh*t storms all the fu*king time! Now it's all civilized and sh*t, no fun.. Oh the good ol' days..

*continues to rock in my rocking chair*
I can't speak for Amaterasu, but I'm well aware about the past of this thread. I occasionally kinda lurking lurking in it back then before becoming a member. That's why I said the recent arguments is getting better compared to, say, Macross Frontier thread where things are still being "uncivilized" even now (without mods' frequent intervention).
__________________
Obelisk ze Tormentor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-17, 13:29   Link #5917
Znozzy
Praise the sun!
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sweden
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
They never got that Mass Driver. It was destroyed.
I know they didn't, i mentioned that in a earlier post. I said that it was their reason for invading Orb in SEED along with Azrael wanting to test out the 3 druggies.

Quote:
And the fact that your pointing out more plot holes isn't going to make Orb's decision to join EA any less contrived. To me it just further shows that the the whole decision relies on you swallowing a lot of BS.
swallowing a lot of BS?
no, i simply accept the fact that the show took that route, even how retarded it may seem, arguing over the fact that it was a stupid choice. Which i've never denied that it was, i've only said that due to the Seirans being in charge, it makes more sense seeing how they are pretty much polar opposites to Uzumi (Instead of letting Orb burn to the ground to keep their ideals intact, they simply give up to the EA by abandoning Orb/Attha's Ideals)

Destiny itself is BS, complaining that dogpoop smells like shit when you sit near it by choice is a pretty dull statement, you know

Quote:
Hey you were the one who said he regretted it. When i said he didn't regret it, my point was that despite knowing what happened, he'd probably still do it again at that point (although of course he'd obviously try to limit the chaos but he'd still do it).
Let me rephrase then, he regretted the outcome of the battle(Heliopolis being destroyed) but not the battle itself, does that make it more clear?

Quote:
I'm a bit lost on what you're trying to say. I agree that the high command would not agree to a full scale invasion.
Honestly, i'm not quite sure what point you are trying to get across here, you stated Athrun was high in the chain of command, i simply stated he was a regular red-coat with more knowledge than the average grunt seeing how his father was on the council. Athrun himself holds no more political power than say, Yzak does.

Quote:
Like I said, in Episode 25 in SEED, Yzak and Athrun were arguing about whether to ignite a full scale conflict. At that point it's not just one ship any more. It clearly has the potential to be a whole lot more.
Episode 25:
Athrun:But as long as tha t's Orb's official response to the situation, sitting here and screaming our heads off saying its fale won't do us any good, will it?
Yzak:What?
Athrun:If we forced our way there, it would end up becoming a diplomatic matter involving our nation.
Yzak: I'd say thats a pretty coolheaded decision, Athrun.
Yzak: Oh, excuse me, Commander Zala *correcting himself
Dearka:So, arte you saying we should just accept what they say and leave?
Athrun: We'll have carpentaria apply some pressure, but if things aren't resolved quickly, we'll sneak in.

So, from that conversation, where do they debate a full-scale conquest? Zaft wouldnt attack Orb, as i said earlier, Orb was on good terms with Zaft (and has been until Destiny i belive) There was never any discussion about a full-scale Orb invasion in episode 25, only Yzak venting off his anger (like he usually does, he has a bad temper after all)

*Dearka is the one who wants them to " brute force " their way in, not Yzak, and he is quickly shot down by Athrun who reminds him that it wouldnt be like Heliopolis.



Quote:
So you admit it is out of character then? If it doesn't make sense and common sense doesn't apply and it's shitty writing, then I'd say it's very clearly out of character.
its shitty writing, but atleast it made up a reason for Orb to act the way it did, The Seirans. If they didn't exist, i'd say it was out of characters, but since they do and they are actually given a small amount of developing (Power hungry, thinking alot about their own survival) it does make sense to see Orb act the way it does when they are in power.

