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Old 2013-02-17, 17:38   Link #2941
Sansker
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One thing is teleport and another is going through walls. Being able to “get them back” could me she was superfast or she can, in fact, teleport so I call it bad because that magic just happen to appear when the character need it. Is just too convenience to tie everything up at the end so I call it bad written and not “good use of magic” there with Schach and Sein. When you already set things poorly and then use that to resolve a situation you clearly didn’t knew how else to resolve I think we are for lazy and not creativity and the lazy route is always going to get some criticism but enough about that, we can discuss it in the StrikerS thread if you wish to elaborate on it Kaijo.

I have no problems with any action the characters perform in your fic from the logic point of view. At least not with any technical detail so, maybe if you rewrite the fic or something we can talk about this in detail. But you do bring the problem with limits, something I also faced while writing my own fic. You see my main problem was that I decide to go with using the Force setting and the Eclipse virus. Now since I am faster than the manga itself I reach a part where I have to explain things we really don’t know about the Eclipse virus and Dividers so I decide to just go with it. You see the accuracy of a fic with poor explain background is never going to be 100%. The author can pull anything he wants because he sets such unclear rules about magic but if he himself doesn’t follow some limits will break your suspension of disbelief.

In the end I just went to make the limits I assume as rational and explain them to complete my story. Maybe some of them can proof to not be the case but when you are doing it you must decide. I am all for open your mind but sometimes you have to make up and take a decision.

And this is a magical girl show, or at least it was, with science-fantasy elements to it that want to be science-fiction. And while you can see characters cheat death (For that there aren’t better example than comics actually. How many times Superman alone has die already? And yet there is the guy, still around). However we have seen this show has clear limits on death with no character ever being able to come back from the grave with just one case it did happen. But dead here tends to be really bad news, unlike Dragon Ball.

I must say I agree with your final thoughts about limits in magic. My problem is that at times I feel this unclear background makes most new things that are just happening when we need to feel cheap, stupid or a cop-out. If the rules aren’t clear then how can I say what can and can’t be done? I can change the rules to resolve a situation and then change them again, just like the time travel in GoD: time travel is impossible but now it is possible because we want cameos from the manga series. Tell me that isn’t cheap. The robot sisters could be from another world and be done with it but without some time travel stuff Vivio, Ein, Thoma and Lily could not take part on this and sell more copies.

In then I think it comes down to execution and explanations. The series loves to have half ass explanations that allows all sort of theories and ideas of how things work. That is why I think we need to realize that before calling something impossible.
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Old 2013-02-17, 18:06   Link #2942
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Kyrie and Amitie are from the future.

When it comes to time travel, always assume the user is from the future.

It always makes sense that way.
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Old 2013-02-17, 18:09   Link #2943
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I know that but I mean that the two didn't need to come from the future and the only reason for that is so their time travel thing could be use to bring the other characters from the manga in to the past. When we already say time travel is impossible with magic.
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Old 2013-02-17, 18:15   Link #2944
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
I know that but I mean that the two didn't need to come from the future and the only reason for that is so their time travel thing could be use to bring the other characters from the manga in to the past. When we already say time travel is impossible with magic.
Chrono said it was impossible for Precia to travel through time with the Jewel Seeds that she was using, yes.

However, that doesn't mean that someone, in a far future date, doesn't develop a spell to travel through time and left notes about it somewhere.

And, let's be honest, Sansker, if Kyrie and Amitie came from another planet in the same time as A's, then another problem arises, why aren't the Bureau recruiting them?

As much as the whole "bringing Vivio, Einhart, Touma and Lily back in time" thing is stupid (and I admit that), having them exist in normal time (not the future) creates new plot holes.
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Old 2013-02-17, 18:21   Link #2945
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That can easy be solve by the TSAB already not giving a crap for other planets with problems. Like that place where Teana's assistant in Sound Stage X came from which was at war and nobody care. So, there you go. The two little cyborgs come from a planet nobody cares about and need help so they need the thing from the Book of the Purple Sky (talking about stupid things, that name is just awful). There plot resolve and not stupid cameo from manga characters that in the end did nothing more than help to sell more copies of the video game and their managas.
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Old 2013-02-17, 18:47   Link #2946
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Sansk, the TSAB does care. That's why Runessa is currently on Mid, because she was saved by TSAB personnel. It's just that the planet she was living on was in the middle of a civil war. That's an internal political conflict, not something an external force can just jump in and stop.
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Old 2013-02-17, 18:54   Link #2947
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It is something an external force can enter and stop. The TSAB is not the United Federation of Planets, so really going by that logic they should have done something. They even exercise their authority in non-administrated worlds which should be away from their jurisdiction and have their own laws and governments so really they not helping that planet is out of a sense of not caring. And even if they do care who says they can or will help. If the planet was like a horrible land like the robots says it was, what kind of idiot will want to risk repairing it? Maybe the TSAB offer them to move out but the robots want to repair the planet. So really even there they plot can be done without impossible time travel magic rule being break.
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Old 2013-02-17, 19:01   Link #2948
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IIRC, they offered to help deal with the civil war on that planet. The people there also told them not to, so they didn't.
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Old 2013-02-17, 19:06   Link #2949
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No I am sure they didn't help because that was the idea, I belive, behind Runessa's plot. She wanted to make Mid-Childa suffer becuase the TSAB didn't help her world. Otherwise why she or the other guy will be attacking Cranaggan?
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Old 2013-02-17, 19:33   Link #2950
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Quote:
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No I am sure they didn't help because that was the idea, I belive, behind Runessa's plot. She wanted to make Mid-Childa suffer becuase the TSAB didn't help her world. Otherwise why she or the other guy will be attacking Cranaggan?
Perception is a funny thing, see, the thing is, Runessa grew up in war, and her father and her hated the fact that people who grew up on Mid-childa didn't have to experience it so thoroughly like she did. "Why do they get to live pleasant lives while I'm suffering?"

