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Old 2013-02-15, 05:47   Link #2981
cedec0
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Doesn't work like that. The lineup is fixed during the tournament.
I suspected that might be the case, but I wasn't sure. That means that Teru VS Saki will have to be settled in the individuals...
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Old 2013-02-15, 05:55   Link #2982
cedec0
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It might not seems like a massacre if she's only going to win a couple of hand, but it's highly possible that her spotlight would be when she counters all of her opponents ability.
Actually, considering how close the scores are and the fact that the average points won per hand so far is 10000+, If shizuno wins "a couple of hands" (while continuing to take no damage), it will be a massacre.
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Old 2013-02-15, 06:38   Link #2983
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
Clue #2) The unatural lack of tsumos in the second hanchan



In the first ten hands of the final round, there were six Rons (60%) and four Tsumos (40%). What is more, these Tsumos are evenly distributed throughout the ten games.

Then Shizuno activates her ability., and we get six straight games without any tsumos.

This strongly suggest that, once Shizuno's ability activates, she can "prevent opponents from drawing winning tiles". (By the way , the "prevent opponents from drawing winning tiles" would also prevent Koromo's Haitei Raoyue)
The reason there aren't any more tsumos is because of Awai's ability, and the fact that she's using it every round. Awai's ability allows her to her to ron the opponent who draws immediately after the last corner in the wall. As for Ryuuka and Himeko's wins, Awai's use of riichi basically lowers her defense. When you riichi, you have to continually discard every tile which does not give you a win. This makes it more likely/easy for Awai to get hit when Ryuuka or Himeko use their hax abilities to win.


Quote:
Clue #3) Shizuno's complete lack of damage in second hanchan

In the first ten hands of the final round, Shizuno loss points in 50% of the hands (four Tsumos and one Ron). Then Shizuno activates her ability, and avoids all damage in the next six hands.

This suggest that, once her ability is activate, Shizuno can "avoid dealing into opponents hands". (Combined with the lack of Tsumos, this makes Shizuno is immune to all damage.)
The reason Shizu has been able to avoid dealing into Awai is because Harue specifically told her "only play safe tiles after Awai kans". Harue told Shizu the precise weakness of/way to defend against Awai's ability, that's why she hasn't gotten hit. It has nothing to do with her ability. Again, because Awai's ability predisposes her towards Rons, there is a simple explanation for why Shizu hasn't taken any damage.
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Old 2013-02-15, 10:02   Link #2984
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It's ironic that Achiga haters sometime call Shizu a monkey, because what monkey does best other than banana is climbing.

And I'm surprise no one mention anything about taking responsibility.
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Old 2013-02-15, 10:33   Link #2985
morli
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Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
Hi, it is my first time posting on this Achiga-hen message board. I have some ideas/predictions about Shizu's power and what is going to happen next chapter, and I would love to gets some reactions/feedback. Here is what I suspect:

1) Shizuno's ability is NOT simply an image breaker. That is only one aspect of Shizuno's power. Her true ability is basically this: the more she plays against an oppenent, the more she can criple that oppent's play. This crippling takes MULTIPLE forms, one of which is "disabling special abilities" (image breaker). Other aspects of her power (once it activates) include "preventing opponents from drawing winning tiles" and "never dealing into oppenent's hand".

Shizuno regards opponents as "mountains" which she slowly climbs, conquers, and completely shuts down.

2) If I am right about the true nature Shizuno's ability, Achiga-hen is going to end in a one-sided massacre. Shizuno is about to become the one of the most overpowered players in the Saki universe while the other schools struggle desperately for second place.
An interesting theory about Shizu ability! I can almost agree about all thing in there, except there is a point that you don't explain. Read this scene:

Harue: The dice...what did she roll?
Yue: Uhm, according to the wall, it's two from the right.
Harue: Snake eyes!! That's good. Now we'll see if Shizu can stand up to Oohoshi Awai!

The important question is: How does dice related with Shizu ability?
Spoiler for Dice ability:

And about Shizu ability:

1) Disabling abilities --> no brainer there! We can all agree this is Shizu ability she show so far... Although the mechanic is still in question

2) Preventing them from drawing winning tiles --> A good idea! This is the answer of how Shizu "disable" Awai ability. And this explain why Awai could still get double riichi but doesn't win. It's only negating her draw!

3) Never dealing into their hands --> A most questionable ability so far. Maybe Shizu never dealing because Awai sucks at defense and prefer ron to tsumo?
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Last edited by morli; 2013-02-15 at 11:30.
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Old 2013-02-15, 10:57   Link #2986
Marina2
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Shizu seems to read other people hand very well. She may know when will Awai ron someone but she still need to read Awai's hand to avoid it.

