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Old 2013-02-15, 12:00   Link #81
Ithekro
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Pretty much any award based on Television is like that since there are plenty of shows that can last for years.
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Old 2013-02-15, 12:15   Link #82
Reckoner
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You are talking about shows with multiple seasons and they award based on the season. Those season runs are complete. That is not comparable at all, unless we are talking about something like say Gintama.
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Old 2013-02-15, 13:01   Link #83
vaden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I wonder if there's any way we could have this work like voting in ISML?

In other words, just select a radio button per selection. Very quick and easy.
Making that sort of site is easy. The problem is, like I told Seiji when he mentioned it, animesuki would have to provide an open authentication server so that we can (securely) assert: (a) people are members of the site, (b) every member gets only 1 vote (c) no funny business is happening (people are creating multiple accounts with no posts), etc.

(I do like reading people's thoughts on things though, that come along with the votes, especially in nominations)
One simple solution would be to have an off-site script that generates properly formatted ballots (or even just a ballot ID number), which can then be copy-pasted into a post. It's a bit less convenient, but it means not having to deal with authentication at all.
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Old 2013-02-15, 13:12   Link #84
felix
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Yeah Vaden, that's the same conclusion I've reached. We'll hopefully have one up by next year.




With regard to the whole "ongoing category" discussion...

Just to clear up some confusion: The Ongoing category is for awarding ALL incomplete shows. NOT autumn shows, NOT shows that are in the cour the contest is in, ALL ongoing shows (they could have started a decade ago for what it's worth). If it just happens that everything sucks compared to these pesky 1-cour shows then so be it. Clearly size doesn't matter, but we already knew this from all the other categories.

Remember if you don't like the voting options in a category you can also look at the nomination results for the bigger picture.

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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
What is the point of giving exposure to something that we don't know will be good in the end?
We're not claiming it will be good in the end, the award is "best ONGOING" not "NEXT best TV/Movie/etc." It's not good in the end we're awarding in the category, but "good up to this moment." I'm all for changing the category name if there's this misconception that it's giving them more credit then they deserve; but I feel "best ongoing" is pretty self explanatory.

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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
What if we mislead people into a series that ends out turning bad and no one likes anymore (Think Another for example)? The award holds no weight.
One of the points of the category is to get people to start following some of the current shows (I know I have), their endings have nothing to do with anything; in fact them ending might sway the votes since it's better for the category if we get "shows that are enjoyable to follow" instead of "shows with payoff at the end" (since the payoff ones are a gamble vote). For what it's worth entire franchises can eventually flop hard, it's all just a matter of how far into the future you want to look. Since sometimes the journey is more important then how shitty the ending was the destination, it makes sense to have this category even if we don't consider the whole "award incompleteness argument" for which it was conceived. Also there are some shows such as say Minami-ke where "the ending" just doesn't apply. There's is no "ending" since a series like that is episodic and the over arching plot is of little concern. For shows like that even if they start sucking from this point forward it really doesn't matter, it's well worth it to watch them to this point and stop. Also in the case of shows like that it wouldn't be completely untrue to claim our format is very disadvantageous for them if they have to be judged after an entire year.

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I thought people wanted to give exposure to multi cour series like Hunter x Hunter or Space Brothers, not 2 cour Fall shows like SSY and Psycho Pass. It didn't even serve the purpose people wanted it to.
What the fanboys wanted to advertised is of no concern. People complained about how current shows are shafted and how the contest is incomplete, so we made the ongoing category. It's just one category and more of a honorable mention, but it serves to allow for any show to be represented. Altering the category to serve some niche doesn't make sense, if that niche is noteworthy then it's best represented by making a genre for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner
I have never seen a professional award ceremony (grammies, oscars, etc.) that ever awarded anything to an incomplete work.
Do we have their problems? Do they have our problems? So then... why do we need their problems? Looking at them for inspiration is good enough. Some of the contests you're thinking of are deeply rooted in tradition. Even if they thought they should change, change is very hard for them. Emulating their handicap isn't going to solve anything.
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Old 2013-02-15, 13:13   Link #85
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
^

I have never seen a professional award ceremony (grammies, oscars, etc.) that ever awarded anything to an incomplete work.

