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Old 2013-02-15, 21:20   Link #3001
tarajis
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Within the choice of Steins Gate...
Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
Also, I am totally confused as to why some people can't accept the idea of Shizu as a monter mahjong player.

It's not like people don't want to accept the idea but it's just that Shizu hasn't shown any monster-like ability yet... unlike our resident demonic overlord final boss who hadn't play for quite some while had shown her stuff right at the get-go of the show and it's just the tip of the iceberg but left Hisa grinning like crazy as if she just found herself a goldmine... not to mention making the middle-school champion weep... you got yourself a bonafide monster right there and then...


Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
I thought Shizu being a Saki-level monster was always a given. Just look at the logo for the Achiga-hen anime:

Spoiler for Space:

(How can that shadow not be a monster player?)
I see a pretty big saki kanji character and a romanized saki and a petal of a flower and a shadow that's kinda pointing to the name Saki...


Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
If Shizu isn't a monster that can give Saki a run for her money, then what was the point of Achiga-hen? Sixteen episodes and twenty manga chapters to introduce an opponent Saki wipes the floor with in finals? Why base an entire side-arc around a player who turns out to lame and pathetic? This makes absolutely no sense.

Well, from what I see is that achiga-hen is a side story that revolves around the happenings at the other side of the bracket... some may contend to why not put the POV to Teru and Shiraitodai then... well, that can be good as to we might see Teru's side of the story and the day-to-day antics of Teru and Awaii and how Sumire deals with it... but from the Majhong perspective then we'll just see the slaughter from the prefectural up until the semi-finals where Shiraitodai only gets a real challenge which will be boring unless you enjoy the carnage...

No one said anything that Saki will wipe the floor with the monkey but on the contrary... Shizu will be someone that will force Saki to unleash the beast... pair Shizu with an onee-chan-stealing supernova then we'll see hell on Tokyo... I just hope the fourth player won't be just someone to complete the table...
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Old 2013-02-15, 22:14   Link #3002
Bladezer
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post
Long post as usual, Bladezer

It's really hard to quote parts your post that I want to respond.
Sorry, I am trying to cut back


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post
I think a littile detail like that can be different. The point is: most part of it is accurate to the manga (ability,effect, playstyle, characters etc.) so I think Nodaka and Saki part is canon.
Merely saying don't necessarily follow everything the preview showed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post
How did you know Shizu can't? You do noticed that Shizu ability has some conditions to activate right? I think it more like she didn't activate it in those rounds.
What I mean is, When Himeko has a key Ryuuka is unable to see her ending hand, meaning Shizu can't block them both at the same time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post
I was saying that each pair of number may have different effect and/or one of them can improve Shizu skill.
Okay, understandable, but doesn't really match with how Koromo said Shizu stopped her haitei rouyoe, in the second match they had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Requiem-x View Post
On a more serious subject, what the hell does mountain climbing have to do with IB? Or anything? Could it be Shizu's power is just the ability to block plays once she's gotten the hang of everyone's styles? Harue, please provide a full explanation before everything is said and done. Also, I'm very glad she didn't just figured out everything about Awai instantly, that'd have been so anticlimatic.
And this is why seeing Achiga's training would really have helped us get a grasp on Shizu's play style and ability. I think Koromo will be the one to give us the explanation of Shizu's ability, or Hiroko may notice the oddities with Shizu and come up with a good explanation, or we could have Yuu and Kuro be the ones explaining it saying how Shizu has blocked them in the past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Requiem-x View Post
Also, I think it's great Awai doesn't even register Shizu, definetly a much better way to show Achiga as the underdogs than having their player crying in despair Just you wait, supernova, the name Takakamo Shizuno will be engrave in your mind soon enough. I hope
That's actually a good way to set them up as the underdog for the finals. After all Achiga has no players with recognized fetes like Kiyosumi does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Pretty sure that you have been mixing up Eastern order and Western order here. Most importantly, Choe Myeonghwa is half-Korean and Hao Huiyu is of Chinese descent.

To say it softly, I would have figured you would know name orders by now.
Except Choe is a recognised player in the European league, which suggests she grew up in France, meaning she'd have the more European like name.

Also the names on most English sites with info Saki have already flipped the names to western system of: Forename.Surname.

Quote:
Originally Posted by teja208 View Post
Isn't Satoha being a "great normal player" also made her a potantial candidate for "monster slayer" title? I'm not sure I fully understand what you are implying, but it seems you have a different definition for both terms. As for me, I viewed the term "great normal player" as general quality of a "monster slayer" since someone here pointed out that it is unwise to go monster slaying unless you happen to be a monster yourself which I don't think is entirely correct. I personally believe that monster slaying should be encouraged amongst skilled normal players with lots of gut. It maybe my personal bias, but I admit a little part of me want to see them succeed the impossible or at least not giving up till the very end.
I was supposed to put quotation marks next to monster slayers... this would relate to players who think they have the right skill to fight evenly with a monster.
I was also referring to those with abilities and play styles that are built to hurt monster players, this refers to players like Sae
Also it may seem crazy but Satoha could have an ability of her own, but I doubt what with how she's dealing with Yuuki, who pretty much is guaranteed to have the flow of the game on her side during the east round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by teja208 View Post
I guess my standard prerequisite for the monster slayer is too high. I stand correct, maybe I should've dropped the "wannabe" part and just labeled Satoha and Kyouko plain "monster slayer" instead since they both probabily accomplished quite a few monster slayings to made it this far into the tournament. However, if one want the title "Monster Slayer King" they have to at least conqour one of the Miyanaga sisters. Yeah, one of them should be enough to earn that title.
Actually from reading this, I just remembered that we possibly missed a great regular player, who could possibly take on monster, I mean Hiroe of course, though her traps probably wouldn't work on Teru. Also I don't see anyone claiming the title of 'Monster Slayer King' or Queen. Think about it for a second the only other person to give a Miyanaga sister was Touka in her cold state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atua View Post
She probably did use Hisa's hell wait in her 3rd hand. (Saki Ch 61, pg 12) She passed up a 3 sided (4, 7, 8 sou) wait for the 3 pin pair wait, when she drew the 6 pin for tenpai. The rest of the discards weren't shown, so it's not 100% that it was a hell wait, but Hisa notable reaction to both the discard and the win, and Maho's own thought bubble ("there's something behind this dora!") strongly implies it.