Quote:
But why is that? Like I said, Destiny does not show us that the Seirans ought to have the effect you're implying they did. But they do anyway. To me that's making Orb act out of character.
Exactly, they do, and that's all we have to go on. Somehow, they got a hand over Cagalli with the wedding, And with Cagalli gone Orb had noone to uphold their old ideals, except her Nana maybe?

Quote:
Athrun is definitely higher in command than Yzak. Yzak even specifically said it himself when Athrun shot down his argument "That's a cool headed approach. I guess that's why you're in command". Just because he wasn't in on everything his father was doing doesn't mean he wouldn't have the experience and upbringing that being the son of a the leader would give him. I never said he had to have political power. Just a better grasp on military affairs and perspective.
Having knowledge doesnt make you higher in command, Athrun was put in charge of the Zala squad because he was the one with the best leadership qualities amongst Rau's squad, Yzak even said it himself, " That's a cool headed approach " Athrun doesnt make rash decisions, Yzak does.
Quote:
You realise that everything you just said it something I could easily say to you right? So why aren't I? Because I'm sensible enough to realise it's not wise to come to conclusion about another person before the debate that determines whether you're right or not is finished.
I honestly don't care Raak, you are a sensible person, but you have forgotten/ignored some things about the show. like Athrun and Yzak arguing about invading orb when they clearly arent.
Quote:
And fyi, I have a much stronger reason to have a negative opinion about you. Can you guess why?
Honestly, i couldn't care less if you have a positive or negative opinion about me, this is a internet forum, we're discussion a show. If you feel like i've personally insulted you by telling you to stop being a sore loser because you've forgotten certain aspects of a show, then it's up to you to take offense or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I can't speak for Amaterasu, but I'm well aware about the past of this thread. I occasionally kinda lurking lurking in it back then before becoming a member. That's why I said the recent arguments is getting better compared to, say, Macross Frontier thread where things are still being "uncivilized" even now (without mods' frequent intervention).
We can fix it. I'm Sorry to interrupt up but Destiny had the best mobile suit battles of all time! And Athrun could clearly shoot down Kira if he tried. - Kirye west
Znozzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-17, 16:22   Link #5918
Haak
Haters Gonna Hate
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
Spoiler for monster:


Spoiler for Znozzy:
__________________
Haak is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-17, 23:22   Link #5919
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
She didn't know it was already a done deal. She didn't know the rest of politicians were conspiring against her and behind her back. Notice when Yuna welcomes Cagalli to Orb again and hints to his father how they've already planned to turn hostile to Minerva.
The only reason that could even happened was because she was not at Orb at the time. But it still doesn't matter because she was still made aware of the council's intention before they formally joined the EA.

It would be even harder to keep the NJC/nuclear weapons a secret from Cagalli if it involves Kira/Lacus.
Quote:
No it isn't, but my point still stands.
Your point doesn't stand because Cagalli accepting the need for Orb to have mobile suits doesn't mean that she would accept the use of nuclear weapons.
Quote:
Because EA didn't believe there would be any consequences, not because he didn't care about the consequences.
If they didn't think there would be any consequences from ZAFT, who has the NJC technology, why would they think there would be any consequences with Orb?
Quote:
The only reason they could do it to the PLANT was because of a plot hole and the fact that they acted quickly, within the same say. However several days had passed whilst Orb were debating whether to from a treaty with the EA. At that point it's clearly too different situations.
The Battle of Boaz happened 3 days before the second Battle of Jachin Due.

So, again, your argument is not supported by the show.
Quote:
Just because it managed to stop an attack once, doesn't mean it's invincible.
It's a weapon, so it doesn't have to be invincible. It just has to be effective.
Quote:
But no, let's jump straight ahead to a completely new gigantic and untested weapon that's going to spend loads of time to build. Makes perfect sense.
It makes perfect Gundam sense.
Quote:
And I already made a very clear point that just because Orb couldn't deter EA once does not automatically mean Orb can never deter the EA thereafter. It does not logically follow. There are other factors, and you yourself agreed that other factors change things..
Sure, but that's my point from the beginning: There is NO indication that Orb had gained anything in the 2 years after SEED that would deter the EA.

