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Old 2013-02-16, 00:37   Link #2921
Sansker
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But they have an inferior range over shooting attacks. To the point where Vita was in range of Nanoha's blast in their fight in the alien world she was beyond the normal rank of a bind spell which the mask guy use showing he is rather good with them. And I know I always talk about what you can do with the styles here we are using a particular person, Corona, who I am not sure has any particular tallest with binding spells so what I mean was that if the other mage is already in the air could blast Corona without having her being able to use her best attacks which are all land and close range base.
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Old 2013-02-16, 05:48   Link #2922
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We have seen binds used at longer ranges often enough.
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Old 2013-02-16, 09:57   Link #2923
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The thing that's long bothered me about long-range binds is how they don't need to visibly travel from Point M(age) to Point T(arget) like any other long-range spell.

And if one could make a projectile bind invisible, why not a projectile bullet? Or a chain bind.
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Old 2013-02-16, 11:21   Link #2924
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You can, and it has been done several times.
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Old 2013-02-16, 11:33   Link #2925
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we have seem binds use mostly in close range. And when we see or rather we didn't see a projectile spell. All spells shine with the mage magic color.
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Old 2013-02-16, 11:43   Link #2926
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It's probably fairly difficult to make your spells invisible. At least, it would take probably take more effort and mana to suppress the color and turn it invisible. When fighting a tough opponent, it is probably not a smart move to expend additional mana and effort to do so. Not when a spell can usually travel fast enough to hit your opponent anyway (or force them to shield against it).

The next best move seems to be to set up a spell in a specific place, and then lure your prey into it. Chrono does this with Fate, setting up a bind spell behind him, knowing she'd fly into it when she attempted to attack him from behind. Then again, Chrono is highly skilled.
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Old 2013-02-16, 12:02   Link #2927
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Binds seem to only be notice when they are about to activate. But bullets and the rest are always shining
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Old 2013-02-16, 12:50   Link #2928
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While binds are mostly used close range in the show, we have seen them used at longer ranges. Heck, the first time Nanoha used a bind was a long range one.

The term "delayed bind" has been used in the manga years ago. There's no reason whatsoever that this is limited to spells, so delayed shots should be possible as well. In fact, doesn't Nanoha surprise Vita with a Divine Shooter that came seemingly out of nowhere during their first clash?
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Old 2013-02-16, 13:38   Link #2929
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Well you have a point there with the range but they tend to remain close to each other in the air and is hard to tell the distance between them. Terms as “long range” can be relative to the range the person has on its own attacks. Binds at long range were considered to show an incredible talent in the show so far.

The shots however can’t be use in “delay” version I think. The binds seems to be create when particles of magic come together over the target while magic bullets are spheres of energy that need to be given form and size before being release. Also, in the anime Nanoha fires a Divine Buster while charging her magic power with Raising Heart. The beam didn’t just appear and hit Vita, there was a small time spend casting it before using it.
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Old 2013-02-16, 14:33   Link #2930
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Divine Shooter, not Divine Buster. And I don't recall long-range binds ever having been indicated to be a show if incredible skill.
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Old 2013-02-16, 15:46   Link #2931
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I check the episode and what happen is that Nanoha creates the bullets when she activates Raising Heart and fires on Vita. This one avoids the bullets and then Nanoha call them back to attack from behind. But those weren’t cast out of nowhere or just appears like binds. Also is say when Nanoha fights Vita on the alien planet and she is bind by the mask man that she never consider a person could put a bind on her from such distance.
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Old 2013-02-16, 16:11   Link #2932
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Just to add some information to this...

Agito left a bind and a fireball spell in Signum's hands. They could both count as delayed spells, since the prep work was done, and all Signum had to do was release them.

Nanoha was quite surprised in A's episode 7, when masked man bound her from a long distance. Although Vita was also surprised at the range Nanoha could attack from. Subjective points of view, I suppose.
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Old 2013-02-16, 17:21   Link #2933
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Indeed but with the shots I will say they can't be use as binds. You know that you don't notice the bind until this one already traps you or a few seconds prior that. Shooting spells need to be launch from the caster or at least give form so they can be use and they tend to appear close to the mage. But then again we saw Fate's Phalanx shift where dozens of mage spheres did appear and some a little away from her but I will say that you need to cast them close.
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Old 2013-02-17, 11:37   Link #2934
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Indeed but with the shots I will say they can't be use as binds. You know that you don't notice the bind until this one already traps you or a few seconds prior that. Shooting spells need to be launch from the caster or at least give form so they can be use and they tend to appear close to the mage. But then again we saw Fate's Phalanx shift where dozens of mage spheres did appear and some a little away from her but I will say that you need to cast them close.
You assume that. And you know what they say when you assume.

By the way, Nanoha turned a Round Shield into a bind on Einhart. It wouldn't be far off to presume you could turn bullets into binds as well. Nanoha's blaster bits can bind people (see Vivio fight).
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Old 2013-02-17, 11:54   Link #2935
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With no actual cannon we can only assume there Kaijo. I know about the shield and the blaster bits but those are a defensive spell and part of Raising Heart. Besides shields and bullets are different. At least I don’t see a bullet transforming in to a bind. The spell Nanoha use on Einhart is Binding Shield s type of spell she already use on Signum in the special After Days in the StrikerS manga, so we are not sure if that combination is possible with a bullet spell which, by the way, will actually beat the idea of invisible spells. You will see and avoid the bullet easier than the invisible bind.
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Old 2013-02-17, 12:52   Link #2936
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Thing about the binds, they're only invisible while in their delayed state. The moment they activate they become visible. The same thing would go for bullets.
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Old 2013-02-17, 13:22   Link #2937
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I know and to be fair I think they actually do that. I mean the bullets just appear in the air after all. But I think this might have to do with how they are made. Let me explain. The binds are focusing the mana in to rings or chains, they do have a “solid” form. A bullet doe have a form but the idea is to unleash the energy in them when they hit the target not to form in to a solid object, most of the time, so maybe that is why they need to create them in front of them, they unleash power in a simple form and then throw it. Faster and relatively simpler than creating the chain or the ring of the bind.