Basically, Orussa's the East coast of Africa, entrenched in Civil Wars, plenty of guns to go around, but not enough food for everyone.
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Old 2013-02-17, 19:39   Link #2951
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Wow... the plot is actually weaker than I first realize it. That sure is a good sign. In any case that doesn't matter, back to the original point, which again we miss talking about other things, the game GoD have a time travel stuff for not good reason other than set Vivio, Ein, Thoma and Lily in the game as part of the story. And I hate to say that because I did think the game story isn't that bad but on the technical side of things the time travel was magically impossible. Don't think that the advance tech from the TSAB could really be mistaken in what sounds like a rule of magic itself. So really again, poorly explain background that allows this kind of things.
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Old 2013-02-17, 19:41   Link #2952
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It is something an external force can enter and stop.
Yes, of course. That is why we certainly got that mess in Syria sorted out in a week after it started. To assume you can just walk in and solve a civil war is ridiculous.

Seriously, civil wars are nasty business, and this is a war spanning the entire world. It's one thing to covertly try and save a world that knows nothing of magic from a rogue Lost Logia, it's another to directly interfere with a world and get involved in a war. There is a crapton more issues involved in that, both direct ones such as where would the TSAB get the consistent military power required to wage a full scale war? Would they even the able to drum up enough forces? Would they be able to sustain the pressure war brings to manpower and economics? And indirect ones, such as the political consequences of the TSAB muscling its way in an internal conflict.

The TSAB doesn't rule the multiverse. We know that there are areas outside the TSAB influence where other people wave the scepter of power. This means that the TSAB can't just do whatever they want, wherever they want. They do have limitations.

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And I hate to say that because I did think the game story isn't that bad but on the technical side of things the time travel was magically impossible. Don't think that the advance tech from the TSAB could really be mistaken in what sounds like a rule of magic itself. So really again, poorly explain background that allows this kind of things.
Again, just because time travel is impossible now doesn't mean it will always be impossible. A couple of hundred years ago people would laugh at you if you claimed humans would once fly in the sky, and look where we are now.

Chrono's claim was based on the knowledge they had at that time. And yes, during A's time travel is impossible. During the Florian's time, many years in the future, it is not. But time travel being, y'know, time travel, they can travel back in time and arrive at a point where time travel technology does not exist.
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Old 2013-02-17, 19:52   Link #2953
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All the questions about if the TSAB can hold its ground have the same answer: maybe. I mean this guys have giant space ships and armies fighting nothing so how is a global scale war going to be a problem? Really here we enter the realm of assumption because we don’t know for sure. The TSAB looks heavily militarized so I can assume that mean their army must be impressive. And we don’t know if the other worlds have forces or even if there is other large multi worlds alliances. We never see them. Again falls down that either way is possible.

And I know about, in the future, kind of thing you are bringing there. That is the only reason why I think the time travel itself is not that stupid as concept but how it was use and how it contradicts the series itself is still there. Again, poorly explain background. And when most things become possible because such background then I am starting to think the author doesn’t really care.
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Old 2013-02-17, 20:04   Link #2954
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Or maybe you're just over-thinking it.

Why doesn't the TSAB get involved with politics on the planets themselves?

Dude, that's just... NASTY when you get into it.

Think of the Vietnam and Korean Conflicts, man and you can see what happens if one outside force gets involved with conflicts that don't directly affect other people.

Suddenly everyone gets involved.

As for Time Travel, again, what's possible now isn't always possible in the future.


BTW, did the game ever specify if they were using magic or technology to jump back in time?
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Old 2013-02-17, 20:15   Link #2955
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All the questions about if the TSAB can hold its ground have the same answer: maybe. I mean this guys have giant space ships and armies fighting nothing so how is a global scale war going to be a problem? Really here we enter the realm of assumption because we don’t know for sure. The TSAB looks heavily militarized so I can assume that mean their army must be impressive. And we don’t know if the other worlds have forces or even if there is other large multi worlds alliances. We never see them. Again falls down that either way is possible.
Giant space ships aren't going to magically solve wars. That will involve sending troops down bellow. And your assumption on the TSAB's power is wrong. You may have slightly forgotten, most of those troops are... kinda busy managing the TSAB's own territories. That's why the Arthra was the only ship available to deal with something as stupidly powerful as the goddamned Book of Darkness. The best they could do was fit it with a big gun, because there simply weren't any other ships available to help. Hell, one of Regius' motivations for working on the cyborg programs is because the TSAB is simply lacking in manpower.

