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Old 2013-02-17, 14:04   Link #41
Archon_Wing
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I will be kind and spare my more crueler tactics.

The comment about America being a last bastion of whatever is more used in an ironic sense these days. Of which people use it to go "Hmmph, that's what you pundits always claim but actions speak far louder than words". Indeed people have been noting this since the government for the last decade or so have been acting in "anti-freedom" very much so.

Still, the collective narcissism is destructive.
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Old 2013-02-17, 19:26   Link #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I don't think we consider it the last bastion of hope and freedom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I will only say this; the claim that America is "The last bastion of hope and freedom" might sound nice to Americans, but to everyone else, even allies like Australia, it is a grievous insult.

I know people don't mean it like that. But it sounds like a secular version of a demand for a non-religious crusade on the rest of the planet. Australians talk about Australia being the best as a matter of course; but we don't lay claim that every other nation are degenerate Sodom who are all North Koreas. And that's why it is offensive. It doesn't sound like patriotic speech, but more like "We will one day crush all inferior nations beneath us".

Just want to make that observation.
And yet despite that, there are a great many immigrants both legal and not making their way into the U.S. for a shot at a better life!
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Old 2013-02-17, 19:55   Link #43
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by Lost Cause View Post
And yet despite that, there are a great many immigrants both legal and not making their way into the U.S. for a shot at a better life!
That has nothing to do with the so called freedom (to do as your corporative lords decree) nor hope (since this generation has little hope they will have the same economical opportunities in life their parents had). It has to do with a huge difference in the size of the economies in America (the same problem they have in Europe) that is exacerbated by the U.S. long tradition of fueling the economy with cheap (slave or illegal) labor. Canada does not have such a huge immigrant influx because their labor market is pretty closed, meanwhile a little south Canada's border Chicago and New York are full of immigrants (so it has nothing to do with the cold weather).
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Old 2013-02-17, 21:00   Link #44
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
That has nothing to do with the so called freedom (to do as your corporative lords decree) nor hope (since this generation has little hope they will have the same economical opportunities in life their parents had). It has to do with a huge difference in the size of the economies in America (the same problem they have in Europe) that is exacerbated by the U.S. long tradition of fueling the economy with cheap (slave or illegal) labor. Canada does not have such a huge immigrant influx because their labor market is pretty closed, meanwhile a little south Canada's border Chicago and New York are full of immigrants (so it has nothing to do with the cold weather).
I don't know, Canada has a higher percentage migrants at the moment then the US does. I've been to Vancouver recently, and it's like 50% Asian. Toronto isn't far behind either.

That Canada has historically received less migrants then the US is down to 4 factors:
1. Worse climate, most of Canada is inhospitable, and the bits that are aren't as warm (or fertile) as much of the US. There's no need for unskilled agricultural labour(like fruit picking), as the climate is not amenable to it.
2. Location, Canada's only direct border is with the US, while the US has borders with Mexico, and maritime borders with much of the Caribbean. Also, Canada has only one large Atlantic port (St. Laurence River into Quebec), and most of it's large cities are actually on the Great Lakes. To get to most Canadian cities, you'd probably have an easier time traveling via New York or Boston, and so most migrants would just stay in those Atlantic seaboard cities, rather then travel even further inland. Given that the US has most of those Atlantic cities, while Canada at best has 1 (and that 1 is actually up river)...
3. Being closely associated with the UK, in the past due to it's association with Britain, only people from the Empire emigrated in large numbers. If you were from Germany or Italy, you might prefer somewhere less closely associated with Britain. Today this is no longer a factor.
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Old 2013-02-17, 21:58   Link #45
ChainLegacy
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I will only say this; the claim that America is "The last bastion of hope and freedom" might sound nice to Americans, but to everyone else, even allies like Australia, it is a grievous insult.

I know people don't mean it like that. But it sounds like a secular version of a demand for a non-religious crusade on the rest of the planet. Australians talk about Australia being the best as a matter of course; but we don't lay claim that every other nation are degenerate Sodom who are all North Koreas. And that's why it is offensive. It doesn't sound like patriotic speech, but more like "We will one day crush all inferior nations beneath us".