What is the point of giving exposure to something that we don't know will be good in the end? What if we mislead people into a series that ends out turning bad and no one likes anymore (Think Another for example)? The award holds no weight. I thought people wanted to give exposure to multi cour series like Hunter x Hunter or Space Brothers, not 2 cour Fall shows like SSY and Psycho Pass. It didn't even serve the purpose people wanted it to.
1) Since when are these professional awards. These are fan awards.

2) They did serve a purpose because they tell us about a good series that started in 2012 and has not finished yet.

Although it's not always the case often shows that started one year with 2 or more cours but end in the first cour of the next year are at a disadvantage because people end up forgetting about them.

If there are stronger shows than Psycho Pass & Shin Sekai Yori in 2013 the awards next year will reflect that, if not they will win awards in 2013. I don't really see what the big deal is that there is one award given to a show that is ongoing. The very nature of the award tells us we aren't awarding it for being complete but awarding it for the fact that while it is not finished we are enjoying this show very much.

Also no one ever said the award is only for shows that have no ending in sight. If people wanted to vote for those shows, obviously they are eligible but just because people didn't does not mean this award didn't serve a purpose.
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Old 2013-02-15, 13:18   Link #86
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2) They did serve a purpose because they tell us about a good series that started in 2012 and has not finished yet.
It's ALL, not just 2012. God we really need to change the name.
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Old 2013-02-15, 13:54   Link #87
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Originally Posted by felix View Post
We're not claiming it will be good in the end, the award is "best ONGOING" not "NEXT best TV/Movie/etc." It's not good in the end we're awarding in the category, but "good up to this moment." I'm all for changing the category name if there's this misconception that it's giving them more credit then they deserve; but I feel "best ongoing" is pretty self explanatory.
These awards I thought were a means of spreading the word about notable series that we think deserve exposure. If the series suddenly turns for the worse or becomes less notable than other ongoing shows right after the awards, then we just awarded something that didn't deserve it. This makes no sense to me.

People are just being impatient and there is absolutely no reason we should be tailoring to this.

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Originally Posted by felix View Post
One of the points of the category is to get people to start following some of the current shows (I know I have), their endings have nothing to do with anything; in fact them ending might sway the votes since it's better for the category if we get "shows that are enjoyable to follow" instead of "shows with payoff at the end" (since the payoff ones are a gamble vote). For what it's worth entire franchises can eventually flop hard, it's all just a matter of how far into the future you want to look. Since sometimes the journey is more important then how shitty the ending was the destination, it makes sense to have this category even if we don't consider the whole "award incompleteness argument" for which it was conceived. Also there are some shows such as say Minami-ke where "the ending" just doesn't apply. There's is no "ending" since a series like that is episodic and the over arching plot is of little concern. For shows like that even if they start sucking from this point forward it really doesn't matter, it's well worth it to watch them to this point and stop. Also in the case of shows like that it wouldn't be completely untrue to claim our format is very disadvantageous for them if they have to be judged after an entire year.
We're here to give awards to series that we feel represent the best of the best. Best of the ongoing series offers what distinguishment? Say what you will, but this category could almost be named "What ongoing Fall/Winter show has been the best for 20 or 8 episodes?" Great, so keep watching these series until this point and then after that we don't know. What kind of award is that? We shouldn't be awarding incomplete jobs like this. Our Minami-Ke's of the anime world don't matter. Episodic series still need to show that they can entertain all throughout to earn any praise.

