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Old 2013-02-17, 02:21   Link #441
AnimeFan188
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Before procuring a new rifle, the military needs to decide what the next rifle round is
going to be.

Will it be case-telescoped, or caseless? 6.5mm, 6.8mm, or will they stick with 5.56mm?

Until this is settled, I don't see a new rifle program making much progress.
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Old 2013-02-17, 02:29   Link #442
kyp275
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Caseless would be such an outside shot that the asteroid that missed Earth by 17k miles the other day would look close by comparison

6.8mm is a very remote possbility IMO, but I just don't see them moving away from 5.56mm anytime soon due to weight/ammo count concern, especially since the new rounds seem to be performing well in theater.
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Old 2013-02-17, 02:38   Link #443
SaintessHeart
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The M16 may not be the most reliable weapon in the house, but it is quite accurate , lightweight and easy to handle as compared to other medium firearms I have handled (P90, MP5, SAR21). Tje lightweight of the ammo means I don't have to worry if the SAW gunner goes down.

What the 5.56 needs is some API variant. Illum rounds don't cut it if you want to destroy something you can't reach by shooting at it. And I don't trust my M203 to be a quiet loli in my arms.

The P90's round could be more useful it it had a longer range and larger mass.
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Old 2013-02-17, 02:41   Link #444
AnimeFan188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Caseless would be such an outside shot that the asteroid that missed Earth by 17k miles the other day would look close by comparison

6.8mm is a very remote possbility IMO, but I just don't see them moving away from 5.56mm anytime soon due to weight/ammo count concern, especially since the new rounds seem to be performing well in theater.

The next rifle will probably use the same ammo as the LSAT, for the sake of commonality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSAT_light_machine_gun

http://www.army.mil/article/80320/

So it'll be worth keeping an eye on that program.

Last edited by AnimeFan188; 2013-02-17 at 02:58.
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Old 2013-02-17, 03:01   Link #445
AnimeFan188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
What the 5.56 needs is some API variant. Illum rounds don't cut it if you want to destroy something you can't reach by shooting at it. And I don't trust my M203 to be a quiet loli in my arms.
What about the XM25?:

http://www.army.mil/article/87979/Ar...25__Punisher_/
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Old 2013-02-17, 14:38   Link #446
Renegade334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeFan188 View Post
The next rifle will probably use the same ammo as the LSAT, for the sake of commonality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSAT_light_machine_gun

http://www.army.mil/article/80320/

So it'll be worth keeping an eye on that program.
Not a certitude yet, as the LSAT is still under evaluation. The big source of interest in that caseless/telescopic round concept is the alluring potential of shearing a significant lot of pounds off the gunner's loadout (which in turn reduces gunner fatigue -> improves sharp-mindedness -> increases accuracy), but if the improved round exhibits ballistic properties inferior to that of a conventional, brass-cartridge round (if there is less propellant inside the caseless/telescopic round, resulting in lower muzzle energy -> shorter range and smaller stopping power), the project could be suspended and ultimately give birth to nothing but a nice, ephemeral dream. So far the LSAT shows good reliability and handling (slow rate of fire means greater control and thus accuracy, and possibly low jamming probability), but lethality is another affair - and I'm still waiting for reports on that aspect of the testing.

Additionally, there would be a LOT of procurement issues to address - making the transition from one bullet standard to another, procuring millions of those rounds (which right now are manufactured by a single company, which might create a monopoly controversy, unless the other manufacturers are granted production licenses to maintain market competition) to the regular troops, etc, etc.

By the time the cased telescopic/caseless tech gets all the kinks figured out (one of the major worries with caseless rounds was of the propellant misfiring in the chamber because of the accrued heat from the barrel), we'll probably have a new version of the AR15/AR18 platform (G36 and SCAR weapons directly draw inspiration from the AR18, which was Eugene Stoner's attempt to perfect the AR15) issued to the troops, who are still have very high confidence in the M4/M16 family. And the said confidence shows: most members of the new competition (referenced in this topic's previous page) are AR15/AR18 clones/derivatives. People are still clinging to things they're highly familiar with.

Now, back in the 1980s, the US Army kickstarted the ACR competition, through which they sought to replace the M16 with a significantly deadlier infantry rifle. Most competitors submitted really ingenious stuff like the Heckler & Koch G11 (actually the technological father of the LSAT LMG, since AAI bought the caseless technology from H&K), the Steyr-Mannlicher ACR (which fired flechettes) and the Colt ACR (essentially a tricked-out M16A3, except that each round fired two, telescopic bullets to create some sort of "double-whammy" effect)...and even then those prototypes still failed to convince the R&D guys that a significant leap in both reliability, practicality and lethality had been achieved.

