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Old 2013-02-13, 15:05   Link #31901
Cao Ni Ma
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Even if Battler did say something like "One or more of the servants was playing dead" Beatrice could have easily said something like "All the servants are dead, none of them were playing at the moment the rooms stopped being considered locked." in red do to how she counts Shannon and Kanon.
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Old 2013-02-13, 15:38   Link #31902
Renall
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Even if Battler did say something like "One or more of the servants was playing dead" Beatrice could have easily said something like "All the servants are dead, none of them were playing at the moment the rooms stopped being considered locked." in red do to how she counts Shannon and Kanon.
While true, it creates an interesting logical trap there: What if Battler does suggest that, then gets it denied, then merely generalizes his theory to "someone was faking their death?"

I mean... how do you get around that? Argue the culprit was never "faking?"
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Old 2013-02-13, 15:55   Link #31903
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Well, couldn't she just name everyone on the island and say they're not faking their death? If Battler can't come up with a reason for an extra person to be there, then a generalised argument doesn't deny the witch when everyone it could apply to has been removed from consideration.
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Old 2013-02-13, 16:30   Link #31904
GreyZone
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Well, it was not like the playing dead was denied in either the anime or the original novel regarding EP3 ever, so I wouldn't call this a huge error in the narrative. The problem was that apparently the scriptwriter of episode 26 seemed to think or remember that during episode 18 the death of individual or all people was given in red. If this was an oversight by just simply copying lines from the original novel's script or a problem in the planning department when finishing the anime script, we will never know.

Yes, Battler is referring to a line that did not appear in the anime, but the whole playing dead argument wasn't even brought up during EP3's anime adaptation, so it appears more like Battler just thought it up during EP4's final battle.

There is a difference. Excluding the one exception we all know of (Shkanontrice), a dead person cannot "fake death". That Battler didn't think of it may be true, but the audience that didn't read the VN may create such theories. It is... "unfair" to them.
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Old 2013-02-13, 16:31   Link #31905
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
While true, it creates an interesting logical trap there: What if Battler does suggest that, then gets it denied, then merely generalizes his theory to "someone was faking their death?"

I mean... how do you get around that? Argue the culprit was never "faking?"
Well, Beato/Yasu seems to consider herself, Shannon and Kanon as different persons so Beato/Yasu never faked being dead...
I guess you should go into something specific like: one of the bodies assumed/declared to be dead/fatally wounded was instead perfectly fine.
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Old 2013-02-13, 17:30   Link #31906
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Well, couldn't she just name everyone on the island and say they're not faking their death? If Battler can't come up with a reason for an extra person to be there, then a generalised argument doesn't deny the witch when everyone it could apply to has been removed from consideration.
At that point the red cheating just gets really, really bad, but yes I suppose she could theoretically do that. Arguing "Beatrice wasn't faking because the Beatrice-persona was never observed to be 'dead'" is just as bad, really.
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Old 2013-02-17, 16:16   Link #31907
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Okay, I was reading Ep 7 chap 18 in which Clair appears for the first time and I've noticed something interesting. When Will declares he solved everything and Clair supposedly joins him and Bern 'she' is represented merely as a dark silhouette.
At first I didn't pay it much attention but then, looking carefully, I could see that wasn't Clair as she's clearly wearing the maid outfit, not Clair's clothes. In fact you can see the sleves are different from Clair's and also the shirt is the same as the one of Shannon's maid uniform and there's that sort of cravat she wear as well.

However she's not Shannon as her hair as clearly long, nearly waist lenght to be exact She's not wearing the maid hat though.

We don't see much more of her as, when Furfur and Zepar's show starts she's replaced by Clair.

However from the little I could see I would say that her look matches with the one of child Yasu whose pictures were shown time ago.
Meaning probably that was truly Yasu's true look and not just Yasu's idealization of her look or something as I admit I've suspected it was.
Now... in all the pics of child Yasu I saw so far her face was always partially hidden by her fringe so I wonder if it'll be ever show and if this will have some impact on the plot of the manga, meaning it'll be different in some points.
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Old 2013-02-17, 18:28   Link #31908
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I kind of doubt it.

There's never been anything in the plot to suggest that there was anything notable about her appearance at all, outside of perhaps a general smallness / frailty. And as we've discussed before, she isn't any more canon-blonde than Battler and Eva are canon-gingers.

I mean, I find their decision to design her that way kinda odd, probably to keep a visual parallel with Lion, I guess, but ... eh, whatevs.
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Old 2013-02-17, 19:48   Link #31909
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I kind of doubt it.

