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Old 2013-02-16, 08:50   Link #2861
Haiprbim
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Answer is under the Spoiler tag.

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Old 2013-02-16, 12:09   Link #2862
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Spoiler for Juubi:
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Old 2013-02-18, 08:14   Link #2863
JustRob
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I got a question:

Isn't it kinda hax that Hiruzen was able to perform Dead Demon Consuming Seal with two shadow clones, and still be alive?

I mean, normally, the technique takes your own soul as well. Can this be avoided by the use of shadow clones? In that case, why didn't Minato use a shadow clone instead, to save his own life?
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Old 2013-02-18, 09:57   Link #2864
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In that case, why didn't Minato use a shadow clone instead, to save his own life?
There is one thing that prevented him to do that, time.
He jumped in front of the Kyuubi's Claw as well as Kushina just in order to stop it from hitting Naruto. They would die anyway, so he just used the remaining seconds of his life for that jutsu.

Same was with Hiruzen's fight with Orochimaru, he had him binded, he could not perform a Shadow Clone at that time, if he would try, Orochimaru would do something else to finish him without having his hands sealed.
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Old 2013-02-18, 10:05   Link #2865
itachi-san314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
I got a question:

Isn't it kinda hax that Hiruzen was able to perform Dead Demon Consuming Seal with two shadow clones, and still be alive?

I mean, normally, the technique takes your own soul as well. Can this be avoided by the use of shadow clones? In that case, why didn't Minato use a shadow clone instead, to save his own life?
the death god seal did take hiruzen's soul and life. that's the price one must pay for using the technique. the technique allows the user to seal one person's soul for the price of your own. hiruzen used 2 shadow clones to allow for him to seal 3 souls for the price of his own. (but he wasn't strong enough to seal all of orochimaru's soul of course)
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Old 2013-02-18, 10:30   Link #2866
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Originally Posted by P3tr View Post
There is one thing that prevented him to do that, time.
He jumped in front of the Kyuubi's Claw as well as Kushina just in order to stop it from hitting Naruto. They would die anyway, so he just used the remaining seconds of his life for that jutsu.

Same was with Hiruzen's fight with Orochimaru, he had him binded, he could not perform a Shadow Clone at that time, if he would try, Orochimaru would do something else to finish him without having his hands sealed.
Alright that explains Minato's case.

But Orochimaru didn't have Hiruzen binded until he grabbed him and started the sealing process already. Tobirama's genjutsu was undone as soon as Hiruzen's shadow clone sealed him, so he could have made a new shadow clone to send after Orochimaru.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
the death god seal did take hiruzen's soul and life. that's the price one must pay for using the technique. the technique allows the user to seal one person's soul for the price of your own. hiruzen used 2 shadow clones to allow for him to seal 3 souls for the price of his own. (but he wasn't strong enough to seal all of orochimaru's soul of course)
But that's exactly why it's hax. The Dead Demon Consuming Seal is supposed to let you take ONE soul in exchange for your own. Hiruzen apparently is able to take two souls without any impact on himself.

So if I'm getting this right, that means if you're using a shadow clone to conduct the sealing process, and seal the soul in your shadow clone, then you yourself aren't affected. Which means you can pretty much cheat death?
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Old 2013-02-18, 11:14   Link #2867
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Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
But that's exactly why it's hax. The Dead Demon Consuming Seal is supposed to let you take ONE soul in exchange for your own. Hiruzen apparently is able to take two souls without any impact on himself.
Where did you get the information that is can only take one soul?
Anyway Hiruzen couldn't took them without any impact on himself, the moment he used the Shinigami he was doomed, it's just that the act of sealing doesn't kill the user instantly. Neither Minato nor Hiruzen died right after they sealed their target(s) but the moment they released the jutsu their souls went along with it.
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Old 2013-02-18, 13:28   Link #2868
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Where did you get the information that is can only take one soul?
Anyway Hiruzen couldn't took them without any impact on himself, the moment he used the Shinigami he was doomed, it's just that the act of sealing doesn't kill the user instantly. Neither Minato nor Hiruzen died right after they sealed their target(s) but the moment they released the jutsu their souls went along with it.
So what happens if you use a shadow clone to seal your enemy, and then proceed without doing anything else? Does the shinigami just float behind you for an eternity, or what?
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Old 2013-02-18, 13:40   Link #2869
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So what happens if you use a shadow clone to seal your enemy, and then proceed without doing anything else? Does the shinigami just float behind you for an eternity, or what?
my understanding is that once you summon the reaper there is a time limit before he seals the user's soul. the time limit is obviously not specific since it caters to however long kishi needs to stretch a scene out, but it's not a very long time. that's why both hiruzen and minato had to 'rush' once the reaper was summoned. hiruzen had to settle for only orochimaru's arms and minato just said a few words before implanting a little of his chakra into naruto. so it's only roughly a minute I'd say before the reaper takes the user's soul. i assume it's also possible to summon the reaper, fail in taking your opponent's soul and still have your soul sealed as evidenced by hiruzen failing to fully capture orochimaru.

also, in regard to your statement about only being able to seal one soul, it's as Hunter said and there is no such limitation. consider minato sealing the kyuubi. what is the weight of half the kyuubi's chakra? it's not really comparable to one person's soul. basically, i think you can seal whatever you are able to before the reaper claims your soul
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Old 2013-02-18, 13:45   Link #2870
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
my understanding is that once you summon the reaper there is a time limit before he seals the user's soul. the time limit is obviously not specific since it caters to however long kishi needs to stretch a scene out, but it's not a very long time. that's why both hiruzen and minato had to 'rush' once the reaper was summoned. hiruzen had to settle for only orochimaru's arms and minato just said a few words before implanting a little of his chakra into naruto. so it's only roughly a minute I'd say before the reaper takes the user's soul. i assume it's also possible to summon the reaper, fail in taking your opponent's soul and still have your soul sealed as evidenced by hiruzen failing to fully capture orochimaru.

also, in regard to your statement about only being able to seal one soul, it's as Hunter said and there is no such limitation. consider minato sealing the kyuubi. what is the weight of half the kyuubi's chakra? it's not really comparable to one person's soul. basically i think you can seal whatever you are able before the reaper claims your soul
I don't think there's a time limit to be honest.

