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View Poll Results: Psycho-Pass - Episode 17 Rating
Perfect 10 44 51.16%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 22 25.58%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 11 12.79%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 6.98%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 1.16%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 1.16%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.16%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-02-15, 14:06   Link #101
monir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Watched the episode, I did, here are my findings.

Drones are stupid

While my standpoint from two episodes ago remains the same considering the knowledge I had back then, I'll now choose to abandon the discussion because my arguments didn't account for the existence of a massive computer system operated by hundreds of (living and conscious) human brains. For now I'll just keep it at "it didn't occur to any of those 250 personalities", which is so dang unlikely I don't expect anyone else to accept it unless they think the same way I do. This also leads me to...

Piss poor defenses from invasion

Uhhh yeah, while I kind of understand your point, my way of thinking is just different. I'm thinking no one really has any particular reason to attack Japan in the first place, so I don't really think about it that much. Sorry for thinking differently.

Sibyl's poor security

Poor judgment is human nature. I can hear some of you thinking "that's the best you can come up with?", but from a narrative point of view, this work is clearly trying to bring us a message. I believe that Makishima is actually kind of an author insert. Except with added murderous tendencies.
I'm still hoping the above will be addressed in the coming episodes even if it is for a second or two. I think right now the only way to explain the lack of foreseeing can be explained away at the human mentality. We have tendency to abandon things that we don't have everyday use for. TSA in the USA, for example, is fairly a recent security measurement after 9/11. I wonder if any where in the modern world still uses morse-codes/telegraph to send message. Has anyone here seen a rotary-phone within the last couple of years? The usage of landline telephone is also fading away rapidly. I'm guessing a whole lot of us would perish if we are suddenly stranded somewhere we have to catch fish and hunt games to feed ourselves and yet, that used to be the norm not that long ago in time.

The lack of internal security can only be explained as there were no need for such for the longest of time until Makishima riled things up. The another striking thing was the auditorium-like room the enforcers were sitting in as they were getting briefed before heading out to deal with the riot. I'm guessing the police force used to be pretty big also at one point before the need for it faded away, and the size shrunk to its current number. How long has this order lasted? If it is anything more than a decade, then in human term, that's a loooong period of time for revising conventional outlook and make policy-change. To me, at least, it makes sense as to why there is a lack of, what we would consider, security.

Quote:
Makishima is awesome now!

It's ok to cheer for him (only in this case), but try not to forget that he is, in fact, a horrible person, and needs to be dealt with.
Thank you! He is still a person who has done some really horrible things.
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Old 2013-02-15, 16:32   Link #102
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Except these aren't just brains in vats. The brains retain their individuality, while at the same time being elevated to trans-human gods ruling over an entire country.

If anything, this is the ultimate embodiment of corruption and self serving interest. Think about it. The Sybil brains are willing to use lethal force to kill people who are threatening the brains...but they aren't even willing to let Akane stun Makishima when he's about to kill her friend? How is this ANYTHING but self serving corruption?
Think about it: The brains are essentially devoid of physical bodies, which would make them devoid of any of the dependence on the physical needs or desires of the human body. Any self-interest that is left within them would be directed towards running the system more efficiently for their own collective ego. Any obstacles are dealt with in a very pragmatic manner.
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Old 2013-02-15, 16:36   Link #103
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
Think about it: The brains are essentially devoid of physical bodies, which would make them devoid of any of the dependence on the physical needs or desires of the human body. Any self-interest that is left within them would be directed towards running the system more efficiently for their own collective ego. Any obstacles are dealt with in a very pragmatic manner.
You seem to forget that the brain is the source of needs and desires, the body is just a way to carry them out.

They don't have any reason to WANT the system to be efficent. They are just as likely to mess with the system for their own entertainment. Just because they are reduced to brains doesn't mean they stop acting like humans.
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Old 2013-02-15, 16:50   Link #104
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
You seem to forget that the brain is the source of needs and desires, the body is just a way to carry them out.

They don't have any reason to WANT the system to be efficent. They are just as likely to mess with the system for their own entertainment. Just because they are reduced to brains doesn't mean they stop acting like humans.
All that's really been established is that they have damn huge egos. Without bodies, that pretty much eliminates their need for anything material; hence, all that's left is for them to feed their own egos by maintaining sufficient control over the system. They are most certainly not messing around the system for their own entertainment. Rather, they seem to take their role in the society very seriously, eliminating all obstacles and incorporating those minds that could allow them to control everything more efficiently.
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Old 2013-02-15, 17:35   Link #105
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God I love makishima!
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Old 2013-02-15, 17:56   Link #106
Quadratic
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Wow, what a loaded episode!

The explanation of usage of the brains is a little confusing.
Is the Psycho-pass reading is still somewhat mechanical and it interrogates the knowledge of the existing 200+ brains, or do the brains collectively judge the people via comparing their stream of concious against the person being scanned (or something like that)?
The fact they can force another person to be a "cog in the machine" implies the former, but the Touma somewhat implies the latter as well.
The former implies the brains, too, are essentially "sheeps" of the system, but they get special perks like stepping outside of the system once in a while (eg. assume the Chief's body/control the nation) and experience euphoria via higher level of intellegence.
Well actually, is there a difference between the two (or in fact, is both cases true in this story)?
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Old 2013-02-15, 19:07   Link #107
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Gave it a 7/10 because Makeshima is awesome.