The bigwigs at the Pentagon are probably waiting for some sort of wonderweapon that'll remind them of the difference they felt when they switched from the M14 to the M16 (and yes, I know about how the M16's technical immaturity in Vietnam [i.e. the gunpowder soot problem that caused the weapon to jam in the middle of a firefight] actually downplays the aforementioned difference). Until then, they'll stick with what they already have.


As for the XM25...that's a squad weapon for ranged engagements and barricade clearing/counter-sniping. Its usefulness decreases in close combat or within a city that has few, wide open areas to shoot across.
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Old 2013-02-17, 15:13   Link #447
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeFan188 View Post
I need something that can penetrate thin metal AND burn out whatever is behind it, i.e radios, transmitters, computers, when I have a suppressor fixed to my carbine.

The unsavoury options are to crawl across to the thing and destroy it by hand, or to fire a HEDP and blow and wake everything up. XM25 doesn't cut it, so nope.
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Old 2013-02-17, 17:07   Link #448
Renegade334
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Speaking of high-powered weapons, I wonder if something will eventually come out of this prototype (Modern Firearms profile). It's a step-up from the M240 (lighter, packs more punch), but I'm dubitative as to whether USAR/USMC/USN has a genuine need for it (they certainly do need firearms with longer range), as the M240 is still fairly popular among the troops and reportedly does its job well. The main purpose of this weapon is obviously to deliver sustained fire to very long ranges (>600m?) - something I can understand since skirmishes in Afghanistan often required long-barreled/high-caliber (>=7.62mm/.308W) firearms, but one should ask whether this task shouldn't be handed off to DMRs and precision rifles instead. At 600m and beyond, accuracy might be an issue, even if imprecise shots do still keep the enemy's heads down.

Besides, there should be a certain amount of trouble associated with adopting a poorly-known caliber (.338 Norma Magnum / 8.6x64mm) in a world dominated by 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm...
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Last edited by Renegade334; 2013-02-17 at 17:37.
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Old 2013-02-26, 00:38   Link #449
GundamFan0083
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Speaking of 5.56mm/.223, what do you ladies and gents think of the pullpup concept rifles such as the TAVOR?

It is my understanding that these types of weapons have better center of balance, ergonomics, and are more precise when fired.
Is that true?

Spoiler for large size image:
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Old 2013-02-26, 00:56   Link #450
YF19EX
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I by nature love the futuristic look of bullpups. But there is no undeniable doubt about its compactness while maintaining full length barrel is a key its success. They do balance better than a conventional rifle with most of the weight being at the shoulder since it contains most of the action. I have an MSAR-556 (AUG Clone) and its a great shooter. Still meets OAL as required in my state but its shorter (in handling and size) than my LMT M4 with a 16" barrel with the stock collapsed.

But there are draw backs to certain bullpup designs. Most bullpups put the ejection on the opposite side of the action. But it is normally level with your face. If you had to try to shoot with the opposing shoulder, you are more than likely going to get brass in the face. Certain bullpups like the FS2000, Keltec RFB, PS90/P90 tend to overcome these items because they eject forward in the cases of the FS2000, FRB or downward like the PS90s. I could go on, but needless to say the initial drawbacks have all but been eliminated or mitigated either by design or new style weapon manipulation skills specific to bullpup guns.

Here is MAC Youtube introduction into that specific rifle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEY1X...6YliUQ&index=1

I'm hoping to get my hands on that particular TAVOR before all this legislation comes to pass..
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Old 2013-02-26, 00:59   Link #451
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YF19EX View Post
I by nature love the futuristic look of bullpups. But there is no undeniable doubt about its compactness while maintaining full length barrel is a key its success. They do balance better than a conventional rifle with most of the weight being at the shoulder since it contains most of the action. I have an MSAR-556 (AUG Clone) and its a great shooter. Still meets OAL as required in my state but its shorter (in handling and size) than my LMT M4 with a 16" barrel with the stock collapsed.

But there are draw backs to certain bullpup designs. Most bullpups put the ejection on the opposite side of the action. But it is normally level with your face. If you had to try to shoot with the opposing shoulder, you are more than likely going to get brass in the face. Certain bullpups like the FS2000, Keltec RFB, PS90/P90 tend to overcome these items because they eject forward in the cases of the FS2000, FRB or downward like the PS90s. I could go on, but needless to day the initial drawbacks have all but been eliminated or mitigated either by design or new style weapon manipulation skills specific to bullpup guns.