There's never been anything in the plot to suggest that there was anything notable about her appearance at all, outside of perhaps a general smallness / frailty. And as we've discussed before, she isn't any more canon-blonde than Battler and Eva are canon-gingers.

I mean, I find their decision to design her that way kinda odd, probably to keep a visual parallel with Lion, I guess, but ... eh, whatevs.
I'm not referring just to the hair colour given to her, which might be fictional in the same way as most of the cast hair colour is, but at the fact her look isn't exactly Shannon's.

I was expecting Yasu and Shannon to have matching looks as grown up as they're sharing the same body or her to be represented always by Clair or her not to be showed or even her to be represented by Beatrice but that's not the case. She's given her own look.

It makes me wonder if there's a meaning to this because giving her a look and one different from Shannon as grown up wasn't necessary.

Add to this no one seems to notice that Kanon has exactly the same face as Shannon and his hair not only are of different colour but also cut slightly differently as if the two were supposed to look like different people even in the eyes of Jessica or the other servants like Gohda (which I've always found absurd) and I wonder if despite the fact Yasu, Shannon and Kanon share the same body in the games, they're drawn differently because in Prime they weren't the same.

But this would open up dozen of new problems so I'm really curious about how the manga will develop things.
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Old 2013-02-17, 20:07   Link #31910
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I was expecting Yasu and Shannon to have matching looks as grown up as they're sharing the same body or her to be represented always by Clair or her not to be showed or even her to be represented by Beatrice but that's not the case. She's given her own look.

It makes me wonder if there's a meaning to this because giving her a look and one different from Shannon as grown up wasn't necessary.
I would rather say that this, along with her being portrayed as an actual character from chapter 18 onward, hints largely towards what some people already put out there, an original Shannon existed on Rokkenjima sometime during the mid to late 70s.
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Old 2013-02-17, 20:22   Link #31911
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I would rather say that this, along with her being portrayed as an actual character from chapter 18 onward, hints largely towards what some people already put out there, an original Shannon existed on Rokkenjima sometime during the mid to late 70s.
The problem is that Shannon look should be known even out of Rokkenjima.
She went to school, she likely figured in photos taken during schooltrips and for the school album.
So her look has to be the one of the Shannon of 1986. Even if there was another Shannon prior to her (which would cause 2 Shannon to be on Rokkenjima at a certain point or Yasu to switch her name from whatever-on to Shannon once the first Shannon left) the look of the Shannon of 1986 must be genuine and likely ended up on the news.
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Old 2013-02-17, 20:35   Link #31912
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Well there was that "Shanon" that shared her mystery novel experiences with Battler. And as far as I know that was not only the last year Battler was present on Rokkenjima. In one of the games Shanon and George even talk about Battler and Shanon having had a "quite close relationship".

I guess there is enough evidence to conclude that "Shanon" existed BEFORE 1980.


Or did I just completly miss the point?
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Old 2013-02-17, 21:12   Link #31913
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Well there was that "Shanon" that shared her mystery novel experiences with Battler. And as far as I know that was not only the last year Battler was present on Rokkenjima. In one of the games Shanon and George even talk about Battler and Shanon having had a "quite close relationship".

I guess there is enough evidence to conclude that "Shanon" existed BEFORE 1980.


Or did I just completly miss the point?
I think that haguruma meant the Shannon we assumed was an immaginary friend was actually a real person and that Yasu afterward took her name or something.
Alternatively I could also have missed his point...

Interesting enough, assuming that the original Yasu was a long haired fictional blonde the fact that she 'handed' her hair to Beato might merely mean she cut her hair.
While for us it wouldn't mean much in Japan hair cutting can also be more symbolic.
It would also sort of seal her trasformation into another person, Shannon...

Hum... I'm really curious to see how the manga will develop all this.
In E 7 when Yasu is a kid Shannon is represented as a girl definitevely older than her... but she's supposed to be around Battler's age when Battler is 12 and therefore younger... so I wonder if when Yasu will become white Beato Shannon will... rejuvenate... or the manga will deal with the whole thing differently...
I would bet for the rejuvenation thing as the manga already showed a young Shannon in Ep 6.

Still, I find that giving adult Yasu her own look was an interesting choice and I'm curious to see if it will lead to something or not.

AHHH! I want to know what Battler tells Shannon in Ep 8! (it'll probably won't be important but stil...)
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Old 2013-02-18, 00:05   Link #31914
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I'm still really annoyed at the insinuation that Yasu would resemble Beatrice in any meaningful way, considering that the whole point in building Beatrice to be his fantasy woman was because she herself wasn't.

