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View Poll Results: Psycho-Pass - Episode 17 Rating
Perfect 10 44 51.16%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 22 25.58%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 11 12.79%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 6.98%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 1.16%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 1.16%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.16%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-02-16, 12:31   Link #121
Kanon
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Right now, I really, really wonder what even goes into these Psycho-Pass readings. Do each of these brains just make a personal judgement of how "criminally inclined" someone seems to be, and then attach a numerical judgement to that? Because if so, that's frighteningly arbitrary/subjective...
It's still rather unclear how it works. The brains do make the judgment when it comes to crime coefficient (hue check are done by machines however), but I think they do this by analyzing the data the machines give them, so it's not completely arbitrary. There is probably also a need for a majority of brains to reach a consensus before delivering a judgment, decreasing their subjectivity a bit but obviously not eliminating it completely.
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Old 2013-02-16, 12:39   Link #122
kk2extreme
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Now I wonder who is the final boss now, Makishima or Sibyl system?
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Old 2013-02-16, 13:55   Link #123
RollingPenguin
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
It's still rather unclear how it works. The brains do make the judgment when it comes to crime coefficient (hue check are done by machines however), but I think they do this by analyzing the data the machines give them, so it's not completely arbitrary. There is probably also a need for a majority of brains to reach a consensus before delivering a judgment, decreasing their subjectivity a bit but obviously not eliminating it completely.
Judgement of ones psycho pass has been shown to be entirely objective,because that chief changed the dominators state.If the entire operation was subjective then there would have been no need to change it in the first place.
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Old 2013-02-16, 14:13   Link #124
Reckoner
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I don't think this episode proved the Sybil System is bad. If we look at it from the stand point of justice, it might in fact be perfect. A collective consciousness of human beings that has expanded thought processes and abilities to assess information than greater than any human being can get closest to perfection as possible. It also continuously expands and evolves into a stronger system.

Makishima is an agent of chaos, he is not a champion of justice, but of free will itself.
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Old 2013-02-16, 17:54   Link #125
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I don't think this episode proved the Sybil System is bad. If we look at it from the stand point of justice, it might in fact be perfect. A collective consciousness of sociopathic mass murderers that has expanded thought processes and abilities to assess information than greater than any human being can get closest to perfection as possible. It also continuously expands and evolves into a stronger system.
Fixed that for you.



Remember. Asymptomatic Crime coefficient can only be diagnosed if somebody commits crimes. And I VERY much doubt these brains are getting picked up for jay walking.
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Old 2013-02-16, 20:43   Link #126
Chiaki_chan
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I have a question that is ultimately the system "Sibyl" is ... because after seeing his "true" form with all those brains ... I do not know what to think ... I tell myself that every inspector and executor will have to work and use this system ...

:x
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Old 2013-02-16, 20:46   Link #127
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Fixed that for you.



Remember. Asymptomatic Crime coefficient can only be diagnosed if somebody commits crimes. And I VERY much doubt these brains are getting picked up for jay walking.
Yeah, this is the difference-maker for me.

Don't get me wrong - The idea of society being ran by 200+ brains in jars is a bit unsettling in and of itself. But if these were the brains of some of society's most widely admired and successful people, at least I could see some argument in favor of the Sibyl system. But these are the brains of sociopathic serial killers. So, yeah, no thanks.
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Old 2013-02-16, 20:50   Link #128
Reckoner
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Fixed that for you.



Remember. Asymptomatic Crime coefficient can only be diagnosed if somebody commits crimes. And I VERY much doubt these brains are getting picked up for jay walking.
No where in the episode does it state that. They just said they try to get unique individuals into the system who don't meet mankind's conventional standards. Essentially it's not worth it to put just anyone extra in the system unless they are capable of expanding the system's thinking.
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Old 2013-02-16, 20:56   Link #129
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Given that the members of the system retain their free will, and they themselves choose who join them, I doubt they'll let just any average different-thinking Joe join.
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Old 2013-02-16, 22:06   Link #130
Roger Rambo
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No where in the episode does it state that. They just said they try to get unique individuals into the system who don't meet mankind's conventional standards. Essentially it's not worth it to put just anyone extra in the system unless they are capable of expanding the system's thinking.
That's a ludicrously disingenuous thing to say. Especially when they specifically point out that to the Sybil brains, "unique individuals who don't meet mankind's conventional standards=people with asymptomatic crime coefficient."