Just want to make that observation.
It doesn't sound nice to me, nor accurate. I don't make the claim that the US is the best either, nor do I believe it. Shades of gray, people. I'm actually in Costa Rica right now on vacation, and despite the advantages of living in the US as opposed to here, I think any objective observer could see this country has many things in better order than my home country (and vice versa).
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Old 2013-02-17, 22:56   Link #46
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Originally Posted by Lost Cause View Post
And yet despite that, there are a great many immigrants both legal and not making their way into the U.S. for a shot at a better life!
By that logic, my little red dot must trump 'Murrica as the "last great bastion of hope and freedom", if its apparent tendency to draw immigrants looking "for a shot at a better life" is projected to balloon the population by up to 20% in the next 15 years is any indication. Ironic that this could be the case, given how this little shithole combines the worst bits of Airstrip One and the World State.
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Old 2013-02-17, 23:36   Link #47
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
By that logic, my little red dot must trump 'Murrica as the "last great bastion of hope and freedom", if its apparent tendency to draw immigrants looking "for a shot at a better life" is projected to balloon the population by up to 20% in the next 15 years is any indication. Ironic that this could be the case, given how this little shithole combines the worst bits of Airstrip One and the World State.
I think you missed something. Our immigrants here want more money, not a better life. Both ideas may overlap but they are not the same, centurions move out of lavish headquarters into simple farms.

It is money that attracts them. And the prospect of earning sizable wages means the good, bad and ugly all roll into one place, each having their own motives and interests.
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Old 2013-02-18, 01:11   Link #48
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Same applies to the little red dot. Lots of immigrants seeking money as well, coupled with many of our own citizens also afraid to lose.
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Old 2013-02-18, 06:28   Link #49
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Lost Cause View Post
And yet despite that, there are a great many immigrants both legal and not making their way into the U.S. for a shot at a better life!
They used to. The deal is definitely worse now. And as was pointed out, Mexicans are actually going home by themselves on average now.

Immigrants know they aren't welcomed anymore. We watch the news you know, and watched all the political talk about how evil Obama is because he is allegedly from Kenya.
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Old 2013-02-18, 06:35   Link #50
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
They used to. The deal is definitely worse now. And as was pointed out, Mexicans are actually going home by themselves on average now.

Immigrants know they aren't welcomed anymore. We watch the news you know, and watched all the political talk about how evil Obama is because he is allegedly from Kenya.
Immigrants have never been always wholly welcome in any country. Singaporeans used to hate Malaysians and Indonesian Chinese coming here to work, but now China gets the blame. Koreans too because their seemingly arrogant attitudes are almost the same as angmohs (Caucasians), with the exception that they are really lousy at subtle power plays (Americans, Aussies and the French seem to be very good at this, from my work experience. Indians too). On the contrary, Russian yupskies are very friendly, much moreso than their American yuppy counterparts.

It is always about the wage press-down by cheaper foreign workers. Things won't change, not even corporate and national espionage cases being blown up.
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Old 2013-02-18, 06:45   Link #51
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I'll just leave this here.
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Old 2013-02-18, 07:17   Link #52
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Lost Cause View Post
People come and go. What's important is the net flow.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Ameri...-hits-net-zero
Quote:
One million Mexicans said they returned from the US between 2005 and 2010, according to a new dem-ographic study of Mexican census data. That's three times the number who said they'd returned in the previous five-year period.

And they aren't just home for a visit: One prominent sociologist in the US has counted "net zero" migration for the first time since the 1960s.

Experts say the implications for both nations are enormous – from the draining of a labor pool in the US to the need for a radical shift in policies in Mexico, which has long depended on the billions of dollars in migrant remittances as a social welfare cornerstone.
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Old 2013-02-18, 10:29   Link #53
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I think you missed something. Our immigrants here want more money, not a better life. Both ideas may overlap but they are not the same, centurions move out of lavish headquarters into simple farms.

It is money that attracts them. And the prospect of earning sizable wages means the good, bad and ugly all roll into one place, each having their own motives and interests.
America gets a number of high-profile refugee cases, but what you're saying applies to many immigrants here as well. My fellow Americans would probably be amazed at how many native Chinese I met in research who told me that their plan was to get back to China as soon as they could. Some were here to make money; some were here because research was more prestigious here; some were here because being here meant that it would be easier for their children to get into an American university (American universities still seem to command respect around the world). Once they had carried out their career, or once their children were grown, they were heading back.

That would shock many people because China frequently gets bad press for its human rights. It's viewed as a corrupt place where the government forces abuse the population and engage in such outrageous activities as censorship. Its pollution issues make headlines even here in America. And you can still find some Americans who say the word "communism" when they think of China, and you would think that they had just invoked the name of the devil. Compared with America, why would anyone want to go back to China by their own choice?

The answer seems fairly obvious to me: just as you and I are bound to have different preferences in food, colors, houses, and so on, the idea of what constitutes "a better life" is not universal.
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Old 2013-02-18, 10:32   Link #54
ArchmageXin
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There is another good reason to come to the good old' USA, you would at least get arrested rather than bombed into smithereens as a "suspected terrorist" living in a Muslim country.