The fact that Maho can use abilities of people who're nearby, and not just her opponents, opens up a lot of possibilities if she ever gets better at mahjong... Imagine her channeling Kokaji-pro for a hand, if her copy ability "range" gets beyond line-of-sight/room, to say people on the same floor/building/conference centre, LOL. Maybe Kainou-pro has the professional level version of this skill?
Reread the chapter, it seems Maho did use Hisa's ability, and the hell wait was a pair wait.
I think the condition for Maho to use someone's ability is to actually see them in action. After all there are 4 ability users in Kiyosumi (Hisa, Mako, Yuuki and Saki) Maho never used Mako's, because if you remember back Maho only got to the playing hall when Hisa was playing. Plus with Maho we found a rarity, a undeveloped ability user, meaning that Maho literally only discovered hers when she staring playing in middle school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Himmel View Post
Though what will happen is probably that Shizu will counter each players ability late game and then take a win by countering Shindouji It might not seems like a massacre if she's only going to win a couple of hand, but it's highly possible that her spotlight would be when she counters all of her opponents ability.

Her calm demeanor is actually pretty scary too in the scene betwen her and Ako.
Himeko has a key for the round before the last. Meaning the last 2 hands would be a massacre by Shizu.
Well in the scene between her and Ako, its still possible for her to go through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
Actually, considering how close the scores are and the fact that the average points won per hand so far is 10000+, If shizuno wins "a couple of hands" (while continuing to take no damage), it will be a massacre.
Pretty much, Shizu has been doing a good job of dodging, unlike in the quarter finals where she accidentally played into a hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The reason Shizu has been able to avoid dealing into Awai is because Harue specifically told her "only play safe tiles after Awai kans". Harue told Shizu the precise weakness of/way to defend against Awai's ability, that's why she hasn't gotten hit. It has nothing to do with her ability. Again, because Awai's ability predisposes her towards Rons, there is a simple explanation for why Shizu hasn't taken any damage.
Still don't forget in the break Hiroko told Ryuuka to play safe after Awai called kan and Ryuuka still got hit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post
Shizu seems to read other people hand very well. She may know when will Awai ron someone but she still need to read Awai's hand to avoid it.

She also didn't deal into any Ryuuka and Himeko hand. Ryuuka and Himeko have no reason to not try to ron Shizu during the game - Don't forget that.
And this is where Shizu should be given the note of not having a bad defensive play, also Himeko doesn't have to worry about busting her, Shizu has enough points where she would survive to end of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serperior View Post
Though, I kinda like the theory of Shizu having an AoE effect of not having any tsumos at all. It's a spectacular ability since it lowers your opponent's score, even by a little. It's like a debuff and (on certain occasions) attacking move since a closed tsumo is a yaku by itself.

Anyways, I stopped caring about who'll be going into the finals with Shiraitodai now. I just don't want Shizu to stop Shindouji's counted yakuman since it will be too tragic.

Shindouji is basically in last place for all 5 matches and if you guys remember, Shindouji is a school that consistently do badly in the finals. I think it's been hinted that ever since they changed their lineup from weakest to strongest, the semi-finals is the highest round that they have ever been in. So it would be too tragic for Shizu to break Himeko's key.

See Himeko's expression here? Too tragic. She shouldn't be the next Kana since she's a pseudo-monster herself!

Spoiler:
Shizu having an area of effect of stopping Tsumo wins does make an for interesting idea.

Himeko won't be the next Kana, Himeko will probably finish the match with a okay score.
I say that look is more because of the pressure that Awai has built up around the table with her ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eavein18 View Post
Shizu played into someone on the previous game, so I don't think she can read someone's hand.
It is possible to read a hand and still play into by accident. Also try not forget they stay silent. Also Ryuuka could've played into that hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eavein18 View Post
That and when Awai ron Himeko, Shizu look at Awai's hand and think something along the line of "Had I play that tile I would be ron-ed" which seriously implies that she didn't know Awai's hand. (So Shizu having the ability to read someones hand theory is OUT!)

In double riichi mode, Awaii can't tsumo, her ability is double riichi -> kan -> ron -> kan ura dora 4.
Just so you know, reading an opponents hand in Saki is pretty much something everyone can do, meaning Shizu could still have read Awai's hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eavein18 View Post
Since Ryuuka and Himeko doesn't have a Harue™ they insist of completing their hand after Awai kan (thus getting ronned) while Shizu as per Harue™ 's advice, play 100% safe tile.