And as Renall and I have analyzed once upon a time, Yasu probably resembles Kanon the most, hairwise.
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Old 2013-02-18, 07:33   Link #31915
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And as Renall and I have analyzed once upon a time, Yasu probably resembles Kanon the most, hairwise.
Yes, that would still be the most reasonable way, or at least something close to Kanon that could be solved with cutting your hair short. The manga doesn't really imply anything in these few pictures concerning hair color or any closer features. I think if anybody on the project would actually try and make the implication that it is reasonable for Yasu to look like Beatrice in the flesh, it'd be baffling.

Yes, we should take Kinzo's "You look just like her in that gown, with that hair" into account, but it is not unlikely that this was after Genji and probably Kumasawa nicened her up for the event. If she'd look like Beatrice all the time, Kinzo would have guessed a lot earlier. She probably resembles her mother and grandmother in regards to facial features, not even counting that her mother is also her half-sister, but being the technically 3rd generation, the Italian influences should have pretty much gone away. It's not unlikely that her mother had dark blond hair, if Castiglioni was very blond, but in most cases even mixed ethnicity Japanese children tend to look slightly Japanese.
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Old 2013-02-18, 09:48   Link #31916
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The problem is that Shannon look should be known even out of Rokkenjima.
She went to school, she likely figured in photos taken during schooltrips and for the school album.
So her look has to be the one of the Shannon of 1986. Even if there was another Shannon prior to her (which would cause 2 Shannon to be on Rokkenjima at a certain point or Yasu to switch her name from whatever-on to Shannon once the first Shannon left) the look of the Shannon of 1986 must be genuine and likely ended up on the news.
What look? The stories don't have pictures. The story mentions a "Shannon." If indeed there was a "Shannon" known to exist among the servants on duty in 1986, then people might assume what she'd look like based upon descriptions of her, but we have no idea if their conception of Shannon or Kanon is anything close to any sort of reality.

Of course, if haguruma is correct and there was a "Shannon model" in the 1970s, then it's possible the image we have of Shannon is actually the physical appearance of the model servant, and that Yasu's attempts to create a more feminine "Shannon" persona, if at all, probably didn't look exactly the same way. But really, who knows.

Kanon as the basis seems the most likely because in costuming it's easier to be additive than reductive. That is, breasts are easier to fake through padding than they are to hide through binding, and hair is easier to make longer and a different color through wigs than to make long hair appear shorter. Slap a dress and a wig on Kanon and maybe Kinzo actually would notice a resemblance... although I personally suspect he would've "seen a resemblance" no matter who ended up brought before him, because he was nuts.

But the point is if the appearances of the characters are even remotely close to correct, and perhaps they're not, Kanon is the most likely "baseline." Short, dark hair and a boyish/androgynous figure would certainly not draw a lot of second glances from other Japanese people, so Yasu would only really be noticeable when trying to be through a costume.
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Old 2013-02-18, 15:05   Link #31917
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What look? The stories don't have pictures. The story mentions a "Shannon." If indeed there was a "Shannon" known to exist among the servants on duty in 1986, then people might assume what she'd look like based upon descriptions of her, but we have no idea if their conception of Shannon or Kanon is anything close to any sort of reality.

Of course, if haguruma is correct and there was a "Shannon model" in the 1970s, then it's possible the image we have of Shannon is actually the physical appearance of the model servant, and that Yasu's attempts to create a more feminine "Shannon" persona, if at all, probably didn't look exactly the same way. But really, who knows.

Kanon as the basis seems the most likely because in costuming it's easier to be additive than reductive. That is, breasts are easier to fake through padding than they are to hide through binding, and hair is easier to make longer and a different color through wigs than to make long hair appear shorter. Slap a dress and a wig on Kanon and maybe Kinzo actually would notice a resemblance... although I personally suspect he would've "seen a resemblance" no matter who ended up brought before him, because he was nuts.

But the point is if the appearances of the characters are even remotely close to correct, and perhaps they're not, Kanon is the most likely "baseline." Short, dark hair and a boyish/androgynous figure would certainly not draw a lot of second glances from other Japanese people, so Yasu would only really be noticeable when trying to be through a costume.
The stories don't have pictures but the news probably searched for pictures of the people who died on Rokkenjima and showed them on the news.
Now I don't know if there were pictures of Kanon out of Rokkenjima that the news could dig up. I doubt the Fukuin kept them and it's never said Kanon continued his studies like Shannon did.

Maybe someone had a camera and took a picture of him at the school festival which, if he was dressed as showed, might not show much. Maybe. I wouldn't bet on it.