Here, at least you would get a faux trial rather than executed from the sky
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Old 2013-02-18, 11:55   Link #55
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
The answer seems fairly obvious to me: just as you and I are bound to have different preferences in food, colors, houses, and so on, the idea of what constitutes "a better life" is not universal.
I think you are evading the obvious answer, economic conditions (both in China and Mexico) have improved since 2000 (and worsened in the USA). So for most people, lowering their economic income a little to live in their own country in the culture they were raised takes precedence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
There is another good reason to come to the good old' USA, you would at least get arrested rather than bombed into smithereens as a "suspected terrorist" living in a Muslim country.

Here, at least you would get a faux trial rather than executed from the sky
I am not muslim, nor arab but if I were I think I would be mad at the prior statement, since it reeks of "all muslims are terrorists that should be hunted down by drones" and because we all know that since bush jr. was elected there is no such think as trials for "enemy combatants".
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Old 2013-02-18, 12:03   Link #56
ChainLegacy
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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
I think you are evading the obvious answer, economic conditions (both in China and Mexico) have improved since 2000 (and worsened in the USA). So for most people, lowering their economic income a little to live in their own country in the culture they were raised takes precedence.
Income isn't really very important past a certain point. Do you have access to good food? Do you have time to spend with your family and rest? Do you enjoy your life? These are the factors that matter to most people. Income is only important if it limits any of these conditions. Of course, having lots of money can bring many different options to a person, but if the trade off involves spending so much time working, away from family, and at the cost of one's mental or physical health, it's probably not worth it from a pragmatic point of view.
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Old 2013-02-18, 13:18   Link #57
ArchmageXin
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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
I think you are evading the obvious answer, economic conditions (both in China and Mexico) have improved since 2000 (and worsened in the USA). So for most people, lowering their economic income a little to live in their own country in the culture they were raised takes precedence.



I am not muslim, nor arab but if I were I think I would be mad at the prior statement, since it reeks of "all muslims are terrorists that should be hunted down by drones" and because we all know that since bush jr. was elected there is no such think as trials for "enemy combatants".
It is not a statement to bring cheers. The whole rain-hellfire missiles from the sky is a vile act that even exceed what the Bush has invented, and I find it sad that Obama could actually endorse it.

I mean, in theory, a terrorist don't even have to strap on a suicide vest anymore, he could just literally come to some random wedding/funeral with flowers, and knowing the CIA will one day bomb him right to heaven.

Is three for one--promote future Jihad recruits, 72 virgins, and have the American taxpayers pay for the explosives.
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Old 2013-02-18, 18:02   Link #58
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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
I think you are evading the obvious answer, economic conditions (both in China and Mexico) have improved since 2000 (and worsened in the USA).
You're right regarding general immigration trends, but this does not explain the scenario that I mentioned. These are people who are already in America, some of whom have gone through the process and established citizenship. They are here because the economic opportunity is better for them here. Even though they could easily spend the rest of their lives here, they do not want to. Once they decide to retire, or once their children are enrolled in an American university, they're heading home. Economics aren't playing a role in those decisions to leave, because in those cases they're in America for that reason. There are many potential reasons for why they would want to return to their home country, but the point is that the idea that America's lifestyle and/or cultural values are superior to the rest of the world, and that people universally want to emigrate here for them, is false.
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Old 2013-02-18, 19:07   Link #59
ArchmageXin
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
You're right regarding general immigration trends, but this does not explain the scenario that I mentioned. These are people who are already in America, some of whom have gone through the process and established citizenship. They are here because the economic opportunity is better for them here. Even though they could easily spend the rest of their lives here, they do not want to. Once they decide to retire, or once their children are enrolled in an American university, they're heading home. Economics aren't playing a role in those decisions to leave, because in those cases they're in America for that reason. There are many potential reasons for why they would want to return to their home country, but the point is that the idea that America's lifestyle and/or cultural values are superior to the rest of the world, and that people universally want to emigrate here for them, is false.
As someone who deal with Chinese foreign exchange students on a regular basis, many of them WANT to stay, but many can't due to the highly restrictive visa process.

Some other reasons include

AIR-China air pollution are absolutely awful, and many students want to live in a country with a EPA with a backbone. (LOL, until Rick Perry or the GOP kill it)

Water- See above, and the ability to have a shower every day rocks.

Want babies-Not because of Anchor babies, but want to have more than just one.

Religion-Some are Christians, while China isn't actively prosecuting like the good ol' Mao days, a lot of them would still want a safer harbor.

Hedge the bet-Just in case China fell apart, or America fell apart, the girl/boy can go back to China or bring parents over.
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Old 2013-02-18, 19:30   Link #60
Lost Cause
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If that's the case, and being this is the American Politics thread. Tell me why Obama is trying to make easier and less illeagal for said immigrants to stay in America? I mean he's almost giving them amnesty to stay here.
And if it's so bad here, why do they risk life and limb to get here?
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