Ryuuka and Himeko doesn't have reason not to ron Shizu, but they do have reason to ron Awai, that and I believe Awaii is almost 100% attack, 0% def (which means that Shizu have better defense then her)
Ryuuka also has Hiroko's warning about Awai's ability and she still played into, so there goes the 1st one out the window.
Also do you think that if Shizu relaxed for a second Ryuuka or Himeko wouldn't jump on her. Ryuuka saw Shizu's comeback victory in the quarter-finals dropping Shizu to a place where she can't cause an upset is somewhere Ryuuka would want to send her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eavein18 View Post
True she does have the ability to negate other's, but that seriously doesn't make her a monster, on that table she is totally ignored T.T

Awai is totally into Himeko. Himeko is "I'll prove that our combo is the strongest!". Ryuuka is trying hard to not let her lover down. Shizu is sitting there watching people ron-ing each other.

Hell even after Awai getting ron by Shizu, she only stay worried about Shizu for 1 turn only, and she's like "Hm? My ability is fine, so that's just me slipping a bit" and goes back obsessing over Himeko

It's like a supposedly 4 person battle royale in the Colosseum , but it turns out that the other 3 fighter is too absorbed into each other that Shizu just sit in the corner and watch as the battle unfold.
Do you honestly think Shizu is being ignored? For one it should be obvious Ryuuka is not ignoring her, one wrong move and Ryuuka will send her into lower points, as said she has seen Shizu pull herself out of a point of possible no return. Also if Ryuuka makes a wrong move Shizu will attack and drop her out of 2nd. And Himeko will probably take any chance at a winning tile to get a win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eavein18 View Post
1) I'm not a hater, and I don't mind Shizu-fans being happy that Shizu got *awesome* power, but her being a monster? Nu uh, she's far from that title dearie.

2) When Achiga win ("when" not "if" because of plot armor), it is 30% because of Shizu's power, and 70% her "I'm not important enough to get attention from the other 3 monsters so they go attack between them self and left me and my points alone"
Okay Shizu ability is only really dangerous to monster players, meaning Shizu is a monster to monster players, which is what were saying. And again do you really think Ryuuka is ignoring her.
Also the point spread in the captains match is to close, so anyone will take the chance to create a big gap will take it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post
Even with [I'm not important enough to get attention from the other 3 monsters so they go attack between them self and left me and my points alone"] she can still getting ron , and the fact that she only dealed into someone hand only one time for entire game means she's good at reading other player hand. Well, unless you are saying that Shizu is being forgotten to the point that other 3 players will forget to ron her when she discards the tile they want......

With that, if Shizu can protect her point, wait other monsters to kill each other and manage to find a chance to counter attack once and win as 2nd - It means she wins because her good defensive skill and sneaky tactic. Not because no one care about her.
I doubt we'd have Ryuuka forgetting to ron Shizu, after what Shizu pulled of in their last match, meaning if Ryuuka sees a chance to send Shizu crash and burning she will take it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serperior View Post
"Flow" in mahjong is real, btw. That's what I take of it anyways. I have no idea, and like I said, it's not really used in online mahjong. I'm guessing in real life, it helps the tiles to be more shuffled. An automatic mahjong table is expensive so when playing mahjong in real life, you shuffle it manually.
Flow is in online Mahjong, I used it to bust someone, than in the next match I played into a 13 orphans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
As sad as it may sound, I think Shindouji's counted Yakuman had to be broken, if Achiga is going to the final. So far, the series is consistent that whoever to go thru "deserve" to go through. Shizu ron from the no name school on the previous round; Saki breaking Kasumi and Toyone; Kyouko breaks Kasumi...etc. In practice Shizu don't need to break anything (Awai keeps on ronning against Ryuka and Himeko, Himeko counted Yakuman direct hit on Awai, that will bring the points of Himeko down to around Shizu, Shizu wins a small hand and able to advance). But that will just give Achiga hater even more firepower to hate Achiga.
This actually why I'm glad Shizu won once in the first half, because it would have the Achiga haters saying that Shizu has no skill at being able to win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
Everything in the series points to Shizu being a monster:

1) She is the main character and focus of Achiga-hen (look at image above). How many animes/mangas have you seen where everyone EXCEPT the main character is awesome?

2) Koromo warnings about Shizuno. Kuromo knows how strong Saki is better than anyone, would she really bother mentioning Shizu unless she was something trully special?

3) Coach Harue decision to place Shizu last in the team order and her complete confidence in Shizu despite her opponents ridiculous powers.

...


If Shizu isn't a monster that can give Saki a run for her money, then what was the point of Achiga-hen? Sixteen episodes and twenty manga chapters to introduce an opponent Saki wipes the floor with in finals? Why base an entire side-arc around a player who turns out to lame and pathetic? This makes absolutely no sense.
What you said does make actually make a lot of sense. Why waste the side-story on 5 characters with specific abilities and play styles, and then not pit them against the 5 main characters in original story, when that has been what the side story, as well as the main series has foreshadowed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
Achita is the only school that I think has a guarranteed ticket to the finals at this point. Shiraitodai losing is very realistic for two reasons:


1) It would be a very interesting plot twist which I is why I can see it happening (the Saki VS Teru will happen in the individuals anyway)
2) All of Shiraitodai's players have had their abilities throughly explored and then defeated:

A) Teru's rampage was stopped
B) Sumire's "Piercing Arrows" were defeated
C) Shibuya Takami's ability wasn't interesting enough to be worth seing again
D) Matano Seiko was completely dominated
E) Oohoshi Awai has already had her ability defeated by all three of her opponents.