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And I know about, in the future, kind of thing you are bringing there. That is the only reason why I think the time travel itself is not that stupid as concept but how it was use and how it contradicts the series itself is still there. Again, poorly explain background. And when most things become possible because such background then I am starting to think the author doesn’t really care.
It. Doesn't. Contradict. Anything. Chrono was right, time travel was impossible when he said it. It isn't during the time of the Florians.

No contradiction.

Also, while you wail on I might remind you that the Nanohaverse is actually one of the more detailed franchises out there. Yes, the background might still have plenty of gaps of knowledge, yes there are contradictions here and there and no, it most certainly isn't the biggest universe out there, but to say the author "doesn't really care" when the Nanohaverse vastly outsizes quite a few other shows out there is laughable really.
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Old 2013-02-17, 20:17   Link #2956
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if Kyrie and Amitie came from another planet in the same time as A's, then another problem arises, why aren't the Bureau recruiting them?
Because the sisters can say "No thanks", and the Bureau can't legally enslave them. Perhaps not even try them for any crimes.

Fate and the Wolkenritter voluntarily recognized and surrendered to the Bureau's authority, even though none of them were its citizens.

What can the Bureau do to transgressors who belong to unadministered worlds, especially when the "crimes" take place on an unadministered world? The Florian sisters would at least need to have been causing trouble on a Bureau world for the Bureau to legally arrest them.

I could be wrong, though.


Quote:
having them exist in normal time (not the future) creates new plot holes.
Holes that could still possibly be patched up. Especially when you don't drag Vivio and crew into things.

Among other things, if the TSAB can't arrest or imprison the Florians, they can't detain the Materials.

Yuri might be a Lost Logia, but she's also a person, which means she can't be locked up either.

If that's all true, then the four of them are free to go with the Florians, and Chrono can't stop them.
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Old 2013-02-17, 20:19   Link #2957
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Keroko, Sansker apparently thinks that the Sound Stages and Manga info (as well as the DVD booklets) reeks of "lazy storytelling".

Nevermind the fact that Gurren Lagann, Code Geass and even Gundam does that kind of stuff all the time.

See, Japan LOVES their Radio Dramas for information.

And, personally, while it annoys the hell out of me (I'd rather get it as OVAs), I can understand it if you look at it from the perspective of it's just extra episodes that didn't get animated.

Hell, I remember Dungeons and Dragons from the 80s, the final episode was only aired as a radio drama, never animated.
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Old 2013-02-17, 20:20   Link #2958
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We are all over thinking this. You to explain what happen in there as logical and me to say why I think is weird and not really thought out. In then end what I say and what you guys say are just fans interpretations of the actions in the plot. Just by going with the Star Trek logic here I can remember like half of a dozen times the Enterprise stop a civil war, so really compare it to the horrible results this have take in other parts is nothing. There are also examples of massacres and horrible war crimes because nobody help or care about civil wars and they just sit in their asses and do nothing.

Getting in to a civil war is not nasty at all, is call doing something. Helping peace conferences, maybe get negotiations in the move, talk with both sides and see if you can get them to agree on something, offer help to people that are suffering from the war, offer evacuation so they can go to other planets where they can live without war, etc. Really just ignore a conflict because doesn’t affect you is worse. But enough of the Sound Stage X plot. We can talk about that in its own thread and the political stuff better to ignore it all together.

And I guess you mean the last phrase backwards: what is impossible now is possible in the future. Yes, I get that. And you are right I just say they did say magic can not be use for time travel but I don’t think they ever say what bring them to the past. Must be a horrible tech because it also bring others from other time periods so who knows what else was bring in the past.
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Old 2013-02-17, 20:23   Link #2959
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Holes that could still possibly be patched up. Especially when you don't drag Vivio and crew into things.

Among other things, if the TSAB can't arrest or imprison the Florians, they can't detain the Materials.

Yuri might be a Lost Logia, but she's also a person, which means she can't be locked up either.

If that's all true, then the four of them are free to go with the Florians, and Chrono can't stop them.
The problem that I gotta point out is even if the Bureau doesn't do anything to Yuri, the Materials or the Florians, what's to stop someone like Jail, who, as you must remember, *IS* running around during A's, from doing stuff?

Combat Cyborg program could be based off of Kyrie and Amitie, but then why weren't the Numbers better in canon?

See? Right there's a plot hole that wouldn't be fixed so easily.

In this case, time travel isn't a bad thing, I do agree, again, that Einhart, Vivio, Touma and Lily coming back in time was stupid and contrived, buuut...

Again, sometimes it opens up less worms using time travel than not in cases like this.
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Old 2013-02-17, 20:25   Link #2960
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No, because the games happen in a diferent universe that doesn't have to be the same and, in fact, the two robots could not be robots at all.
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