Shannon however should have pictures of her out of Rokkenjima that the news or the police could dig up.
She attended to school so she likely figured in group pictures and it seems in Japanese schools there's something that sort of a school album with all the students' pictures.

Add to this that she might have ended in pictures taken by her classmates during schooltrips or in other moments and you've a serious chance to get a Shannon's picture.
In addition according to the story Shannon was Yasu's first official 'identity'. I would have expected her not to need to disguise herself as Shannon as she's expected to be Shannon.
Sure, she wore padded bra but likely at first it wasn't supposed to be a disguise, just a way to make herself prettier.

Kanon instead had birth later and she needed people to think he was a different person from her. So, although her body likely was Kanon-like and not Shannon-like her face and hairstyle should have been the ones of Shannon, not Kanon.

Of course it's possible that since there's likely pictures of Shannon but there can be a lack of them for Kanon, Kanon's look out of Rokkenjima was created using other sources, for example people describing him orally.
Let's assume the other maids knew he existed but were never on his shift and the only source used to describe Kanon were the people at the school festival (since they're the only one Jessica used as proof that Kanon existed and she doesn't mention other servants).
They could have failed to notice he looked like Shannon as they didn't really get to look at him well and reported a description of him that was vague and created an impression of difference between him and Shannon that wasn't really there.

Maybe the news even showed an attempt to make an identikit of him that, instead than helping to recognize he was Shannon, created even more the idea he looked different from her.

So it can really be that the Kanon look we know isn't actually Kanon's real look but what people was lead to think it was his look according to the info they got.

Anyway Umineko's weak point is the care about how characters look.

Honestly the first time I've heard the ShKanon's theory in my mind I shot it down with an 'absurd, if this was true people like Jessica or Gohda or even Battler should have noticed Kanon and Shannon have the same face even if they're not related, there should be a hint about them looking the same despite not being brothers!' but, as we all know, Umineko didn't bother at all with those 'trivialities' and made ShKanon the right theory.

It even let Erika canonically wander around the game board with blue hair Bern gave her without anyone noticing... (and shouldn't this mean out of the gameboard, in Prime, her hair was different? Maybe look on the gameboard is really made up on the spot for some characters...)
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Old 2013-02-18, 15:33   Link #31918
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Again though, what you're saying may well be true, except:

1) Meta-Battler doesn't have access to that information.
2) We don't have access to that information.
3) The people of R-Prime do not have access to the meta-information that Meta-Battler/we have access to.

Therefore, what Shannon looks like is based entirely on what is presented to Battler. He's the only person who could notice anything wrong, and the entire way the system is set up he can't do that.

We do know where the genesis of the ideas came from, however. If anything, I think that makes the "Shannon model" thing a bit more likely since I could see Beatrice trying to intentionally dissociate Shannon and Kanon a bit by giving one of them the appearance of a person upon whom Shannon was "based," while Kanon is more reflective of her actual appearance and Beatrice reflects an ideal (and the portrait).

The point is, some meta-entity based upon Yasu is feeding data to some meta-entity based upon Battler, except each might not actually be the other, and we don't have any way to verify these facts actually match up with "reality." So what any given character physically looks like is largely going to be based on faith unless somebody actually provides information about them to suggest their appearance was meaningfully different in a way that a person in the story can recognize. Nobody did... but then again, nobody who might have done so was ever mentioned either.
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Old 2013-02-18, 17:12   Link #31919
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Again though, what you're saying may well be true, except:

1) Meta-Battler doesn't have access to that information.
2) We don't have access to that information.
3) The people of R-Prime do not have access to the meta-information that Meta-Battler/we have access to.

Therefore, what Shannon looks like is based entirely on what is presented to Battler. He's the only person who could notice anything wrong, and the entire way the system is set up he can't do that.
It really depend on what Meta-Battler is.
If Meta Battler is an inner projection of Tohya (or whatever you want to call him) it can be he doesn't have such a clear memory of Shannon and Kanon and that their look in his mind is mostly based on what the news showed.
After all he saw Kanon and Shannon for how long? And how much time ago? It would be pretty normal that their look would be blurred in his mind and that pictures shown by the news would superimpose on their real look.

If Meta Battler is an inner projection of Ange (or whatever you want to call him) as she read the tales and pictures her brother fighting the witch it's even more likely she would be influenced by the media in picturing Shannon and Kanon in her mind.

Whatever we see in the gameboard is filtered through Battler's eyes (or Ange in some cases) so that we can even see magic battles if they think they're seeing one.