So I'd say the odds of Shiraitodai making the finals are less than 50% at this point.
Well here's something I thought I'd never do, have to defend Shiraitodai.
Interesting as it is, Shiraitodai have been built up as the team that would finally make Kiyosumi have to go all out, meaning no busting a team in the lieutenants round, Yuuki cannot hold back against Teru, doing so will put Kiyosumi to far behind in the finals, Nodoka and Saki must play in the finals, if they don't Kiyosumi will most likely lose, even badly. Yes Yuuki, Mako, and Hisa are good players, but Takami can possibly Yakuman spam, and Teru can actually get Takami the point wall she needs to help her built her final hand.

Teru didn't use her full power in the semi-finals. She's going to use what she couldn't in the semi-finals in the finals.
Sumire can play well without her ability, also I think Sumire will find out about her tell, also I think she may know how to actually hit speedy hands.
Takami still has the chance for a yakuman spam, meaning a real challenge for both Hisa and Ako having to overcome.
Seiko ...No comment
Awai has not had her ability defeated, Himeko's key stops her 5 shaten, Ryuuka has limited foresight uses, and iit seems Shizu needs to take a while before her ability starts to take effect. Also Awai's kan ability is pretty much built to challenge Saki for the dead wall.
Also Awai having her ability related to kan, really makes her seem like a replacement for Saki to Teru.

Also something interesting I noticed with Shizu's ability:
First remember Shizu stopped playing Mahjong in middle school
Second it seems that abilities seem to really come through and be noticed by people in Middle school
Third Shizu started playing again in high school, where only 2 ability users are in her club
Fourth with her ability being to block over ability users wins, she wouldn't really notice it at first, and with Yuu and Kuro having magnet abilities, which she wouldn't really be able to stop
In conclusion, what I'm saying Shizu's ability is sporadic because it didn't develop properly like everyone else's did, meaning Harue literally would have to jump start it the nationals, because it seems Nara only has 2 ability users.
So what I'm saying Shizu is only now getting proper development for her ability, unlike say Yuuki, who knew about hers since middles school, which pretty much allowed for Hisa to help Yuuki get the power ups she needed.

On another note I hope Ritz has a fast recovery. I know what would hold us over until next month for the Achiga-hen chapter, how about episode 15 of the anime, hint, hint animation studio.
Something I really am looking forward to in the anime, is how they will animate Ryuuka's foresight of to see the path to her winning hand, they did a great job with how they showed Toki looking forward 2 turns, them 3, and I feel the music really fitted, and how they will show Himeko activating her key.

Last edited by Bladezer; 2013-02-15 at 22:35.
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Old 2013-02-15, 22:21   Link #3003
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bladezer View Post
Except Choe is a recognised player in the European league, which suggests she grew up in France, meaning she'd have the more European like name.
Except there is no surname "Myeonghwa" in Korean. In addition, where a player was in does not really affect how one writes one's name.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bladezer View Post
Also the names on most English sites with info Saki have already flipped the names to western system of: Forename.Surname.
Like I give a damn what "fan" sites say. The official names are still in the Eastern order, never mind that most sources that bother to write down the kanji writes in the Eastern Order.
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Old 2013-02-15, 22:46   Link #3004
cedec0
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Quote:
I see a pretty big saki kanji character and a romanized saki and a petal of a flower and a shadow that's kinda pointing to the name Saki...
The point of the picture is that Shizu is the closest thing Achiga-hen has to a main character, and main characters tend to always be (or become) overpowered monsters (Saki herself is an example of this).

Other reasons to believe that Shizuno will turn out to be a monster:

1) It seems obvious that Achiga is headed to the finals, which means the stronger Shizuno is, the more interesting it makes the final. So why the hell wouldn't they make her a monster? (Also, if she isn't a saki-level, then all those people complaining about Achiga not derserving to go to final will be right (I will be one of them. I only support Achiga on the assumption that Shizuno is a monster)).

2) To keep things interesting in the finals, Saki must face at least one opponent stronger than Kuromo. I don't consider Himeko, Awai, or Ryuuka to be stronger than Kuromo, so it can't be them. The only one with the potential (on side A) to become a monster that surpasses Kuromo is Shizuno.

;--------------------------------

On personal level, I find Saki to be arrogant and overpowered a lot of the time. I want someone to, if not defeat her, then at least put her through hell in the finals. Awai is not capable of doing this (look how much she is struggling in the semi-finals). Someone who can wipe the floor with Awai, however, might just be the right power level for some serious Saki crushing, which is what I am hoping for from Shizuno.
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Old 2013-02-16, 00:57   Link #3005
cedec0
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Quote:
Well here's something I thought I'd never do, have to defend Shiraitodai.
Sorry, I am going to make you defend Shiraitodai again.

Quote:
Teru didn't use her full power in the semi-finals. She's going to use what she couldn't in the semi-finals in the finals.
Sumire can play well without her ability, also I think Sumire will find out about her tell, also I think she may know how to actually hit speedy hands.
Takami still has the chance for a yakuman spam, meaning a real challenge for both Hisa and Ako having to overcome.
Seiko ...No comment
Awai has not had her ability defeated, Himeko's key stops her 5 shaten, Ryuuka has limited foresight uses, and iit seems Shizu needs to take a while before her ability starts to take effect. Also Awai's kan ability is pretty much built to challenge Saki for the dead wall.
Also Awai having her ability related to kan, really makes her seem like a replacement for Saki to Teru.
You seem to be arguing that, because Shiraitodai is powerful and would do well in the finals, that is why they will win the semi-finals. In the real world, that would be a good arguement, but not necessarily in the Saki universe.