Firstly, the reason Hiruzen only sealed his arms was because he didn't have the strength left to pull out his entire soul. Taking someone elses soul apparently depends on the user's own physical strength. Hiruzen was pretty much out of chakra and besides that he had a Sword of Kusanagi stabbing him right through the chest.

Also, Hiruzen is screwing around for quite a while since the time he summoned the Shinigami. First he sealed both Hokage, which took a fair amount of time, and then he still had to fight Orochimaru normally for a bit in order to create an opening to grab him.

It also seems like the user controls when the Shinigami "cuts the deal" and takes the soul of the victim.

Usage of the technique kills the user. But technically, if you don't take someone else's soul, you didn't "use" the technique yet. And that's why I ask, if you have a shadow clone do the sealing, what happens to the real version of the user? Hiruzen wasn't notably affected at all, he was still fit enough to make Orochimaru sweat and leave himself open.
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:34   Link #2871
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So what happens if you use a shadow clone to seal your enemy, and then proceed without doing anything else? Does the shinigami just float behind you for an eternity, or what?
For as long as you can maintain the jutsu at least. We don't know how long one can do that but everybody has to sleep eventually anyway.

The only question is what happen if a clone activates the jutsu while the original ninja chills somewhere else.
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Old 2013-02-19, 16:23   Link #2872
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
For as long as you can maintain the jutsu at least. We don't know how long one can do that but everybody has to sleep eventually anyway.

The only question is what happen if a clone activates the jutsu while the original ninja chills somewhere else.
I don't think the jutsu can be activated by just a clone. When Hiruzen used it, he used all three at once. Then again, it might be possible. I wouldn't like it to be honest as that would make this jutsu even more broken.
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Old 2013-02-22, 23:54   Link #2873
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Spoiler for manga:
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Old 2013-02-23, 00:25   Link #2874
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If Itachi was a spy, then what info was he feeding them exactly? Seems like Jiraiya was the spymaster. It's pretty obvious that the Leaf had no idea what Pain ofthe immortals' powers were, something that Itachi should have known and shared with his real masters.
Was he really a double agent or a triple agent? Or is it yet another retcon by Kishi?
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Old 2013-02-23, 00:54   Link #2875
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by gibits View Post
If Itachi was a spy, then what info was he feeding them exactly? Seems like Jiraiya was the spymaster. It's pretty obvious that the Leaf had no idea what Pain ofthe immortals' powers were, something that Itachi should have known and shared with his real masters.
Was he really a double agent or a triple agent? Or is it yet another retcon by Kishi?
i think it's less of a retcon and more of a purposeful omission and hope that nobody noticed itachi should have been easily able to convey most of akatsuki's powers to konoha, but he couldn't since that would ruin the fun of the fights
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Old 2013-02-23, 01:28   Link #2876
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i think it's less of a retcon and more of a purposeful omission and hope that nobody noticed itachi should have been easily able to convey most of akatsuki's powers to konoha, but he couldn't since that would ruin the fun of the fights
What makes you so sure Kishi had that lined up to begin with? I'm really not seeing much evidence. I was surprised when I beat Metal Gear Solid 3 and found out the Boss was a double agent, but replaying it again I could see little hints that pointed that she was on naked snake's side the whole time. I don't get that impression at all from Itachi.

Instead I have him retelling the massacre in about 5 different ways, each time changing a little here and there.
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Old 2013-02-23, 02:18   Link #2877
itachi-san314
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What makes you so sure Kishi had that lined up to begin with? I'm really not seeing much evidence. I was surprised when I beat Metal Gear Solid 3 and found out the Boss was a double agent, but replaying it again I could see little hints that pointed that she was on naked snake's side the whole time. I don't get that impression at all from Itachi.

Instead I have him retelling the massacre in about 5 different ways, each time changing a little here and there.
well, by the time akatsuki started being a major part of the story is also the time it was evident there was something up with itachi which is the sasori deidara arc. before then we didnt see any of their powers so it was still possible for konoha to have intel on at least some of the akatsuki members. then when itachi fought team 7 he cracked a small smile when naruto giant rasengan'd him. so at this time kishi had the story of itachi's redemption in mind. itachi wasn't making good people suffer under his genjutsus anymore like the sadistic itachi in part 1. but kishi omitted itachi's spying on akatsuki. he was merely a shield for konoha and naruto while he was a member there
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Old 2013-02-23, 13:31   Link #2878
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so random food for thought, but if shisui is alive or if he committed suicide, wouldn't itachi have gotten his MS from killing his lover?
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Old 2013-02-23, 16:11   Link #2879
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Spoiler for spoiler:

Last edited by Hunter; 2013-03-09 at 18:08.
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Old 2013-02-23, 18:04   Link #2880
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Spoiler for spoiler:
The answer would depend on whether you value peace over some individuality.

Last edited by Hunter; 2013-03-09 at 18:08.
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