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Old 2013-02-14, 17:40   Link #12101
Wolfenstein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
In that case it's safe say Zen is the type who doesn't like to rely on his skills for long. It happened with Parasite Seeing, he only used it for really important matters. Taking that into account it's understandable why he wouldn't rely on Devil Style anymore after he used it to achieve the goal with which he really needed the skill.

And again is gonna be the same with the Contradictory Conjuction Style, he's only using it only one time and once more for one really important goal.
Sounds fair to say. And I kinda like that. It's as if his abilities truly represent the character he's become.

Devil Style in that fate-fucking way, Contradictory Conjunction in his extraordinarily normal ability to communicate and understand your fellow humans, and Model Zenkichi in the understanding of one's own limits(Hmm, I feel an Itachi reference here).

Sorta deep, when you think about it.

Edit:

I can't be the only one who thought of this;

Spoiler:


"Come on! Beat down that evildoer who disturbed our public morals, Hitoyoshi-kun!"

"You stood up! Go! It's morphing time!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Wt6XlVob_E
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Last edited by Wolfenstein; 2013-02-14 at 17:58.
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Old 2013-02-14, 22:03   Link #12102
Last Carpet
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Joutou is lisping again, good I liked that about her. Hope she survives in the end.

Can't help but notice that the Contradictory Conjunction Style focuses relies on using the word "therefore" (dakarakoso)

And that word is similar to Kei's catchphase "So I'll kill you" (Dakara Korosu)


Hmmmm...............
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Old 2013-02-14, 22:11   Link #12103
Wolfenstein
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More proof for Zen x Kei.

Regardless, It's interesting to note that Zenkichi was hearing the words of his friends while he was dead, but couldn't recognize the voices.
After, he suffered an auditory hallucination like the one while he was dead, where his friends talked about the current situation, but could recognize the voices.

I wonder the meaning of this...
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Old 2013-02-15, 01:00   Link #12104
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
While Skills are probablu manifestations, that seems to be limited to inate skills, at this point we have several characters who have acquired skills with no real personality change or signifcant effects, Medaka has acquired dozens Hinokage has had his changed, Kumagawa's acquired another one etc. Zenkichi could have had any skill he wanted, and Aijimu implied he had no limit meaning his personality wasn't limiting his choice. Minus' are more strongly linked to personality the story seems to imply with plus a much weaker link if at all. The only plus that was implied to be personality based was also stated to be the closest one to that of a minus.
Um... Hinokage did change his personality. He changed from "the guy who doesn't care if people notice him" to "the guy who loves it when people people rely on him". Mister Unknown became Theme Song. It just happened in a way indistinguishable from character development. But that's exactly the point: changing skills is a signal of character development. There's no difference, and to try and draw a difference is missing the whole point.

Medaka's learned dozens of skills, yes. But she's also changed her personality many times over. She went from a complete pacifist who wouldn't even dodge attacks to a battle-crazy berserker and everything in between. Her entire character arc is that she didn't know who she wanted to be and she keeps imitating people or following their advice. They've made this clear from the very first arc. Thus, it only makes sense that she can use everyone else's skills. Using everyone else's skills is simply who she is.

Kumagawa got a new skill. So? He also got a renewed burst of motivation. Ajimu told him that maybe wanting to win and being able to win are the same thing, something he's never believed. Did he really take that to heart? I don't know. "Unskilled" is something that suits the reformed Kumagawa anyway though.

Zenkichi could have any skill he wanted. As in, he could only pick skills he would want. His available options are limited by his personality. The skills he receives are only those that come from his personality.
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Old 2013-02-15, 01:28   Link #12105
Lupus753
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Um... Hinokage did change his personality. He changed from "the guy who doesn't care if people notice him" to "the guy who loves it when people people rely on him". Mister Unknown became Theme Song. It just happened in a way indistinguishable from character development. But that's exactly the point: changing skills is a signal of character development. There's no difference, and to try and draw a difference is missing the whole point.

Medaka's learned dozens of skills, yes. But she's also changed her personality many times over. She went from a complete pacifist who wouldn't even dodge attacks to a battle-crazy berserker and everything in between. Her entire character arc is that she didn't know who she wanted to be and she keeps imitating people or following their advice. They've made this clear from the very first arc. Thus, it only makes sense that she can use everyone else's skills. Using everyone else's skills is simply who she is.