Considering that the only way to be sure if someone has asymptomatic crime coefficient is observing them committing a crime and not having their crime coefficient go up...anyone who got incorporated into the Sybil system had to have been flagged as a potential recruit because of a violent crime that got attention drawn towards them. An asymptomatic person who doesn't commit crimes is impossible to detect as the rules have been established. And lets be honest. The traits that the director listed as being useful for the Sybil system (genius+lack of empathy+ superiority complex + desire to observe people) sound like the ingredients to a serial killer.

The only logical conclusion we can draw is that the vast majority of the Sybil brains are latent criminals. EXTREME latent criminals.



It kinda makes me wonder about Choe's confidence in this bringing down the system. As Triple R said. Finding out that the "unbiased" system watching over everyone would be shocker enough. But Choe seemed to have such confidence that what he was recording would break the system. Almost as if he realized that these were probably latent criminal brains.


When you consider the disrespect this society has for people with bad hues, much less high crime coefficient...there really WOULD be rioting if people discovered the system was being operated by latent criminals like this.
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Old 2013-02-16, 22:21   Link #131
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So did he kill Touma's actual brain or just some downloaded copy?
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Old 2013-02-16, 23:10   Link #132
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Now I wonder who is the final boss now, Makishima or Sibyl system?
That's what I was wondering too, especially since Chief Cyborg is out of the way.

Or I have a feeling that Makishima and Ko form some kind of uneasy alliance to take out the SS.
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Old 2013-02-17, 01:03   Link #133
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That's a ludicrously disingenuous thing to say. Especially when they specifically point out that to the Sybil brains, "unique individuals who don't meet mankind's conventional standards=people with asymptomatic crime coefficient."
I'm the one going off the facts, you're just being presumptuous. That's not even stated in the episode.

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It kinda makes me wonder about Choe's confidence in this bringing down the system. As Triple R said. Finding out that the "unbiased" system watching over everyone would be shocker enough. But Choe seemed to have such confidence that what he was recording would break the system. Almost as if he realized that these were probably latent criminal brains.


When you consider the disrespect this society has for people with bad hues, much less high crime coefficient...there really WOULD be rioting if people discovered the system was being operated by latent criminals like this.
His confidence stems from the fact that Sibyl was presented as a scientifically objective system. It was just a matter of machines measuring people, without human ego involved. Unbiased. However, what he found revealed that it wasn't unbiased, since it was in fact run by human beings.
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Old 2013-02-17, 02:57   Link #134
Qilin
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And how exactly do you get off thinking that a cadre of semi mind reading ego maniacs isn't ripe for corruption?

Ideally when it comes to crime coefficient, the measurement should be based on purely on their likelyhood to commit criminal actions, without any personal bias. People can accept this as being fair when they think it's objective machines producing the crime coefficient readings. But what happens when you introduce the uncertainty of of Sybil actually being a small group of mind reading egomaniacs who think they're gods, and look down on normal people?

Think about Tomomi's conversation with Gino about rising crime coefficient. Tomomi's crime coefficient started rising not because of some criminal tendencies, but because he started to feel doubts about his job. His crime coefficient only stopped rising once he learned to *accept* Sybil. There has in fact been allot of talk throughout the series about how clear hues and low crime coefficients as if they were less related to violent/psychopahic/sociopathic tendencies, and more related to accepting Sybil, and Sybil not rejecting you...almost like Sybil was some kinda of temperamental entity that didn't like individuals who didn't adore it.

And now we know that Sybil isn't an impartial computer system. It's 250 human beings who think of themselves as gods, using their arbitrary intuition to decide who is a latent criminal. Now tell me. Are these people going to objectively judge crime coefficients of peaceful non violent citizens who might just happen to have some misgiving about the nature of the system? Or will they, as gods, be displeased when the puny mortals don't offer up unconditional devotion as a sacrifice?
I seems to me that your issue is more directed to how the power is distributed, and I'd agree with you if this society was established as anything but an authoritarian state. After all, given the latest episode, this is pretty much a dictatorship now, except with the power split among around 250 brains or so. Now, I have to reiterate that even dictatorships have their practical applications, especially for when swift, decisive decision-making is the priority. Governance is always a precarious balance between order and freedom, and leaning towards either extreme solves and brings up a different set of problems.