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Originally Posted by felix View Post
What the fanboys wanted to advertised is of no concern. People complained about how current shows are shafted and how the contest is incomplete, so we made the ongoing category. It's just one category and more of a honorable mention, but it serves to allow for any show to be represented. Altering the category to serve some niche doesn't make sense, if that niche is noteworthy then it's best represented by making a genre for it.
Yeah except the main examples brought up were shows like Space Brothers and Hunter x Hunter. Doesn't seem like this award helped them out too much eh? It seems that this category is just going to be dominated by 1-2 cour shows from winter/fall. That isn't really what I call a good award. Look at Chihayafuru. People didn't forget about it from last year and it managed to upset Fate/Zero this year for best of the year. People need to stop complaining about anything getted shafted. If the series is good enough, people will remember it and vote for it in the appropriate year.

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Originally Posted by felix View Post
Do we have their problems? Do they have our problems? So then... why do we need their problems? Looking at them for inspiration is good enough. Some of the contests you're thinking of are deeply rooted in tradition. Even if they thought they should change, change is very hard for them. Emulating their handicap isn't going to solve anything.
No we shouldn't blindly copy them, but change for the sake of change is meaningless. I just don't see how giving anything to something incomplete is in the spirit of an award ceremony.

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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
1) Since when are these professional awards. These are fan awards.

2) They did serve a purpose because they tell us about a good series that started in 2012 and has not finished yet.
1) Then why all the formalities here? Why not just make a thread about what you thought the best of the year was? This is a fan's awards, but we're administrating this in a more professional way. People were complaining about the lack of voter turnout, and I think that might partially have to do with the lack of weight these awards hold on the website. People don't feel attached to them precisely because they don't seem to hold any weight or meaning. I picked out a category that I thought doesn't hold any meaning.

2) So why not name this award the 2/3 award? Award series based on their first two thirds. If their first two thirds were great, nominate it. It had an awesome start and all. How is this notable at all honestly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Although it's not always the case often shows that started one year with 2 or more cours but end in the first cour of the next year are at a disadvantage because people end up forgetting about them.
If they were forgotten that easily, they must have not been that notable. Why are we awarding them then? Chihayafuru showed us this year just fine that such series can and do win.

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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
If there are stronger shows than Psycho Pass & Shin Sekai Yori in 2013 the awards next year will reflect that, if not they will win awards in 2013. I don't really see what the big deal is that there is one award given to a show that is ongoing. The very nature of the award tells us we aren't awarding it for being complete but awarding it for the fact that while it is not finished we are enjoying this show very much.

Also no one ever said the award is only for shows that have no ending in sight. If people wanted to vote for those shows, obviously they are eligible but just because people didn't does not mean this award didn't serve a purpose.
That's exactly the point. The big deal here is that we are trying to give meaningful distiguishment to series that we thought represented the best of the best. With something so fleeting as "on-going," the award could lose all meaning within the span of a few weeks to a couple months.
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Old 2013-02-15, 14:56   Link #88
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by felix View Post
It's ALL, not just 2012. God we really need to change the name.
Sorry I did know this it was my mistake in the wording


Reckoner I think you are making a way bigger deal out of this then there needs to be. It is one award for an unfinished series, that is all. The award isn't saying it is going to end up being the best series of all time. It's just saying hey of the series that are still airing we like this one the best. I am at a loss why that makes this a useless award.

So we reward a series that might turn crappy in the end, who cares. You mentioned Another well I thought that was a huge disappointment and it still won an award in this contest. This is a fan award so in my perspective good & bad series can win by the nature of it anyways.

I highly doubt people did not vote because of this one award.
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Old 2013-02-15, 15:10   Link #89
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I highly doubt people did not vote because of this one award.
Indeed it isn't just one award that did. It is an aggregation of meaningless categories. There is so much bloat in our current format, which I've been preaching for the last couple years, and I think this does deter people. It is a form of "ballot fatigue" so to speak.

For example, I still see the SoL vs Drama category to be one of the silliest propped up dichotomies in these awards. It is a complete farce - SoL overlaps with drama completely.