I might be wrong, but the key criteria to determine which team (other than Achiga) will advance is not their strength, but "which team would make the finals more interesting". In other words, the team which would make the finals the most fun to watch stands the best chance of advancing. Boring characters and abilities lower a team chances and popular characters with interesting abilities raise a team's chances. Using this metric, Shiraitodai's chances are poor, especially compared to Senriyama.

Think about which player from each team would make the vanguar/Sergeant/lieutenant/vice-captain/captain battle most interesting in the final.

;--------------------------------

VANGUARD POSITION

1) Shiraitodai: Miyanaga Teru

No question that Teru is insanely strong, but that is not necessarilly good for her chances. There are two possibilities if Teru makes the final, both of which don't really work:

A) Vanguard battle is carbon copy of what happens in the semi-finals. Three or four chapters of Teru kicking everyone's ass while racking up points. Powerful yes, but BORING AS HELL (especially if you are right about Teru "not using her full power in the semi-finals.").
B) Teru does poorly in vandard battle. Saki's invinsible sister is no longer invincible. (increadibly unlikely)

Do you really want to read another four chapters of everyone desperately trying to stop Teru's rampage? Or do you want to see the all-powerful Teru do poorly (win by less then 30000)?

Teru getting to the finals just doesn't really work.

2) Senriyama: Onjouji Toki

One of the most popular characters with a very fun ability. Seeing her struggle against more powerful opponents would be more fun than watching another Teru massacre.

3) Shindouji: Hanada Kirame

Barely better than a Teru massacre, but still boring. She doesn't add anything to Vanguard battle.

;--------------------------------

SERGEANT POSITION

1) Shiraitodai: Hirose Sumire

Hard to see her as being that interesting. With her tell exposed (good chance other schools might pick up on it too), it would be hard to use her arrows. Without her arrows, she is just a good player without a particularly interesting personality. She won't do badly in terms of points, but it won't be that interesting.

2) Senriyama: Nijou Izumi

Hard to tell. If she can avoid being dominated again, she could potential be interesting. Personallity wise more interesting than Hirose, but still blah.

3) Shindouji: Yasukouchi Yoshiko

She is a robot right? No personallity/emotions when playing mahjong. Not interesting, but not really worse than the two other possibilities.

;--------------------------------

LIEUTENANT POSITION

1) Shiraitodai: Shibuya Takami

Potentially powerful, but not interesting. A bland character with a borring ability. Sure she could potentially win a lot of points if she is dealer last, but would that make up for her doing nothing the rest of the time?

Verdict: equally boring as another Teru massacre.

2) Senriyama: Eguchi Sera

No special abilities, but one of the more interesting character. Even if she loses points, watching her would be more interesting than Shibuya Takami and her boring ability.

3) Shindouji: Ezaki Hitomi

Do we really want to listen to her again, as she conplains "it is all the government's fault" as she loses points like mad? (the posibility of her doing well is zero (in my opinion))

;--------------------------------

VICE-CAPTAIN POSITION


1) Shiraitodai: Matano Seiko

least powerful member of Shiraitodai, and not that interesting either. Don't really want to see her get her ass kicked again.

2) Senriyama: Funakubo Hiroko

Awsome character, powerful too. Would be ten times more fun to watch in the finals than Matano Seiko. Would also be really interesting to see how she stacks up against Nodoka.

3) Shindouji: Shirouzu Mairu

Finally, a member of Shindouji that is interesting, powerful, and has a fun ability. More mahjong bondage.

;--------------------------------

CAPTAIN POSITION

1) Shiraitodai: Oohoshi Awai

All three captains are powerful and interesting.

2) Senriyama: Shimizudani Ryuuka

All three captains are powerful and interesting.

3) Shindouji: Tsuruta Himeko

All three captains are powerful and interesting.

;--------------------------------

Judging by "which team would make the finals more interesting", Senriyama wins hands down with only one potentially uninteresting player. Although their chances of winning might be lower than Shiraitodai, watching them would be fun, and that is why I see them as the team most likely to advance after Achiga.

Last edited by cedec0; 2013-02-16 at 03:08.
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Old 2013-02-16, 00:57   Link #3006
eavein18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
The point of the picture is that Shizu is the closest thing Achiga-hen has to a main character, and main characters tend to always be (or become) overpowered monsters (Saki herself is an example of this).

Other reasons to believe that Shizuno will turn out to be a monster:

1) It seems obvious that Achiga is headed to the finals, which means the stronger Shizuno is, the more interesting it makes the final. So why the hell wouldn't they make her a monster? (Also, if she isn't a saki-level, then all those people complaining about Achiga not derserving to go to final will be right (I will be one of them. I only support Achiga on the assumption that Shizuno is a monster)).

2) To keep things interesting in the finals, Saki must face at least one opponent stronger than Kuromo. I don't consider Himeko, Awai, or Ryuuka to be stronger than Kuromo, so it can't be them. The only one with the potential (on side A) to become a monster that surpasses Kuromo is Shizuno.

;--------------------------------

On personal level, I find Saki to be arrogant and overpowered a lot of the time. I want someone to, if not defeat her, then at least put her through hell in the finals. Awai is not capable of doing this (look how much she is struggling in the semi-finals). Someone who can wipe the floor with Awai, however, might just be the right power level for some serious Saki crushing, which is what I am hoping for from Shizuno.

*sigh....*

While I know that people's opinion won't be changed easily, I never knew it was this hard to convince someone that a player who just won 1 time is not a monster.