Also, so far, all magic always needs light to operate. I mean any time a mage use magic this always have his/her magic color. Even Teana’s invisible spell needs her to create a magic circle that shines and even has sound effects. So maybe because magic does need a visual construction in some point “invisible” spells are not really possible. Of course that leaves the binds without mention but there I really don’t know what to think. Is not clear how the spell can be delay and from which distance or how they even take form so really the speculation there can make any idea to make as much sense as other so who knows? I think that just because Binds can be perform in that delay state and send in the enemy without being seen that doesn’t mean a bullet will be the same.
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Old 2013-02-17, 14:27   Link #2938
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In my Future Tense fic, I have Teana firing off some bullets. When Nanoha uses a Round Shield to block them, instead of exploding into nothingness, they simply explode into chains that arc around the shield to grab Nanoha. Essentially a delayed bind masked as a bullet. Make your opponent think you are doing one thing, while you do another.

Consider that a lot of what you think to be limits on magic, might not actually be limits down the road. Tsuzuki can easily write someone doing something that no one else has done before (such as bullets exploding into chain binds or something) and it is treated as normal... there just hasn't been a case where someone had the forethought, training, or opportunity to use such a spell. Even hard limits can be overcome down the road with simple explanations of "someone's rare skill" or "someone is talented that way" or "someone found a different way to calculate magic spells to do that" or "someone found a lost logia maguffin."

So consider the purpose behind the explanations you are making, because for my fics, if I need a character to be able to do something, I can find a way. Hell, I worked time travel into one of my fics, and that was pretty much stated to be impossible, but I managed to work within the confines of the series to accomplish it (though there is room for debate on it).
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Old 2013-02-17, 14:47   Link #2939
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I read Future Tense. Good fic. But back to your point Kaijo I think you show just the reason why anything can fit there. Poorly explain background. Really I can make a character do almost anything I need because the limits of what magic can or can’t accomplish aren’t clear. So really having one character do whatever the plot needs him or her to do is actually a bad thing on my book (Look how Sister Snach just happen to be able to go through walls like Sein. Talking about convenience) and hell, time travel stop to be impossible when the game GoD have characters from different times all come together.

But let’s not talk about if is good or bad and focus on the technical sides. Magic is a force that is base on using energy to perform effects through mental calculation. I will say that the idea Teana does in you fic Kaijo is possible and a smart move from her. Those were not magic bullets but visible binds or she send the bind spell with the bullets, you know what she does but we can explain it in different ways. But we are talking about doing the opposite here. Can a magic bullet be invisible or activate in a delay stay so it can appear out of the blue from behind the opponent? I go with now because in the end the bullet needs to take form and then be fire and while taking form it will be easy to notice, not to mention the bullet needs to be power by mana, which is easier to do if the thing is create close to you and will have to be visible. At least I am going with that, room for debate is open there.
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Old 2013-02-17, 16:09   Link #2940
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
I read Future Tense. Good fic. But back to your point Kaijo I think you show just the reason why anything can fit there. Poorly explain background. Really I can make a character do almost anything I need because the limits of what magic can or canít accomplish arenít clear. So really having one character do whatever the plot needs him or her to do is actually a bad thing on my book (Look how Sister Snach just happen to be able to go through walls like Sein. Talking about convenience) and hell, time travel stop to be impossible when the game GoD have characters from different times all come together.
Teleportation magic was clearly established as possible in season 1, although it was called "movement magic." Why, then, was Schach having such an ability somehow "bad" when it had been established before that such things were possible? And throughout StrikerS, they Carim repeatedly had people go with Schach because "she could get them back quickly." It was hinted at before.

You might almost call such physically-defying effects "magic" or something.

I don't want to get into a debate about my fic here, as it isn't the place. But yes, you *can* do almost anything you want, as long as it is set up decently enough. Teana's bullet binds were within the realm of possibility already, and didn't need to be set up. Now, if Yuuno is suddenly an expert with planet-destroying beams, we'll have an issue, but even that can work if it is properly set up. The only questions with my fic, are if I set up the new things I did well enough. And mostly, I think I did. Though I admit there are a few things I would probably edit or change when I go back through it again.

But you kinda hit at another thing with limits... Obviously, even a fic would need limits, because unless you establish them, your readers will question why you aren't doing something with a magic you set up. Even though I used time travel, I was careful to set limits on when and where it could possibly be done. Otherwise, readers would question why time travel hadn't been attempted by anyone in the main cast.

So, new magic is entirely possible, as long as the limits are reasonably designed. It's all a question of "Does it work within the fic?" Or, alternatively, "Is it a possibility that Tsuzuki can use in the future?" About all we can say at the moment, is just what we know can be done, because we have seen them done. So, for me personally, I'd be very hesitant about defining limits; because it is quite likely Tsuzuki will blow past me by introducing something that does ignore a limit, and I wouldn't have seen it coming because my mind was closed to it.

You also have to realize that we are dealing with sci-fi. One particular rule of it is: "no one ever dies in sci fi." Why? Because they can always come back as a clone, or an alternate reality self, or come back to life via some articial means, or it could be revealed that some fancy-schmancy effect was used to make it look like they died. So if you can't even take death for granted (essentially a limit on life itself), then you can't take limits on magic for granted. The only thing that matters is whether it works within the work itself, and whether it comes off as cheap, stupid or a cop-out.
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