I'm hoping to get my hands on that particular TAVOR before all this legislation comes to pass..
Thank you very much for that info.
I want a TAVOR very badly.
I love IMI weapons, they are rugged, reliable, and shoot well.
Hope I can get one soon.
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Old 2013-02-26, 13:28   Link #452
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGTuPmZ21r0&sns=em
Here's more on said rifle.
I kind of prefer the AUG myself.
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Old 2014-01-11, 16:40   Link #453
Renegade334
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*casts necromancy spell on thread*

Ahem. Guess who's back after a hiatus? (caused by his main weapons supplier and sponsor getting murdered and the BATF later raiding his house and seizing his firearms stash)

YouTube
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

ROFL. If I hadn't already known how weird pyrotechnics could look when captured by high-speed cameras, I'd have accused this guy of using a cheap VFX program to embellish his video. ;p
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Old 2014-05-26, 23:14   Link #454
TinyRedLeaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Looking the other way and pretend there's no problem while shouting "lolguns" is hardly the way to address the problem.
And how exactly did the authorities "look away" this time round?

The guy's parents reported his disturbing behaviour.

The police were concerned enough to check on him. And on interviewing Rodgers, they found him to be generally okay and had no probable cause to search his apartment.

The people responsible have done all they could reasonably be expected to do to flag a potential danger.

It's always easy in hindsight to claim that more could be done to ensure the "mentally ill" get the help they need. In fact, Rodger was already getting help, from "multiple" psychiatrists.

What more do you propose to do to help your mentally disturbed compatriots without stigmatising them further?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Bottom line is, when you have a proliferation of weapons, crimes being committed by those weapons is ultimately unavoidable...

Also, what many also does not like to admit, or even realize, is that when you decide to ban lawful firearms, especially in a world that's full of them, you're inevitably condemning some people to be raped/killed as well, by taking away their only realistic means of defense.
And the contradiction you make here is so typical of gun advocates.

The proliferation of weapons in the United States is not unavoidable. A certain powerful lobby group made it a reality.

The mistake you make is assuming that the only way to solve the multiplicity of guns in your country is to have even more guns.

So, what can I say? It's the same old argument, which as you pointed out, will never go anyway. You want a civilian arms race in your country, you're very much welcome to it.
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Old 2014-05-27, 00:23   Link #455
kyp275
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
And how exactly did the authorities "look away" this time round?
Didn't say they did, that was specifically referring to you.

Quote:
What more do you propose to do to help your mentally disturbed compatriots without stigmatising them further?
The two goes hand-in-hand, you can't have one without the other. A well-educated population would be a starter, but good luck with that one.

Quote:
And the contradiction you make here is so typical of gun advocates.
And the assumptions up the wazoos by you is so typical of your type.

Quote:
The proliferation of weapons in the United States is not unavoidable. A certain powerful lobby group made it a reality.
The proliferation of weapons in the US began BEFORE the US was a nation. Moreover, the idea that you can stop it is downright laughable. The US have almost 4,000 miles of border that's more porous than piece of shredded rag, with half of that by Mexico. The idea that you can remotely hope to stem the flow of illegal weapons is pure fantasy. This means your so-called ban will only affect the law-abiding citizens, while having negligible affect on the criminals and the gangs, which are responsible for the majority of gun deaths in the US to begin with.

But I guess to you, as long as the occasional good guys-turn-nuts will have a slightly harder time to get his hands on a gun, it'll be worth it to make sure that tens of millions of other actual good guys can never have one.

Quote:
]The mistake you make is assuming that the only way to solve the multiplicity of guns in your country is to have even more guns.
Nope, wrong again. I don't think the way to solve the "multiplicity of guns" is to have more guns, because I don't see it as a problem to begin with.

Quote:
So, what can I say? It's the same old argument, which as you pointed out, will never go anyway. You want a civilian arms race in your country, you're very much welcome to it.
Unfortuantely, in order to have a proper discussion on the issue, it requires proper knowledge and education on the subject on both sides, much like the issue with mental health. As far as I can see, you have little to no reference on the issues with guns/violence/crime in the US, so what exactly are you basing your arguments on? Civilian arms race? don't make me laugh, if anything, the number of gun owners are actually decreasing.

Please, do come to Detroit and tell everyone that the cure to Detroit's gun crimes is to ban guns, and I'll get a stopwatch to check how many seconds it'll take before you're laughed out of the state.