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What I put in bold is a totally unsubstantiated, and very counter-intuitive statement, imo.

How do you know they are not messing around the system for their own entertainment? At least one of these brains is that of a serial killer, and we know that Makishima (Sibyl's new star recruit) is often a horribly sadistic person with murderous tendencies (and Makishima himself is also arguably a serial killer). To think that none of these brains ever gets sadistic shits and giggles out of screwing up, if not outright destroying, people's lives is the heights of naivety, imo.

Then there's what Roger wrote.


This is an impressively monstrous system that Gen has conceived of, imo.
Continuing what I've been saying above, the most problematic limitation when it comes to totalitarian rule is the potential for corruption by concentrating power on a single point. That is why checks and balances are so important in any government. Aristocracy is an attempt to overcome these shortcomings. By dividing that absolute power amongst a group of elite individuals, judged by their abilities and technical merits, instead of a single dictator, a government can possess the diverse set of perspectives to solve problems relating to the society. Democracy is nice and all, but in a state defined by intellectual poverty, it's potential is drastically hindered. Well, that's not to say that aristocracy is perfect either (in fact, it suffers from many of the same flaws as authoritarian rule and democracy), but it's a governing system just like any other.

An interesting touch here is that Urobuchi completely robs these "aristocrats" metaphorically of their physical desires by taking away their very bodies. As such, the only desires left to them are those of an intellectual nature, to gradually attain perfection. And personally, the desire for omniscience is the purest form of desire that there is. I cannot see them messing with the system if it stands to endanger anything that the system already stands for, so I don't agree. Their loyalty to the principles of the system is absolute for the sole reason that their collective ego is directly contingent to the efficiency of the Sybil system in carrying out its role.

EDIT:

To label Makishima as a "serial killer" doesn't do him much justice. He's essentially an embodiment of Nietzche's Ubermensch, an individual who stands at the pinnacle of human values, capable of seeing the entire picture of everything. He's one of those few people who can see the fragile strings that keep society going indefinitely. If we imagine the collective to be composed of similar-minded individuals, then I don't see much wrong with it, from a pragmatic perspective.
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Last edited by Qilin; 2013-02-17 at 03:15.
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Old 2013-02-17, 04:12   Link #135
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IAn interesting touch here is that Urobuchi completely robs these "aristocrats" metaphorically of their physical desires by taking away their very bodies.
This is the sticking point between our views. You think without a body that a serial killer would no longer be a serial killer. While IMO the only part of a serial killer that commits crimes is the brain itself.

Why do you think desires came from the body? Do you think lust, hate, greed, and sadism cam from the pancreas? The liver? The kidneys?

Do you think hormones are the reason why crimes are committed? That If you take away the minor organs, the brain would become some kind of emotional logic unit?

I have no idea where you based that idea from. The brain is where criminal thoughts happen. Where higher orders to deceive happens. This has nothing to do with basic needs to eat or sleep. Rich people who have everything they ever need, still commit crimes of every sort from theft to violent crimes. Please, do explain why someone who gets the kicks seeing someone bleed out would suddenly become benign when becoming a brain in a box.
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Old 2013-02-17, 04:26   Link #136
Qilin
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This is the sticking point between our views. You think without a body that a serial killer would no longer be a serial killer. While IMO the only part of a serial killer that commits crimes is the brain itself.

Why do you think desires came from the body? Do you think lust, hate, greed, and sadism cam from the pancreas? The liver? The kidneys?

Do you think hormones are the reason why crimes are committed? That If you take away the minor organs, the brain would become some kind of emotional logic unit?
Yes, but what avenues are left for them to satisfy those desires without their physical bodies?

In a sense, I see this move as a means of sublimating those "unacceptable" desires into other forms, which directly leads to that superiority complex fed by the effectiveness of Sybil as a system. But nevertheless, Sybil would not be as efficient and complete a system if it wasn't for these things. The desire to kill, the desire to eat, and all similar desires have been sublimated into a desire to perfect the System's absolute control over human autonomy.