*facepalm*

pop quiz :

1. Did Shizu won against Koromo?

a) Yes
b) No
c) No but she's awesome enough that Komoro feels the need to warn Saki
d) Ofc not!

2. What did Koromo warn Saki about Shizuno

a) She's a monster
b) She can cancel other people's power
c) She's way stronger then Koromo (despite the fact that she never won against Koromo)
d) Did she? Nah that's just her picking out topic to talk with Saki.

3. Is Saki arrogant?

a) Yes
b) No
c) Despite the fact that she never gloat, never gives out bad expression, never mock someone, Her being Shizuno's opponent in the final makes her arrogant by default
d) She's Shizuno's opponent, that makes her better then Shizuno in any way, so No.

4. Does eavein18 understand why people want Saki to suffer?

a) Yes (Shizuno have to beat her mwahahahaha!!!)
b) No (she has suffer enough already)
c) Yes (she cry even when she win, so she needs to be beaten)
d) Why did you make a quiz about your self stupid?

-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-
If you choose :

a) You're a die-hard-fans that thought all character despite Shizuno is bad/evil

b) You're neutral on stuff (or you're eavein18)

c) You're Shizuno's fan

d) You're Shizuno's hater

-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-

Fans will love, hater will hate

eavein18 accept that fans believe that Shizuno is a monster

but eavein18 didn't accept fans saying Saki is arrogant

to Shizuno's fans that say Saki is arrogant, eavein18 could only say "how blind can you be"
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Old 2013-02-16, 01:38   Link #3007
The Green One
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Now Shiritodai not making it to the finals would be an amusing and admittedly interesting twist, it would completely invalidate the Saki episode 26 preview shots of Teru vs Yukki so ultimately Shiratodai not making it would make no sense. We have to face facts, it's going to be Shiratodai regardless of their so called lackluster semi final's performance and what is increasingly looking like a build up to Achiga going as well especially with all the build up as Shizuno being set up as a "rival" to Saki.

Not to mention if Shizuno somehow manages to take first and humble Awai, you'll have supernova-chan out for Shizu's head and to get her in bed, not necessarily in that order.
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Old 2013-02-16, 01:45   Link #3008
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by The Green One View Post
Not to mention if Shizuno somehow manages to take first and humble Awai, you'll have supernova-chan out for Shizu's head and to get her in bed, not necessarily in that order.
Reminds me of this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Images
Can I eat her, can I?
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
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Old 2013-02-16, 01:50   Link #3009
The Green One
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teja208 View Post
It's ironic that Achiga haters sometime call Shizu a monkey, because what monkey does best other than banana is climbing.
I can't speak for others but for me when I call Shizu a monkey, I consider it an affectionate nickname, I'm actually rather fond of the little bundle of energy.
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Old 2013-02-16, 02:19   Link #3010
Von Himmel
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Quote:
Not to mention if Shizuno somehow manages to take first and humble Awai, you'll have supernova-chan out for Shizu's head and to get her in bed, not necessarily in that order.
...that's actually the main reason for me to root for Achiga. They're going to make a nice baka couple
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Old 2013-02-16, 02:35   Link #3011
The Green One
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The new OTP! That's right Shizu, you don't need Nodoka anymore!
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Old 2013-02-16, 02:53   Link #3012
cedec0
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Quote:
*sigh....*

While I know that people's opinion won't be changed easily, I never knew it was this hard to convince someone that a player who just won 1 time is not a monster.

*facepalm*

pop quiz :

1. Did Shizu won against Koromo?
c) No but she's special enough that Komoro feels the need to warn Saki

Quote:
2. What did Koromo warn Saki about Shizuno
E) She saw a spark in Shizumo (potential)

Quote:
3. Is Saki arrogant?
E) Yes, but it isn't intentional. Her +/-0 play style is inheritely arrogant. When a far superior player toys with an opponent (manipulating their score) instead of defeating them outright, that is arrogant, and Saki has done this a lot (though not out of malice).

Quote:
4. Does eavein18 understand why people want Saki to suffer?
E) ???

Personally, Saki has begun to give me the same feeling as Takumi from Initial D: horribly overpowered, never facing an opponent with any realistic chance at victory (i stopped reading Initial D because I got sick of Takumi always winning with ridiculous ease.) Saki has yet to play a serious match against an opponent that gave her any difficulty (the only reason she struggled against Koromo was she wasn't fighting at 100% (her shoes were on)). Her power level is far above Koromo who is herself a monster. I don't want to see Saki crush a clearly inferior opponent (Awai) because that is boring. If Saki is going to stay interesting we need another monster far stronger than Koromo who can at least fight a shoeless Saki without automatically being crushed.

That is what I was thinking when I wrote "I want someone to, if not defeat her, then at least put her through hell in the finals. " I don't hate Saki, but she needs to face a real opponent (a monster on her level) or the finals are going to be disapointingly boring.

Quote:
-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-
If you choose :

a) You're a die-hard-fans that thought all character despite Shizuno is bad/evil

b) You're neutral on stuff (or you're eavein18)

c) You're Shizuno's fan

d) You're Shizuno's hater
E) I like Saki but she is so overpowered right now that is boring (she is the last boss and everyone else in the world is the underdog). I like Shizuno because she is the only one I see with the potential to become a monster capable of fighting Saki on equal grounds in the final.


;--------------------------------

eavein18, here are some questions for you:

Do you enjoy seeing Saki crush and toy with clearly weaker opponents?


Do you think Awai (who is clearly less impressive than Kuromo) stands any chance against Saki (who completely crushed Kuromo and is even stronger now thanks to training)?