Last edited by kyp275; 2014-05-27 at 00:36.
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Old 2014-05-27, 01:04   Link #456
TinyRedLeaf
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And you most probably missed my post in reply to Triple_R's question about my stance on gun control.

Gun control, mind you, not a gun ban. I notice, nonetheless, that many gun advocates don't think they're any different.

Insurance, more stringent training, better tracking of ammunition sales, or perhaps even a mandatory revival of militias.

Those are just some out of many common sense suggestions for coping with the gun-supply problem in the US.

Background checks aren't helping much, as it seems no amount of past behaviour is ever going to be a 100 per cent accurate predictor of future behaviour.

And in any case, unless you make it a federal law for every mental-health practitioner to log every potentially dangerous case to a national database that's accessible to legal gun dealers, I don't see how more background checks are going to effectively sieve out potentially psychotic individuals.

But you know what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
I don't think the way to solve the "multiplicity of guns" is to have more guns, because I don't see it as a problem to begin with.
Then what can I say? Only what I've already said. It's an American problem. And if Americans believe the status quo is okay, well, I say you guys own it.
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Old 2014-05-27, 07:15   Link #457
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Probably the funnest day I've had in a while...


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Old 2014-05-27, 07:32   Link #458
kyp275
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
And you most probably missed my post in reply to Triple_R's question about my stance on gun control.

Gun control, mind you, not a gun ban. I notice, nonetheless, that many gun advocates don't think they're any different.
Except your ideas of gun control (armories) effectively destroys any possibilities of them being used for self-defense. What are you gonna do when you’re being assaulted in the street or being invaded in your home? Tell the criminals to hold on and stay right there while you make a quick trip to your local armory, get your weapon, and come back and then resume their attack?

To me, this demonstrates that you do not consider self-defense to be a legitimate usage of firearms.

Quote:
Insurance, more stringent training, better tracking of ammunition sales, or perhaps even a mandatory revival of militias.
Insurance – this is literally nothing more than another tax on ownership. Encourage responsible use of weapons? What, do you seriously believe that having to pay a monthly premium for an insurance plan is somehow a bigger deterrent than prison? Insurance doesn’t work the way you think they do.

Tracking of ammunition sales – In the wake of the whole NSA debacle, a snowball has a better chance in hell than something like this passing, nevermind the uselessness of such a tracking program. What exactly are you hoping to accomplish here. Here’s the thing, ammunitions are purchased in bulk all the time, primarily for cost/availability issues, especially this past decade. Nevermind that hundreds (or thousands for those with bigger wallets) are something easily consumed in a single range session.

The problem with this line of thought is that the people that who put this out there doesn’t realize that ammo purchases by the hundreds or thousands are not rare, but rather common.

Quote:
Background checks aren't helping much, as it seems no amount of past behaviour is ever going to be a 100 per cent accurate predictor of future behaviour.
There are issues with the current background check system, but that aside, this statement strikes me as downright bizarre. The future isn’t written in stone, there is no such thing as past behavior being an iron-clad indicator of future behavior, not to mention this is exactly the kind of mindset that would stigmatize those with mental health problems – something you purportedly doesn’t think should happen.

Quote:
Then what can I say? Only what I've already said. It's an American problem. And if Americans believe the status quo is okay, well, I say you guys own it.
Funny, I don’t remember running to you begging for you to solve our problem.

I would not comment with much degree of certainty on gun control policies in Singapore, because my limited knowledge of that country, what makes you think you can do so with the US policies? Because frankly you have shown little understanding of the facts on the ground, and even less grasp of the context of the situation, and have displayed little knowledge on the subject itself. That much is obvious considering how you’ve done little more than continue to hang on to your talking points, instead of actually addressing any of the points I’ve brought up.
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Old 2014-05-27, 23:37   Link #459
YF19EX
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Originally Posted by grylsyjaeger View Post
Probably the funnest day I've had in a while...


AI AW50f Anti-Material Rifle 12.7x99mm (AMR)


AI AW 7,62x51mm NATO (SR-98)
I have been behind many precision rifles as of late. Remington 700, Steyr SSG69, GA Precisions, Sako TRG etc.

Nothing puts a bigger smile on my face than being behind an Accuracy International. Although the weight is heavy, they are what I consider the finest factory precision rifles ever made. Military tough, with custom rifle accuracy.
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Old 2014-05-28, 07:21   Link #460
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Yeah man I agree.

The opportunity to use that AW as cemented my next purchase as an AW in 7,62x51.
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