But really. I don't get the dominant perception towards Sybil as an aggregation of the minds of serial killers. People seem to put so much stress on Makishima's status as a "serial killer" when that very label is simply an afterthought, a side product, of his vision. He can see society for what it is, and he's decisive enough to sacrifice human lives just to sustain the notion of "order".

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Please, do explain why someone who gets the kicks seeing someone bleed out would suddenly become benign when becoming a brain in a box.
Within a certain context, a leader doesn't have to be benign. A leader just has to be decisive and pragmatic enough to make swift, severe judgments. It's all a matter of context.
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Old 2013-02-17, 04:53   Link #137
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Yes, but what avenues are left for them to satisfy those desires without their physical bodies?
What do you mean? If they enjoy watching someone bleed out and die as a human, they can just as easily enjoy watching someone bleed out and die as a brain in the box. They have POWER to do things. They make decisions. They can commit crimes the same way as before. They are NOT powerless, thats the point. They are in fact the opposite of powerless, as being Sibyl gives them more power than ever before in satisfying their perverse desires.
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The desire to kill, the desire to eat, and all similar desires have been sublimated into a desire to perfect the System's absolute control over human autonomy.
The desire to eat is NOTHING like the desire to kill. Because the desire to eat came from the body but the desire to kill came from the brain. And guess which part of the body is kept??

If I give you a serial killer and a hacksaw, which part of the killer would you remove in order to stop him from wanting to kill people?

A brain in a box, isolated, is someone who is imprisoned. A brain in a box that is connected to the function of governance and is told to make decisions for the country is NOT imprisoned.

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Within a certain context, a leader doesn't have to be benign. A leader just has to be decisive and pragmatic enough to make swift, severe judgments. It's all a matter of context.
A leader that isn't benign is a violent ruler. And a violent ruler who deceives his people by hiding his very existence is harmful to society.
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Old 2013-02-17, 05:04   Link #138
Qilin
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What do you mean? If they enjoy watching someone bleed out and die as a human, they can just as easily enjoy watching someone bleed out and die as a brain in the box. They have POWER to do things. They make decisions. They can commit crimes the same way as before. They are NOT powerless, thats the point. They are in fact the opposite of powerless, as being Sibyl gives them more power than ever before in satisfying their perverse desires.
Right. And you're assuming that the individuals who would be chosen to become part of the system would be so crass? Or perhaps you look at Makishima as such? If so, perhaps we should first begin by discussing Makishima's character interpretation?

At the very least, it would help us clarify each of our positions on the matter.

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The desire to eat is NOTHING like the desire to kill. Because the desire to eat came from the body
This is simply incorrect because hunger does indeed come from the brain. It can be manipulated in rats by simply altering expectations and conditioning.

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A leader that isn't benign is a violent ruler. And a violent ruler who deceives his people by hiding his very existence is harmful to society.
Once again, context. Societies can take many different forms as history often tells us. If you think that deception in itself is a bad thing, then I don't know what to tell you. This argument is one that spans decades or even centuries, and in the end, these things tend to all boil down to personal preference.
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Old 2013-02-17, 05:17   Link #139
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Right. And you're assuming that the individuals who would be chosen to become part of the system would be so crass? Or perhaps you look at Makishima as such? If so, perhaps we should first begin by discussing Makishima's character interpretation?

At the very least, it would help us clarify each of our positions on the matter.
Kozaburo Touma is a murderer, who killed presumably for enjoyment, as is Makishima. What is stopping him from creating some unpleasant situation for someone by manipulating the system, just for his own enjoyment?
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Old 2013-02-17, 05:18   Link #140
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Right. And you're assuming that the individuals who would be chosen to become part of the system would be so crass? Or perhaps you look at Makishima as such? If so, perhaps we should first begin by discussing Makishima's character interpretation?

At the very least, it would help us clarify each of our positions on the matter.
As others pointed out earlier, the selection criteria is based on finding criminals who's criminal intent is not detectable by the normal system.

There might well be nice people who are perfect for being Sibyl, but if they haven't committed any crimes then they would never be found.

Let me try to explain my position; you agree that a criminal brain in a box would lack outlets for their criminal behaviour, correct?

But being connected to Sibyl IS an outlet. The very ability to decide government policy and decisions IS the very outlet that allows criminal desires to express themselves. How do you justify your belief that a known criminal wouldn't commit crimes through the only thing he or she has power over?
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