Why does the possibility that Saki might FINALLY face an opponent on her level (Shizuno) bother you so much?


You do realize that if Shizuno isn't a monster, then Awai will be the strongest opponent from Side A and the finals will be another boring one-sided victory for Saki?
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Old 2013-02-16, 03:29   Link #3013
cedec0
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Quote:
Now Shiritodai not making it to the finals would be an amusing and admittedly interesting twist, it would completely invalidate the Saki episode 26 preview shots of Teru vs Yukki so ultimately Shiratodai not making it would make no sense.
That preview shot was from 2009, two years before Achiga-hen began serialization, so I am fairly confident that the preview will, in fact, be invalidated.

I say that because Shiritodai's team seems designed to play the role of "last boss" in the semi-finals in Achiga-hen:


VANGUARD POSITION

Everyone VS Miyanaga Teru (winner)

;--------------------------------

SERGEANT POSITION

Matsumi Yuu (winner) VS Shibuya Takami

;--------------------------------

LIEUTENANT POSITION

Atarashi Ako & Eguchi Sera (winners) VS Shibuya Takami

Also, Takimi seems like an opponent designed for Ako:

Atarashi Ako's play style (scoring via quick hands with small point totals) backfires against her somewhat (makes it hard for Ako to resist winning and extending her dealership, thus increasing Takimi's power as a result.)

;--------------------------------

VICE-CAPTAIN POSITION

Everyone (winner) VS Matano Seiko

;--------------------------------

CAPTAIN POSITION

Everyone (winner?) VS Oohoshi Awai


Since Shiritodai played the role of last boss in Achiga-hen, they are unlikely to be in the finals (they can't be the "last boss" two times). This would also explain why Shiritodai has disapointed so many: the current Shiritodai was never designed to make in to the finals. They were a team designed to be defeated by Achiga. This is also why all the players except for Teru have been so disapointing: their credibily/threat level doesn't need to be maintained for the finals since they won't be there.
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Old 2013-02-16, 03:38   Link #3014
teja208
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First thing first, for ShizuxAwai pair to kick start, Shizu has prove herself worthy for Awai.

To begin Shizu has to stop Awai from lusting over Himeko (this is most essential) by breaking kazoe yakuman key, something even Awai herself couldn't achieve. This imediatelly draws Awai's attention away from Himeko and toward Shizu.

Next, Shizu has to stop RyuukaxToki foresight which is the other thing that can stop Awai's Ron Kan Ura.

Lastly, Shizu has to mock Awai by snatching away first place engraving her name forever in Awai's head.

And there you have it folks, from that moment forth Awai will not be able to stop thinking about Shizu for better or worse.

With this outcome, we not only get Awai insanely lusting over Shizu, but also Shizu ability will be confirmed the strongest in the match.

Look at it this way.

Ability vs. Ability

Awai kan ura vs. Himeko key: Himeko wins + 1
Awai kan ura vs. Ryuuka foresight: Ryuuka wins + 1
Himeko key vs. Ryuuka foresight: Himeko wins + 1
Shizuno ??? vs. Everyone else on the table: Shizuno wins + 3

Final verdic for strongest ability is:

1st Shizuno 3 pts
2nd Himeko 2 pts
3rd Ryuuka 1 pts
Lst Awai 0 pts.

OMG Awai has the weakest ability on the table.
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Old 2013-02-16, 04:25   Link #3015
azziz
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Join Date: May 2007
i may be old school,but i cannot imagine a final withouth shiratodai;remember saki original motivation to participate in the natinal:meet her one-chan and "talk to her through majong".
so i believe they have the same plot armor than ashiga with nodoka-in fact,i would say even greater:remember the flash back of saki about the mysterious girl in a weelchair.
only at the final its meaning could be revealed through another falsh-back(this time perhaps from teru).
so let's be realist,it will be kiyosumi,shiratodai,ashiga and for the last place-etheir usuzan or rinkai=that's the only suspense.
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Old 2013-02-16, 04:25   Link #3016
night_sentinel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post


On personal level, I find Saki to be arrogant and overpowered a lot of the time. I want someone to, if not defeat her, then at least put her through hell in the finals. Awai is not capable of doing this (look how much she is struggling in the semi-finals). Someone who can wipe the floor with Awai, however, might just be the right power level for some serious Saki crushing, which is what I am hoping for from Shizuno.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post

Yes, but it isn't intentional. Her +/-0 play style is inheritely arrogant. When a far superior player toys with an opponent (manipulating their score) instead of defeating them outright, that is arrogant, and Saki has done this a lot (though not out of malice).
I have to agree with eavein18 on this one.

The definition of arrogant is
-exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner
- showing an offensive attitude of superiority

To my knowledge, Saki has never displayed any of these traits. In fact, her characterization runs on the opposite direction. Heck, I could even say that Saki's major weakness is her ridiculously low self confidence and the fact that she overestimates her opponents.

As for the +/- zero thing, its more of a residual habit than anything else. She used this style since she was six, of course its going to be hard to shake of. Beside that, Saki doing +/- zero is never a display of arrogance. She doesn't think, "You're all so weak, I'm going to handicap myself to make this match semi-interesting." In fact, from the last chapter, her thought process could be summed up as, "My opponents are too strong, so I'll just aim for +/- zero."

I think the reason why you and perhaps many others find this arrogant is because +/- zero is essentially a handicap. If someone does that, she must be looking down on her opponents, yes? That is a very logical extrapolation. The problem with that and Saki's case is as Tsunade666 has succinctly summed up recently "Saki has a few screws loose in her head."