Kumagawa got a new skill. So? He also got a renewed burst of motivation. Ajimu told him that maybe wanting to win and being able to win are the same thing, something he's never believed. Did he really take that to heart? I don't know. "Unskilled" is something that suits the reformed Kumagawa anyway though.

Zenkichi could have any skill he wanted. As in, he could only pick skills he would want. His available options are limited by his personality. The skills he receives are only those that come from his personality.
Regarding Medaka, at first I was frustrated at how inconsistent her characterization was. Or, rather, she would change facets of her personality at the drop of a hat, with minimal - if any - justification. After reading your theory -- yeah, I still think her characterization was handled badly and that your theory is grasping at straws.

Likewise, you say that the skill-switching is indistinguishable from character development. If that's the case, I'd say it's just character development and that theory of yours is trying to justify things. Unless the story explicitly says otherwise, that's the only way I can see it.
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Old 2013-02-15, 01:36   Link #12106
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Given, Lupus, that Ajimu has stated that Devil Style was a "personal skill", I think you might be accurate.

It is probable to read that and see a weak attempt at character development. Though, to be honest, using skills to induce change is really cheap in and of it'self if the skill isn't the product of the change, like with Devil Style, in my honest opinion. But I know that didn't happen often in Medaka Box. Most of the time the change in skill was a product of the inner change it'self.
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Old 2013-02-15, 01:44   Link #12107
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Yeah, there are plenty of throwaway characters like those in GLK who seem to have completely random skills, but it's precisely because they're throwaway characters that it's hard to say that they don't have anything to do with their personality.
The other characters who have Skills all introduce them as "this is my Abnormality" or "this is my Minus".
The GLK characters don't do this... although it's possible that they are simply unaware of the differences between the two, as I doubt every Skill holder was involved in the Hakoniwa General Hospital's program.
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Old 2013-02-15, 01:52   Link #12108
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Should I know what GLK stands for? People keep throwing it around a lot. What does it mean?
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Old 2013-02-15, 01:54   Link #12109
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Good Loser Kumagawa.
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Old 2013-02-15, 03:06   Link #12110
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Lupus753 View Post
Regarding Medaka, at first I was frustrated at how inconsistent her characterization was. Or, rather, she would change facets of her personality at the drop of a hat, with minimal - if any - justification. After reading your theory -- yeah, I still think her characterization was handled badly and that your theory is grasping at straws.
I'm not really sure why it matters whether or not you like Medaka's characterization? I'm not saying it's good, or even that it wasn't made up after the fact as a retcon, but that's just how it is. In the initial arc they made a running joke about her standing behind people imitating them which they then turned into evidence of her uncomfortableness with acting like a normal person. Then it later turns out that her skill is literally to imitate people (and improve on it, but whatever). They also made 2 big plot points about how her entire personality came from what Zenkichi told her when she was 2. I think you have to be in denial to say that's not her character arc.

Feel free to hate her, hate the writer, whatever. That's not my problem. My problem is when people don't actually pay attention. This isn't subtle. Medaka Box is not a subtle series.

Quote:
Likewise, you say that the skill-switching is indistinguishable from character development. If that's the case, I'd say it's just character development and that theory of yours is trying to justify things. Unless the story explicitly says otherwise, that's the only way I can see it.
Justify? What? The narration tells as that skills are personalities. Is this really a theory? The author flat-out told us it was true. That's just a fact. We can go back and look at earlier development to see whether or not it seems consistent, and I don't think it is since a lot of early Abnormalities weren't even given names (what the heck is Unzen's skill?), but that doesn't change the fact that the narrator told us that skills were personalities and that Real Eater changes personalities.

Me explaining what the series is blatantly telling us isn't an excuse for bad writing. Bad writing is bad writing, it doesn't matter what I say about it. You seriously think only good writing can be talked about or analyzed?
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Old 2013-02-15, 03:12   Link #12111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
The other characters who have Skills all introduce them as "this is my Abnormality" or "this is my Minus".
The GLK characters don't do this... although it's possible that they are simply unaware of the differences between the two, as I doubt every Skill holder was involved in the Hakoniwa General Hospital's program.
GLK was written after they stopped distinguishing Abnormalities and Minuses. Which is basically when Ajimu came in and told us she had quadrillions of both. Aka's "Five Forks" is similarly introduced as merely a skill, although the characters attempt to speculate on whether it's Plus or Minus. Ajimu's "thesis" though was that the difference didn't matter. To her anyway.
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Old 2013-02-15, 03:26   Link #12112
Lupus753
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
I'm not really sure why it matters whether or not you like Medaka's characterization? I'm not saying it's good, or even that it wasn't made up after the fact as a retcon, but that's just how it is. In the initial arc they made a running joke about her standing behind people imitating them which they then turned into evidence of her uncomfortableness with acting like a normal person. Then it later turns out that her skill is literally to imitate people (and improve on it, but whatever). They also made 2 big plot points about how her entire personality came from what Zenkichi told her when she was 2. I think you have to be in denial to say that's not her character arc.