The Detectives are failures and the Enforcers are nothing but performing Dogs.

And there are too many plotholes anyways.
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Old 2013-02-15, 19:11   Link #108
Dengar
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.....A plothole is an impossibility, not an implausibility. You really need to stop getting those two mixed up.
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Old 2013-02-15, 19:38   Link #109
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
All that's really been established is that they have damn huge egos. Without bodies, that pretty much eliminates their need for anything material; hence, all that's left is for them to feed their own egos by maintaining sufficient control over the system. They are most certainly not messing around the system for their own entertainment. Rather, they seem to take their role in the society very seriously, eliminating all obstacles and incorporating those minds that could allow them to control everything more efficiently.
And how exactly do you get off thinking that a cadre of semi mind reading ego maniacs isn't ripe for corruption?

Ideally when it comes to crime coefficient, the measurement should be based on purely on their likelyhood to commit criminal actions, without any personal bias. People can accept this as being fair when they think it's objective machines producing the crime coefficient readings. But what happens when you introduce the uncertainty of of Sybil actually being a small group of mind reading egomaniacs who think they're gods, and look down on normal people?


Think about Tomomi's conversation with Gino about rising crime coefficient. Tomomi's crime coefficient started rising not because of some criminal tendencies, but because he started to feel doubts about his job. His crime coefficient only stopped rising once he learned to *accept* Sybil. There has in fact been allot of talk throughout the series about how clear hues and low crime coefficients as if they were less related to violent/psychopahic/sociopathic tendencies, and more related to accepting Sybil, and Sybil not rejecting you...almost like Sybil was some kinda of temperamental entity that didn't like individuals who didn't adore it.

And now we know that Sybil isn't an impartial computer system. It's 250 human beings who think of themselves as gods, using their arbitrary intuition to decide who is a latent criminal. Now tell me. Are these people going to objectively judge crime coefficients of peaceful non violent citizens who might just happen to have some misgiving about the nature of the system? Or will they, as gods, be displeased when the puny mortals don't offer up unconditional devotion as a sacrifice?



It takes some obtuse thinking to not recognize this as a tyrannical abuse of power, and something very likely given how we know Sybil actually works.



edit: Another potential example is Yayoi. A talented Sybil sanctioned musician, and a perfectly mentally healthy individual whose almost garunteed to never commit a crime that would menace society...and then she starts appreciating music out of the confines of what Sybil defines as good. She's still utterly law abiding...but what do the brains think of someone who rejects their judgement on what makes good music? Do they handle it calmly and rationally? Or do they decide to get their nickers in a twist for about .05 milliseconds, and arbitrarily flag her as a latent criminal?

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Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post
How do we know that for sure? After all it was stated they could remove Makishima's brain by force if they had to (Destroy His Body and Take His Brain) so obviously they've could've done this to plenty of non-violent sociopaths who've been detected.

Also if you remove the free will how would they be able to calculate and handle problem solving and who better to handle the hard chooses then the individuals who don't feel remorse for their actions...I like most of our politicians.
The problem is that someone like Makishima who DIDN'T commit violent crimes...would be impossible to detect. The literal definition of criminally asymptomatic individuals requires them to commit CRIMES that can be contrasted to their inaccurate crime coefficient.

The horrific implication here, is that EVERY SINGLE ONE of the brains currently running the Sybil system likely got scouted because of committing crimes violent enough to get them noticed.

Last edited by Roger Rambo; 2013-02-15 at 19:59.
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Old 2013-02-16, 01:33   Link #110
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
All that's really been established is that they have damn huge egos. Without bodies, that pretty much eliminates their need for anything material; hence, all that's left is for them to feed their own egos by maintaining sufficient control over the system. They are most certainly not messing around the system for their own entertainment. Rather, they seem to take their role in the society very seriously, eliminating all obstacles and incorporating those minds that could allow them to control everything more efficiently.
What I put in bold is a totally unsubstantiated, and very counter-intuitive statement, imo.

How do you know they are not messing around the system for their own entertainment? At least one of these brains is that of a serial killer, and we know that Makishima (Sibyl's new star recruit) is often a horribly sadistic person with murderous tendencies (and Makishima himself is also arguably a serial killer). To think that none of these brains ever gets sadistic shits and giggles out of screwing up, if not outright destroying, people's lives is the heights of naivety, imo.

Then there's what Roger wrote.