I also hope we get rid of the Sports category (too little things to really matter and fits in drama anyways), best storyline/plot (What the heck is this even supposed to mean?), best setting (so what if it has a good setting, if the show fails to make use of it then it doesn't deserve to be praised, and I Think SAO didn't do very well on this front as is reflect in how it won nothing else).
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Old 2013-02-15, 15:14   Link #90
Kirarakim
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Indeed it isn't just one award that did. It is an aggregation of meaningless categories. There is so much bloat in our current format, which I've been preaching for the last couple years, and I think this does deter people. It is a form of "ballot fatigue" so to speak.

For example, I still see the SoL vs Drama category to be one of the silliest propped up dichotomies in these awards. It is a complete farce - SoL overlaps with drama completely.
I don't find it a meaningless award, I find it one of the more interesting awards of the ballot.

If you find it meaningless then there is a simple solution, don't vote for it. You seem to be the only person complaining about the award.

On another note I also think many people would disagree with you that SOL=Drama.
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Old 2013-02-15, 15:16   Link #91
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The SoL should just be gone because nobody can agree on what it's supposed to be.
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Old 2013-02-15, 15:23   Link #92
Kirarakim
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The SoL should just be gone because nobody can agree on what it's supposed to be.
Well this I can agree with since the category can't be clearly defined it might not be a good one.

Although I think that might be an issue with a lot of the genre categories.
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Old 2013-02-15, 15:33   Link #93
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SoL being ill-defined is just another reason for its removal, but I haven't seen a single definition of SoL that wouldn't just fit under any contemporary notion of what the "Drama" genre is about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I don't find it a meaningless award, I find it one of the more interesting awards of the ballot.

If you find it meaningless then there is a simple solution, don't vote for it. You seem to be the only person complaining about the award.

On another note I also think many people would disagree with you that SOL=Drama.
If people disagree with me, then that's that. I am just trying to express my viewpoint here.
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Old 2013-02-15, 15:51   Link #94
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Chuunibyou didn't win a thing.

Maybe there should be a "Best Audience Friendly Show" category...
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Old 2013-02-15, 15:58   Link #95
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If people disagree with me, then that's that. I am just trying to express my viewpoint here.
You are right and I am sorry if I come off as attacking you for just voicing your opinion. I realize you are just giving feedback which of course you have a right to do.

But I think you are wrong to look at it as bringing down the awards. At the very least I think it would be interesting to see how the winner of this award does at next year's awards.

I actually think this year had much lower profile series (with the exception of Fate Zero) so that in my opinion caused more of a low vote count than too many categories.

*And by low profile I don't mean bad, in fact I often prefer lower profile series.
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Old 2013-02-15, 16:00   Link #96
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The SoL should just be gone because nobody can agree on what it's supposed to be.
I agree. Using the very term "slice of life" has a high chance of turning a given thread into an argument over what that actually means rather than the original topic.

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Well this I can agree with since the category can't be clearly defined it might not be a good one.

Although I think that might be an issue with a lot of the genre categories.
Slice of Life, insofar as it actually exists, is pretty easy to define. It's just that there's lots of people who don't agree with the definition.

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SoL being ill-defined is just another reason for its removal, but I haven't seen a single definition of SoL that wouldn't just fit under any contemporary notion of what the "Drama" genre is about.
Really? Under a certain definition (technically the right one ), slice of life works would all be exclusive of drama works.

----------------------------------------------------------

If the main goal of an improved Awards thread is to increase user participation, all of this genre talk isn't going to help much. There's a couple of problems that I see as barriers to more votes. First, it's not visible enough. Not everyone comes into the General forum, and of those that do, many might not check out the awards thread. A solution may be to pin an announcement link at the top of all the forums.

Second, it's too complicated for posters casually reading the thread. It feels as if every, or at least a large number of categories need to be voted on. If a poster doesn't feel that he can contribute enough, then he may just abstain from voting altogether.