Feel free to hate her, hate the writer, whatever. That's not my problem. My problem is when people don't actually pay attention. This isn't subtle. Medaka Box is not a subtle series.
I never was in denial of any of that. I remember it pretty clearly, in fact. Perhaps I interpreted your statement as saying there was no retcon, or...I don't know. At least it's good to see someone who doesn't interpret blatant retcons as "subtlety".

Quote:
Justify? What? The narration tells as that skills are personalities. Is this really a theory? The author flat-out told us it was true. That's just a fact. We can go back and look at earlier development to see whether or not it seems consistent, and I don't think it is since a lot of early Abnormalities weren't even given names (what the heck is Unzen's skill?), but that doesn't change the fact that the narrator told us that skills were personalities and that Real Eater changes personalities.

Me explaining what the series is blatantly telling us isn't an excuse for bad writing. Bad writing is bad writing, it doesn't matter what I say about it. You seriously think only good writing can be talked about or analyzed?
I...what...something...that..... I never said that only good writing could be justified. I have no idea how anyone could come to that conclusion. I just said that I felt like you came up with an interpretation with little evidence. I never said that you couldn't analyze it.

Could you specify when the story explicitly says that skills = personalities.
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Old 2013-02-15, 03:30   Link #12113
Wolfenstein
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For Lupus:

Spoiler:


To be fair, Ajimu also tells us that Devil Style is a "personal skill", whatever that is. Maybe Nishio just isn't big on consistancy?
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Old 2013-02-15, 03:36   Link #12114
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
To be fair, Ajimu also tells us that Devil Style is a "personal skill", whatever that is. Maybe Nishio just isn't big on consistancy?
I think you're reading way too much into the word "personal". It's like "my personal wallet". It doesn't really mean anything special about my wallet, just that no one else uses it. As opposed to a borrowed skill like Parasite Seeing.
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Old 2013-02-15, 03:38   Link #12115
Kaisos Erranon
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All this talk of Skills makes me remember that we're probably never going to get an explanation of how and why Bami has both a Minus and an Abnormality.
Sad.
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Old 2013-02-15, 03:38   Link #12116
Lupus753
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@Wolf: Oh, yeah. That page. It really confused me when I first encountered it.

[Lupus starts reading page]

"Wait, how is changing someone's supernatural skill 'disgusting'?"

[Reads rest of page]

"HOW IS A SKILL A PERSONALITY?!"

I tell ya, it came out of nowhere for me.
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Old 2013-02-15, 03:47   Link #12117
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The page also tells us that Iihiko posseses a skill or skills. Interesting thought, huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste
I think you're reading way too much into the word "personal". It's like "my personal wallet". It doesn't really mean anything special about my wallet, just that no one else uses it. As opposed to a borrowed skill like Parasite Seeing.
Well, in a manga which abuses the word "personality", before the dialogue in chapter 176, I thought it was pretty fitting, given that Devil Style obviously represented Zenkichi's personality and was analogus to his speech and whatnot.

But alright. Even if it was that type of "personal" the newest narration overshadows it anyways.
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Old 2013-02-15, 03:57   Link #12118
Kaisos Erranon
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Iihiko transcends the concept of Skills, so I kind of doubt he can use them even if the original body he's possessing was a Skill holder.
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Old 2013-02-15, 04:01   Link #12119
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Maybe his skills themselves are also of a higher dimension of power? You know, kinda like the Bleach thing.

I mean, the page does say they are even stronger than Real Eater...

It does make you realize just how broken Contradictory Conjunction is, however. Even Yuzuhira with a shallow understanding of Iihiko and Shiranui was already able to do far more to the fusion than Medaka's Vibratory End Mode could even hope to do.

I guess it's fitting to have such power with such a glaring weakness to them.
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Old 2013-02-15, 04:16   Link #12120
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It's not that we haven't seen skills that are equally broken. Iihiko is just arbitrarily immune to skills for whatever reason (Immune to personalities? What the hell does that even mean?).
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