She also didn't deal into any Ryuuka and Himeko hand. Ryuuka and Himeko have no reason to not try to ron Shizu during the game - Don't forget that.
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Old 2013-02-15, 11:11   Link #2987
Von Himmel
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Quote:
The important question is: How does dice related with Shizu ability?
It's probably the wall, there's a post a couple of pages back that explains how it works and how Shizu negates it. It's either that the dice was mentioned because of Awai's ability (and in respect, Shizu's ability) or her ability is really connected with it.
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Old 2013-02-15, 12:35   Link #2988
Serperior
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Anyone here plays mahjong or has some basic mahjong knowledge?

Because you guys seem to forget that the undrawn tiles are called "mountain".

Some abilities has something to do with puns, like with Seiko, being called a fisherman, is because she can fish "call" out tile from the pond "discard pile"

Do you know the purpose of the dice? I have no idea since I play online mahjong but here's a bit of tidbit:

Dice roll by the dealer at the beginning of each round determines not only which wall to start taking tiles from, but how far along the break from the wall starts.

If the dice roll 5, 9, 13, or 17, then cut the dealer's wall. 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18 cut South's wall, 3, 7, 11, 15 cut West's wall, and 4, 8, 12, and 16 cut North's. Then, count the wall, stack by stack, from right to left until you reach the number rolled. Cut the wall to the left of that stack.

Basically, it means that Shizu's ability has something to do with the mountains.

Though, I kinda like the theory of Shizu having an AoE effect of not having any tsumos at all. It's a spectacular ability since it lowers your opponent's score, even by a little. It's like a debuff and (on certain occasions) attacking move since a closed tsumo is a yaku by itself.

Anyways, I stopped caring about who'll be going into the finals with Shiraitodai now. I just don't want Shizu to stop Shindouji's counted yakuman since it will be too tragic.

Shindouji is basically in last place for all 5 matches and if you guys remember, Shindouji is a school that consistently do badly in the finals. I think it's been hinted that ever since they changed their lineup from weakest to strongest, the semi-finals is the highest round that they have ever been in. So it would be too tragic for Shizu to break Himeko's key.

See Himeko's expression here? Too tragic. She shouldn't be the next Kana since she's a pseudo-monster herself!

Spoiler:
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Old 2013-02-15, 12:55   Link #2989
Marina2
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Originally Posted by Serperior View Post
Dice roll by the dealer at the beginning of each round determines not only which wall to start taking tiles from, but how far along the break from the wall starts.

If the dice roll 5, 9, 13, or 17, then cut the dealer's wall. 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18 cut South's wall, 3, 7, 11, 15 cut West's wall, and 4, 8, 12, and 16 cut North's. Then, count the wall, stack by stack, from right to left until you reach the number rolled. Cut the wall to the left of that stack.
In term of gameplay, what is the point of doing this Why not just make the wall same in every round. Will game play change in anyway?
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Last edited by Marina2; 2013-02-15 at 13:34.
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Old 2013-02-15, 12:56   Link #2990
eavein18
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Warning : This is a rant, if you're too lazy to read it, just read the conclusion at the bottom.

Shizu played into someone on the previous game, so I don't think she can read someone's hand.

That and when Awai ron Himeko, Shizu look at Awai's hand and think something along the line of "Had I play that tile I would be ron-ed" which seriously implies that she didn't know Awai's hand. (So Shizu having the ability to read someones hand theory is OUT!)

In double riichi mode, Awaii can't tsumo, her ability is double riichi -> kan -> ron -> kan ura dora 4.

Since Ryuuka and Himeko doesn't have a Harue™ they insist of completing their hand after Awai kan (thus getting ronned) while Shizu as per Harue™ 's advice, play 100% safe tile.

Ryuuka and Himeko doesn't have reason not to ron Shizu, but they do have reason to ron Awai, that and I believe Awaii is almost 100% attack, 0% def (which means that Shizu have better defense then her)

I'm neutral on Shizu her self, but I dislike if people portray her as a monster T_T

True she does have the ability to negate other's, but that seriously doesn't make her a monster, on that table she is totally ignored T.T

Awai is totally into Himeko. Himeko is "I'll prove that our combo is the strongest!". Ryuuka is trying hard to not let her lover down. Shizu is sitting there watching people ron-ing each other.