Of course if Meta Battler is something entirely different, all bets are open.

There's to say however that Meta Battler doesn't seem to have knowledge of what had really happened in Prime. He's taken straight from the first gameboard so I don't even know if he can have memories of how Shannon and Kanon really looked beyond what was said/showed/whatever in the first gameboard.

If we go by this for Meta Battler the Prime that contained his real travel on Rokkenjima doesn't exist (at least at first... no idea if he remembered it at the end of the 5th game) so even his memory of Gohda can be wrong (not that it matters so I'll assume Gohda is as he remembers).

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The point is, some meta-entity based upon Yasu is feeding data to some meta-entity based upon Battler, except each might not actually be the other, and we don't have any way to verify these facts actually match up with "reality." So what any given character physically looks like is largely going to be based on faith unless somebody actually provides information about them to suggest their appearance was meaningfully different in a way that a person in the story can recognize. Nobody did... but then again, nobody who might have done so was ever mentioned either.
We clash in this problem for stuff even more important than the characters' looks. I mean there's a whole huge load of info that Battler get to know in the tales, starting from how Kinzo found the gold to what happened to Beatrice 2 and continuing with a lot of stuffs about Yasu's life and fantasies or Kyrie's past and how he's not Asumu's son (but there's also Kinzo's past with Genji) that somehow he's fed with.

Do the game provided him those informations due to a connection with someone in Prime? and if that's the case how reliable they are anyway?

In the past we've questioned nearly all of them. The submarine's story, if the gold really was on Rokkenjima and how big it was, if Yasu was really Beato 2's kid or she merely believed it or she was made to believe it, if Natsuhi really pushed the servant or the servant fell on her own and Natsuhi felt so guilty she believed she was the one to blame... and other stuffs I can't remember.

Shannon & Kanon's look and therefore Yasu's real look is really minor in comparison to all the stuffs the plot fed us with and again, unless in the manga something will be revealed, I doubt we'll know the truth.

However the fact that the manga is actually touching this point make me think it can plan to reveal something otherwise... why to raise the issue?
Yasu could have very well looked like Clair/Shannon/Kanon/Beato from the beginning. No need to give her a look of her own when the novel already provided her a cover in form of Clair.
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Old 2013-02-18, 23:52   Link #31920
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She attended to school so she likely figured in group pictures and it seems in Japanese schools there's something that sort of a school album with all the students' pictures.
I doubt that a middle school or high school in Nijima would actually produce a year book in the early 1980's, but yes, there should at least be a commemoration photograph of the class at the very end of each year and it was a time where people actually would already take pictures on a daily basis.
Yet, what does that prove? The only alive people who could have commented on the Shannon who was on Rokkenjima on October 4th and 5th 1986 are a mad woman who's stalked by paparazzi and an amnesiac with a head injury. The one would not comment on whether this was the Shannon from the stories, the other probably could not.

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In addition according to the story Shannon was Yasu's first official 'identity'. I would have expected her not to need to disguise herself as Shannon as she's expected to be Shannon.
But that's the question, isn't it?
Going by the story told in EP7, Shannon is exactly NOT who people saw her as. Shannon was a model servant who finished her chores and kept a smiling face, Yasu was too clumsy to even keep her own set of keys together. So Yasu became a witch and left to the golden land, but somebody needed to stay, because the person him/herself couldn't actually just go away and live there, this slot became filled with Shannon, the ideal servant.

I think on that level Ryukishi at least meant for the scenes to be taken more symbolic than real. Yasu-Shannon probably didn't look exactly like the original Shannon, but modeled that look after her; like if somebody is a huge fan of a person and tries imitating clothes, hairstyle and manner of speaking. That is actually something that people do, so I wouldn't be surprised.

Quote:
Honestly the first time I've heard the ShKanon's theory in my mind I shot it down with an 'absurd, if this was true people like Jessica or Gohda or even Battler should have noticed Kanon and Shannon have the same face even if they're not related, there should be a hint about them looking the same despite not being brothers!' but, as we all know, Umineko didn't bother at all with those 'trivialities' and made ShKanon the right theory.
The problem is, Gohda likely knew from a certain point on and I wouldn't be surprised if Jessica knew as well and the truth we are supposed to draw from the stories is a lot more messed up than "ingenious disguise fooled everybody", yet Battler could have easily been tricked, as he only knew Kanon for 1 1/2 days at most (depending on wen Kanon 'vanished').
And depending on how much a disguised Yasu would invest into said disguise, you could fool somebody for that amount of time. Just take a look at something like this
Spoiler for picture:
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