A careful reading between the line will show you that what Saki thinks and what the reality actually is has a vast difference. In fact regarding the +/-zero, I would be willing to bet that Saki never thought of it as a handicap. I would be even to go further and say that Saki thinks of +/-zero as nothing especial and anyone can do it as long as they work hard on it. And you can't really fault her for thinking that way.

On the subject of Saki being overpowered. I do agree that Saki is certainly more powerful than most and it would certainly be a problem if there would be no one to challenge her. But, I find that so far, Ritz-sensei hasn't let us down. On the major matches that Saki has participated so far, every one of them has been interesting.

And really, the person that you must compare to Saki is not Awai or Shizu. They might be her opponents for the final match but they aren't exactly her end goal. If Saki is ever going to have a rival in this tournament, its going to be the person that she wants to talk to in mahjong very badly. You know the other overpowered Miyanaga that is terrorizing everyone in the tournament for the past 3 years?
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Old 2013-02-16, 04:37   Link #3017
cedec0
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Perhaps it has been mentioned before, but I just realized that Achiga is going to be a surprising nasty opponent for Saki and her friends:


VANGUARD POSITION

Matsumi Kuro hoarding all the dora tiles is likely to hurt Kataoka Yuuki's fast-paced, high-scoring style.

SERGEANT POSITION

Matsumi Yuu's playing style is so unique that Someya Mako is unlikely to have never seen anything like it. This means all her accumulated Mahjong experience will be useless against Yuu.

LIEUTENANT POSITION

Atarashi Ako's style of scoring via quick hands with small point totals makes her the worst possible opponent for Takei Hisa, who goes for bigger hands using "hell waits".

VICE-CAPTAIN POSITION

To someone like Haramura Nodoka who plays logically and expects her opponents to play logically, Sagimori Arata's weird bowling-type style is likely to cause problems. Nadoka will probably play into Arata's hand because she isn't expecting such illogical waits.

CAPTAIN POSITION

Don't have all the details on this except that Koromo warns Saki that Shizuno is going to be a "troublesome opponent".

;--------------------------------

In other words, Achiga is made up of players whose styles make them the worst possible opponents for Kiyosumi. This guarrantees that Achiga will be in the finals: Achiga is the true "last boss" for Kiyosumi, not Shiraitodai.
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Old 2013-02-16, 04:47   Link #3018
cedec0
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Quote:
I have to agree with eavein18 on this one.
Maybe arrogant isn't the right word, but I still don't like how overpowered Saki toys with her weaker opponents, which is what she is doing everytime she uses her +/- 0 style. It is inherently insulting for her opponents, even if Saki doesn't mean it that way.
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Old 2013-02-16, 05:09   Link #3019
night_sentinel
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This assumes Achiga is going 1 on 1 with Kiyosumi but sure what the heck.

Quote:
VANGUARD POSITION

Matsumi Kuro hoarding all the dora tiles is likely to hurt Kataoka Yuuki's fast-paced, high-scoring style.
Yuuki just switched her style to one who's more faster but gives cheaper wins. At this rate, Kuro will be the one in trouble against Yuuki if they fight you know...

Quote:
SERGEANT POSITION

Matsumi Yuu's playing style is so unique that Someya Mako is unlikely to have never seen anything like it. This means all her accumulated Mahjong experience will be useless against Yuu.
I don't know how this will end. But, the series has name-dropped several times that Mako's favorite yakuman is 'All Green.' And Mako has gotten some experience against weird play styles in the training camp. She did stomp Aislinn. Mako is too unappreciated.

Quote:
LIEUTENANT POSITION

Atarashi Ako's style of scoring via quick hands with small point totals makes her the worst possible opponent for Takei Hisa, who goes for bigger hands using "hell waits".
Ako vs. Sera ended with Sera winning so Hisa doing big hands isn't a handicap.
Quote:
VICE-CAPTAIN POSITION

To someone like Haramura Nodoka who plays logically and expects her opponents to play logically, Sagimori Arata's weird bowling-type style is likely to cause problems. Nadoka will probably play into Arata's hand because she isn't expecting such illogical waits.
Err... probably. But, for good or bad Nodoka is very consistent and she really doesn't care about her opponent's ability.


Quote:
CAPTAIN POSITION

Don't have all the details on this except that Koromo warns Saki that Shizuno is going to be a "troublesome opponent".
I don't know about all the idle speculation. But, from what I'm seeing Shizu still can't take Saki 1 on 1 and win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
Maybe arrogant isn't the right word, but I still don't like how overpowered Saki toys with her weaker opponents, which is what she is doing everytime she uses her +/- 0 style. It is inherently insulting for her opponents, even if Saki doesn't mean it that way.
Toy? When?
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Old 2013-02-16, 05:30   Link #3020
NeutralZero
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Koromo is more suited for toying her opponent, not Saki...
The +/- 0 is a defensive mechanism... as mentioned by others...
Her screw loose due to her 'colorful' childhood can be explain with Erik Erikson's theory...
It may seems like (and is depending on ones view point) insulting in the eyes of some who fought against her especially to those who noticed her doing so but that is not the case in her eye... they may feel insulted but that was not her intentions...
A defensive mechanism is a form of facade one use when they are put in an unlikable situation...
And its not like Saki's been doing +/- 0 all the time... minus the first few ch, the individual and the recent one in the nationals, she aced them with flying colors even with her match against Koromo...
In every acation there's an equal opposite reaction...
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