Hell even after Awai getting ron by Shizu, she only stay worried about Shizu for 1 turn only, and she's like "Hm? My ability is fine, so that's just me slipping a bit" and goes back obsessing over Himeko

It's like a supposedly 4 person battle royale in the Colosseum , but it turns out that the other 3 fighter is too absorbed into each other that Shizu just sit in the corner and watch as the battle unfold.


Conclusion :

1) I'm not a hater, and I don't mind Shizu-fans being happy that Shizu got *awesome* power, but her being a monster? Nu uh, she's far from that title dearie.

2) When Achiga win ("when" not "if" because of plot armor), it is 30% because of Shizu's power, and 70% her "I'm not important enough to get attention from the other 3 monsters so they go attack between them self and left me and my points alone"

Edit :

The dice are for 2 things:

1) Dealer rolls the dice. Count counterclockwise from dealer. This determines which wall will be broken.

2) Count from player's right the same number of tiles as dice roll. This determines where to break the wall.

http://www.japanesemahjong.com/reach...break_wall.htm <-- go here for a visual
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Old 2013-02-15, 12:58   Link #2991
Drkz
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Its a manga what do you expect?
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Old 2013-02-15, 13:19   Link #2992
Marina2
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@eavein18


I didn't say Shizu can read someone hand "perfectly" but "very good".

Even with [I'm not important enough to get attention from the other 3 monsters so they go attack between them self and left me and my points alone"] she can still getting ron , and the fact that she only dealed into someone hand only one time for entire game means she's good at reading other player hand. Well, unless you are saying that Shizu is being forgotten to the point that other 3 players will forget to ron her when she discards the tile they want......

With that, if Shizu can protect her point, wait other monsters to kill each other and manage to find a chance to counter attack once and win as 2nd - It means she wins because her good defensive skill and sneaky tactic. Not because no one care about her.
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Last edited by Marina2; 2013-02-15 at 13:39.
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Old 2013-02-15, 14:16   Link #2993
Serperior
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Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post
In term of gameplay, what is the point of doing this Why not just make the wall same in every round. Will game play change in anyway?
Well, no, it doesn't change the gameplay but... it might change the "flow" of the game per say.

"Flow" in mahjong is real, btw. That's what I take of it anyways. I have no idea, and like I said, it's not really used in online mahjong. I'm guessing in real life, it helps the tiles to be more shuffled. An automatic mahjong table is expensive so when playing mahjong in real life, you shuffle it manually.

Haha, I guess it also prevents cheating!
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Old 2013-02-15, 14:44   Link #2994
eavein18
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Originally Posted by Drkz View Post
Its a manga what do you expect?
Hmm... since you didn't specify for whom your comment is, I'm going to be narcissistic and assume that your comment is for my post, but you didn't specify what exactly do you mean, I'm going to say that I love your profile picture (unrelated? I know~).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post
@eavein18


I didn't say Shizu can read someone hand "perfectly" but "very good".

Even with [I'm not important enough to get attention from the other 3 monsters so they go attack between them self and left me and my points alone"] she can still getting ron , and the fact that she only dealed into someone hand only one time for entire game means she's good at reading other player hand. Well, unless you are saying that Shizu is being forgotten to the point that other 3 players will forget to ron her when she discards the tile they want......

With that, if Shizu can protect her point, wait other monsters to kill each other and manage to find a chance to counter attack once and win as 2nd - It means she wins because her good defensive skill and sneaky tactic. Not because no one care about her.
Take out your sword and let's duel here and now, the winner got their opinion approved as the truth.

(Just kidding, I believe "each to their own" so just leave it there)
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Old 2013-02-15, 15:13   Link #2995
fukarming
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As sad as it may sound, I think Shindouji's counted Yakuman had to be broken, if Achiga is going to the final. So far, the series is consistent that whoever to go thru "deserve" to go through. Shizu ron from the no name school on the previous round; Saki breaking Kasumi and Toyone; Kyouko breaks Kasumi...etc. In practice Shizu don't need to break anything (Awai keeps on ronning against Ryuka and Himeko, Himeko counted Yakuman direct hit on Awai, that will bring the points of Himeko down to around Shizu, Shizu wins a small hand and able to advance). But that will just give Achiga hater even more firepower to hate Achiga.