This is an impressively monstrous system that Gen has conceived of, imo.
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Old 2013-02-16, 06:58   Link #111
Dengar
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What about a version of the system that's completely impartial? Perhaps even actually run by several supercomputers working in tandem? One that focused more on mental healthcare rather than getting dissenters out of the way?
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Old 2013-02-16, 07:27   Link #112
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
How do you know they are not messing around the system for their own entertainment? At least one of these brains is that of a serial killer, and we know that Makishima (Sibyl's new star recruit) is often a horribly sadistic person with murderous tendencies (and Makishima himself is also arguably a serial killer). To think that none of these brains ever gets sadistic shits and giggles out of screwing up, if not outright destroying, people's lives is the heights of naivety, imo.
I really like to emphasize it's almost garunteed that all of the Sybil brains are murderers, or at the very least very violent criminals. Simply because Asymptomatic criminals who DIDN'T commit high profile violent crimes simply wouldn't be noticeable by the system. they'd just come off as healthy law abiding citizens. Someone has to do something pretty dramatic in order to get their status as an Asymptomatic criminal noticed...like slashing a woman's throat in front of an inspector with a dominator.

Frankly, given how the director talked about it? Someone who WASN'T willing to seriously violate social taboos as serious as murder probably wouldn't be considered a good candidate for the Sybil system by the other brains. The way she described the requirements and how the detection process works...almost everyone of those brains sounds like it's garunteed to be some kind of sociopath murderer.


I think the real question now is this. 50 years ago, WHO exactly behind closed doors thought that making 250 serial killers the perpetual tyrants of all of Japan was a good idea?
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Old 2013-02-16, 08:15   Link #113
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Wait a minute. That whole dialogue-heavy description of the Sibyl System. Is just a bunch of intellectual's brains (while still active with their own thoughts) stuffed inside glasses? Playing the role of God with Japan's population? Does that mean that once the Dominator points at someone. They automatically deduct how to deal with that person instead of a machine reading their emotions/minds? Explains a whole bunch on why they didn't want to kill Makishima then.
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Old 2013-02-16, 08:43   Link #114
Roger Rambo
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Wait a minute. That whole dialogue-heavy description of the Sibyl System. Is just a bunch of intellectual's brains (while still active with their own thoughts) stuffed inside glasses? Playing the role of God with Japan's population? Does that mean that once the Dominator points at someone. They automatically deduct how to deal with that person instead of a machine reading their emotions/minds? Explains a whole bunch on why they didn't want to kill Makishima then.
Pretty much. Mind, the reason they don't want Makishima killed, is because guys like Makishima are the kind of people qualified to join the brain network.
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Old 2013-02-16, 08:44   Link #115
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I was kinda irritated that Makishima was able to escape so easily but it was my only complaint (well other than the noticeable drop in animation).

I knew right away that Makishima would reject the offer it was still good to hear his explanation because it's just so uncomfortable. His reasoning is almost the same as mine and yet that same reasoning is his excuse in murdering so many people.
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Old 2013-02-16, 09:03   Link #116
zeando
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Pretty much. Mind, the reason they don't want Makishima killed, is because guys like Makishima are the kind of people qualified to join the brain network.
Or the opposite, because they didn't managed to kill makishima he's qualified to join the brain network, so the next makishima will be correctly scanned.
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Old 2013-02-16, 09:08   Link #117
Roger Rambo
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Or the opposite, because they didn't managed to kill makishima he's qualified to join the brain network, so the next makishima will be correctly scanned.
...I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here.
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Old 2013-02-16, 10:42   Link #118
zeando
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...I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here.
I'm finding it unlikely the idea of them/brains willingly letting makishima going around totally immune to scans, if they really could detect him they wouldn't had to look for him and giving him as missing, but would have instead just gone to fetch him from the start, avoiding a lot of fuss and damages for themselfes
same about the helmets and the "the brains judge by real time videos" which i had already addressed around 20 posts ago

if they really knew from the start he was qualified to join the brains why losing a lot of time and ostacolating his capture? if they were this aware when he was about to kill akane's friend they would have enabled at least the paralizer, allowing him to get captured while not risking to kill him.
but they didn't do that(enabling the paralizer or anything else), so there are the two options:
-them being jerks and putting their being jerks above their safety-image-wellbeing
-them being unable to judge makishima cause they have no experience about mental reactions like his, and they have no video to base on
i'm leaning on the latter, mostly because i don't feel satisfied with justifying anything with "they're jerks and crazy"

or to quote the post i replied to you before, why "guys like Makishima are the kind of people qualified to join the brain network"? (which i don't really agree with, since if they had managed to add makishima after that anyone else like him would be no longer asymptomatic)

anyway, this would be better to continue in the sibyl thread
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Old 2013-02-16, 11:57   Link #119
Dengar
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...I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here.
He's saying it's the other way around. It's not that they didn't judge him so he could join the system. It's because they COULDN'T judge him that they wanted him to join the system.
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Old 2013-02-16, 12:04   Link #120
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One of the things I find most disturbing about the truth of the Sibyl system is the following: Even if I put aside my "mistreats people for sadistic shits and giggles" concern, there's the fact that we've shifted from an objective mechanical reading (like taking someone's temperature or heart rate) to a subjective human-made assessment (like, say, a pro sports scout assessing a young undrafted player).

Right now, I really, really wonder what even goes into these Psycho-Pass readings. Do each of these brains just make a personal judgement of how "criminally inclined" someone seems to be, and then attach a numerical judgement to that? Because if so, that's frighteningly arbitrary/subjective...
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