So what factors would change things? You can't just say, oh, the EA didn't get anything last time, so now they won't want to attack. That's just wishful thinking. What does Orb actually have now that they could deter an attack when they could not 2 years ago?
Quote:
And how is that relevant to whether or not Orb was acting out of character or not, when Orb isn't going to know about that credence until later?
It's relevant by showing to us, the audience, that the EA in Destiny is the same as the EA in SEED.

Thus, by knowing about the EA from SEED, it is enough for Orb to reach the same conclusion: That Orb would be risking an attack if they don't cooperate.

And with that conclusion, it is not out of character for a Seiran-led Orb to decide to join rather than fight the EA.
Quote:
Conclusive evidence, but not for them. It's pretty obvious from their conversation they don't need it.

It's for the masses. For everyone else.
Of course, we're talking about ZAFT here.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-18, 03:19   Link #5920
Znozzy
Praise the sun!
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sweden
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post

Well I don't recall that ever being said but I can accept that as a possible Pro. But still a bit of battle experience for his druggies shouldn't have made the whole thing worth it.
No, the mass driver was the main reason(Atleast for the EA), and testing the druggies out being a secondary one.

Quote:
Then what exactly is your problem with me saying that it was out of character and bad writing?
nothing at all? i'm simply viewing it from another side.

Quote:
Destiny had plenty of flaws but ultimately i didn't think it was any more BS than SEED. So sorry, but I think you've completely misunderstood where I was coming from the entire time.
I can agree with me misunderstanding where you are coming from, but honestly you've made me more confused the more we've actually discussed this.
@Destiny, Honestly, Seed was a fine show on its own, but then Destiny came and pretty much 180'd several characters, Orb included (which i'm sure you can agree on) with the introduction of the Seirans, up until Destiny Orb seemed like a stable country with a stable parliament.

Quote:
That's fair enough. But the fact that he'd do it again except with trying to limit the causalities also means that he'd be willing to invade Orb under the same reasoning.
No, as Athrun said in Episode 25 of SEED, Heliopolis was different, meaning Orb wouldn't be handled in the same way.

Quote:
I wasn't talking about Athrun here. I was pointing out that your point about how ZAFT wouldn't invade Orb rests on the exact same reasoning I made to monster.
Sorry, didn't read what you wrote to monster, my apologies

Quote:
And what do you think the diplomatic matter could lead to? If Athrun and his team fight Orb then the rest of ZAFT will be forced into attacking Orb as well. And if Orb is a nation that ZAFT could actually crush so easily, why should it be a problem?
If anything, less friendly dealings with Orb, as i said earlier and the show upholds, Orb and Zaft are on good terms in SEED. A invasion due to one ship and one mobile suit is highly unlikely, Zaft in SEED was shown to make good decisions, unlike the EA.

Quote:
Both of them wanted to.
No, Yzak was pissed at the official response Orb gave, he didn't suggest invading, as shown in episode 25, he was simply venting like he usually does when he is upset.

Quote:
Except ultimately it doesn't and I've already made my point very clear on this. The Seirans simply do not have as much legal and cultural influence over Orb as you implied they had to in order for it to make sense.
i'm not implying, the show did.


Quote:
So you still admit it's out of character?
For Orb in SEED, yes, for Orb in Destiny, no.

Quote:
Yzak specifically stated he was higher in Command...
If you mean Athrun, yes, Athrun was higher in command at the time since he was the squad leader.

Quote:
Again, I can make the exact same points myself. Do you want me to be an arsehole about it or do you want me to respond to you like an adult? If it's the latter you're going to have to start caring whether you like it or not.
Actually, the responsibility lies with you to stop trying to offend me...
Adult's let things go, you are the one that keeps bringing it up now, i've moved past it, have you?
Znozzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
mecha

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:26.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
We use Silk.