Just an interesting note on Mahjong and dice: it is noted that in manual shuffling, if you want to learn how to cheat, the first lesson is learn is how to roll either north or east, so you can cut the wall in front of you, which of course you can manipulate if you are a pro-cheater. So if you play Mahjong with someone and that someone consistent roll either north or east, that person may be cheating!
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Old 2013-02-15, 17:32   Link #2996
Fragment off
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Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
As sad as it may sound, I think Shindouji's counted Yakuman had to be broken, if Achiga is going to the final. So far, the series is consistent that whoever to go thru "deserve" to go through. Shizu ron from the no name school on the previous round; Saki breaking Kasumi and Toyone; Kyouko breaks Kasumi...etc. In practice Shizu don't need to break anything (Awai keeps on ronning against Ryuka and Himeko, Himeko counted Yakuman direct hit on Awai, that will bring the points of Himeko down to around Shizu, Shizu wins a small hand and able to advance). But that will just give Achiga hater even more firepower to hate Achiga.
It could also go Himeko Ron Shizu with the key on south 3rd ,and then Shizu Tsumo a Sanbaiman/yakuman an south 4th, putting her back in second place by just a little. It would need Ryuuka loosing some points before that ,but it is an othe option .
And they are many other option
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Old 2013-02-15, 19:36   Link #2997
cedec0
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Hi again,

just wanted to point out that a DECENT translation of Achiga-hen ch19 is out (no Daxing Dan):

http://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/sa...of_side_a_ch19

;--------------------------------

From this new translation:

(Page 76)

Coach Harue: "Shizu... Those three players... can you climb their mountains?"

Coach Harue: "Have you made your way through to the furthest spot?"

(Page 78)

Shizu (standing at the furthest spot): "I can see it all!"


In other words, Shizu has "climbed the mountains" (mastered/understood the playstyles) of her opponents all the way to "the furthest spot" and can now "see it all". Shizuno is about to become a monster and this semi-final is going to end in a massacre.

;--------------------------------

Also, I am totally confused as to why some people can't accept the idea of Shizu as a monter mahjong player. For example:

Quote:
I'm not a hater, and I don't mind Shizu-fans being happy that Shizu got *awesome* power, but her being a monster? Nu uh, she's far from that title dearie.

I thought Shizu being a Saki-level monster was always a given. Just look at the logo for the Achiga-hen anime:


(How can that shadow not be a monster player?)

Everything in the series points to Shizu being a monster:

1) She is the main character and focus of Achiga-hen (look at image above). How many animes/mangas have you seen where everyone EXCEPT the main character is awesome?

2) Koromo warnings about Shizuno. Kuromo knows how strong Saki is better than anyone, would she really bother mentioning Shizu unless she was something trully special?

3) Coach Harue decision to place Shizu last in the team order and her complete confidence in Shizu despite her opponents ridiculous powers.

...


If Shizu isn't a monster that can give Saki a run for her money, then what was the point of Achiga-hen? Sixteen episodes and twenty manga chapters to introduce an opponent Saki wipes the floor with in finals? Why base an entire side-arc around a player who turns out to lame and pathetic? This makes absolutely no sense.

Last edited by cedec0; 2013-02-15 at 20:30.
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Old 2013-02-15, 20:22   Link #2998
Sumeragi
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I've always thought of her as the "Anti-Monster", in the sense that her ability is to counter the powers of the monsters.
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Old 2013-02-15, 20:25   Link #2999
cedec0
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So it would be too tragic for Shizu to break Himeko's key.

See Himeko's expression here? Too tragic.
Since I don't see any way for Shindouji to win the finals, we will see more more of Himeko's heartbreaking expressions when Shindouji loses, whether it is in the finals or semi-finals. It is tragic, but it is also unvoidable.

However, Shindouji does have a realistic chance to make it to the finals.


Achita is the only school that I think has a guarranteed ticket to the finals at this point. Shiraitodai losing is very realistic for two reasons:


1) It would be a very interesting plot twist which I is why I can see it happening (the Saki VS Teru will happen in the individuals anyway)
2) All of Shiraitodai's players have had their abilities throughly explored and then defeated:

A) Teru's rampage was stopped
B) Sumire's "Piercing Arrows" were defeated
C) Shibuya Takami's ability wasn't interesting enough to be worth seing again
D) Matano Seiko was completely dominated
E) Oohoshi Awai has already had her ability defeated by all three of her opponents.

So I'd say the odds of Shiraitodai making the finals are less than 50% at this point.

;--------------------------------

Quote:
Shindouji is basically in last place for all 5 matches and if you guys remember, Shindouji is a school that consistently do badly in the finals.
Actually, for a brief momment Shindouji was in the lead:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/saki_...a/c018/27.html
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Old 2013-02-15, 21:11   Link #3000
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A bit forced, but still amusing:

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