Third, the voting is too exclusive. With only five choices per category, a poster may not feel that any of them reflects his choice. If he feels this way towards a few categories, there's a decent chance of another non-vote altogether.

There's no simple fix for these last two if the current format is going to be retained. My suggestion would be to look at how other forums manage to get more inclusive results. The anime vote at Neogaf seems to be a good example of a method that manages to be both easy for casual posters to participate in, and inclusive of all shows. But I'm sure there's lots of other examples out there.
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Old 2013-02-15, 16:14   Link #97
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Also I want to point out that I don't think the Anime Suki Choice Awards really reflect the best anime of the year. They only reflect what these forums feel are the best anime of the year.

Don't get me wrong I am tickled pink that Chihayafuru won best TV series (more so because I was told by a representative of Kodansa that they won't be licensing the manga because it's too esoteric) but the only thing these awards really tell me is I agree more with the taste of the members here (at least the members that voted). There is a reason this forum is a place I like to hang out at.

edit: As for the voting phase not being inclusive of everyone's choices, well the nomination phase is. Unless the solution is to only have a voting phase but honestly I don't see more people nominating even when they have the choice of all series.
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Old 2013-02-15, 16:49   Link #98
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TBH i didn't vote in any of the categories in the voting phase that i didn't nominate due to the fact that either i didn't agree with the final nomination (can't agree with Another being Horror, for the same reasons why i don't consider movies franchises like Saw or Final destination as horror series) or simply because i haven't seen the serie.

While the nomination phase is a good way to limit the possible choices for the final voting phase, it doesn't work that well if there are not enough people nominating a serie. Since it might deter some people from voting in some categories in the voting phase.
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Old 2013-02-17, 08:23   Link #99
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Anyhow, I keep saying that these awards become a little meaningless when we have so many categories. We need to cut down on the insignificant categories [...]. If we give a shining star to everything, then nothing really stands out as special anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Indeed it isn't just one award that did. It is an aggregation of meaningless categories. There is so much bloat in our current format, which I've been preaching for the last couple years, and I think this does deter people. It is a form of "ballot fatigue" so to speak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Third, the voting is too exclusive. With only five choices per category, a poster may not feel that any of them reflects his choice. If he feels this way towards a few categories, there's a decent chance of another non-vote altogether.
I agree with these points (well, in fact I already pointed them in my feedback, but hey it's good to know you're not alone ^^).

As the awards are for series published in a year, and there isn't THAT many each year, there is far too many categories with each far too few shows - and often the same show appearing in many categories. The opposite would be better, making awards more meaningful, voting more involving and reducing the "lobbying" effect of seeing a few shows completely dominating the entire contest.
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Old 2013-02-17, 13:13   Link #100
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In fairness to Reckoner, I think there's a tricky balancing act that has to be performed in making the AS Choice Awards the best that they can be.

That balancing act is in duly considering interesting category ideas, but also in keeping the total number of categories down to a reasonable number.

With "Best Ongoing...", I'll openly admit that I supported that added category. I felt it was necessary to address the one major flaw to our overall approach to two cour shows that start in the Fall, while also hopefully placating those that wanted to show support for SSY, Psycho-Pass, and/or Jojo's Bizarre Adventure.

But at the same time, this was a concession for me, as I think you can get too many categories overall. Yes, at some point they really do start to detract from the worth of any one award. Perhaps more importantly, too many categories can eventually be a turn off to people voting (people generally don't like abstaining a lot in votes like this, and they might consider it a bit of a hassle to have to pick winners in a lot of different categories).

Of course, you can also have too few categories, where certain strengths aren't recognized and awarded as they should be.


With this in mind, I think there's a certain "sweet spot" for total number of categories. A "sweet spot" were you're recognizing all the key strengths, but not becoming bloated to the point of irrelevancy or voter intimidation. Personally, I think that sweet spot is very close to 20, and not much above it.

For this reason, I don't want OPs and EDs to have separated categories. We have enough categories as it is, and OPs and EDs have very similar appeals.
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