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Old 2006-01-24, 04:48   Link #261
Kurogane_Shiroikaze
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Really, criticisms are well accepted, but let's try to keep it civilized. Using coarse words to present you point might be effective, but it won't have impact.

On the other hand.... I find overtly advanced analytical-syled opinions not helping much as well...., presentation of points in a clear and concise manner is the best in anyways.
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Old 2006-01-24, 04:58   Link #262
Imion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSanninWa
Kashimashi is one more example of not being an actual lesbian relationship, since one of the girls is actually a boy inside. This way they can have their cake and eat it too.
Wouldn't that be some kind of pseudo political correct thinking, serving certain conservative groups?

"He's not really a girl, so they can't blame us for showing homosexual (/lesbian) stuff."
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Old 2006-01-24, 07:08   Link #263
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I suspect so. Or perhaps they are just timid.
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Old 2006-01-24, 07:23   Link #264
Imion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSanninWa
I suspect so. Or perhaps they are just timid.
Somehow I doubt they are timid... I mean... judging from the title of the anime and the whole setup it's not like they made only a few intimations on what is gonna happen.

Did you see that bright and happy look on Yasunas face when she saw the naked girl Hazumo? Probably she just turned him down because he was male that time...


Btw. for your spoiler above, it was indeed unexpected, most of the time I thought it'll be some one way love again.

Spoiler:
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Old 2006-01-24, 07:27   Link #265
Pellissier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imion
Wouldn't that be some kind of pseudo political correct thinking, serving certain conservative groups?

"He's not really a girl, so they can't blame us for showing homosexual (/lesbian) stuff."
Anyway, I don't see anything really new here. If not maybe that here we have an excuse to use yuri, instead of a way to justify incest.

Is this matter by any chance different to the various twists between big brother and little sister - that someway aren't really brother and sister or actually blood related - , in a bunch of other anime?
On that branch, afaik just Koi Kaze (and that other 60 mins ova with that very long japanese title) dealt the theme without excapades of sort.

I agree that it can be pseudo political correct thinking, I'm just adding that there isn't much to be surprised of and imho it should just be taken easy.

Regarding me, as long it is fictional and the anime is enjoyable, it doesn't bother me at all.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imion
Did you see that bright and happy look on Yasunas face when she saw the naked girl Hazumo? Probably she just turned him down because he was male that time...
By the way, there was a specific reason for that Yasuna's reaction, which is explained further in the manga, and not yet in the anime. I guess this will be explained in the anime as well, but anyway, don't read if you don't want to know.

Spoiler for little manga revelation:
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Last edited by Pellissier; 2006-01-24 at 07:54.
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Old 2006-01-24, 07:55   Link #266
NeoSam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diedrupo
I can't stand this work, I don't consider it a true yuri manga. As effeminate as the main character was when he was a boy, he is still really a boy even after having his sex changed. This is just a common japanese fanboy fantasy since they can't stand the idea of an actual lesbian romance.
A japanese fanboy fantasy is to turn into a girl LOL

Anyway I'm sure many have heard of this its called diversity :P there are plenty of manga out there, yes you'll even find male oriented manga that has serious yuri relationship/relationships in them, but not many of these manga get animated, and those that get animated don't get treated well (HEN for example (a seinen manga)).

A more serious male oriented yuri manga is getting animated this year: Strawberry Panic! (serialized in Dengeki G's Magazine (a magazine for male otakus))

Is someone going to say that Strawberry Panic! is a serious male oriented yuri manga? probably not, if its not "common japanese fanboy fantasy since they can't stand the idea of an actual lesbian romance" they will claim stuff: "it can't be for guys its so sh**j*"

These guys that like to claim stuff, when the time comes are probably going to get flamed by me.

Yeah, if its a serious yuri manga they will claim its sh**j* and when it has fanservice or the guy turns into a girl its "common japanese fanboy fantasy since they can't stand the idea of an actual lesbian romance"
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Old 2006-01-24, 07:57   Link #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurogane_Shiroikaze
Really, criticisms are well accepted, but let's try to keep it civilized. Using coarse words to present you point might be effective, but it won't have impact.
This was what I meant btw.
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Old 2006-01-24, 08:10   Link #268
Imion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pellissier
Regarding me, as long it is fictional and the anime is enjoyable, it doesn't bother me at all.
Oh, same here. It's just that I find it amusing whenever such behaviour appears, as long as it doesn't become extreme in some way. (been there, seen that...)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pellissier
EDIT:
By the way, there was a specific reason for that Yasuna's reaction, which is explained further in the manga, and not yet in the anime. I guess this will be explained in the anime as well, but anyway, don't read if you don't want to know.

Spoiler for little manga revelation:
At least that makes things clear... and now I'll try to forget it again.
I really shouldn't read manga spoilers after all.

Spoiler:
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Old 2006-01-24, 08:53   Link #269
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I think I said something earlier about Yasuna-chan's condition. She doesn't WANT to fall in love with a girl, and she DIDN'T, but this love was painful for her because she couldn't possibly have a relationship with Hazumu if he was male, just like how Tomari-chan can't stop her feelings but instead has to put up with her clear aversion to female-female love.
I do find it interesting how they made one girl seem to be freed by this change, and the other restrained, while making it clear that both are in love. When you get down to it, I think this is a lot like the "Onegai" series: they take a form of relationship that many are uncomfortable with, which seems somewhat inappropriate to many, and then try to find a situation where no one can complain.
Frankly, I'm more put off by Asuta and the predictable changes in him than by the girls' reactions. "I loved you before you were a girl so I still love you now" seems so much better than "you were my best friend but now you're hot". Not saying that I wouldn't have trouble dealing with a friend who suddenly turned into a babe. I guess continuing to love someone despite how they change is better than starting to love someone because of the changes.
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Old 2006-01-24, 09:00   Link #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seiryuu
Frankly, I'm more put off by Asuta and the predictable changes in him than by the girls' reactions. "I loved you before you were a girl so I still love you now" seems so much better than "you were my best friend but now you're hot". Not saying that I wouldn't have trouble dealing with a friend who suddenly turned into a babe. I guess continuing to love someone despite how they change is better than starting to love someone because of the changes.
Hmmm, I always got the feeling that Asuta's reasoning in the manga was one of opportunism. He knew he liked boy-Hasumu, but now Hasumu's got boobies "lucky!".

I never got the feeling that his feelings towards Hasumu pre-change was anything but friendship.
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Old 2006-01-24, 10:01   Link #271
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I'd say that Asuta's the worst victim of Hazumu's sex change. I do understand his feelings, now that Hazumu is one of the hottest girls around, it's undeniable that he WILL be attracted to her, being a male and all.

We don't have much detail on how he and Hazumu interacted with each other before Hazumu's sex change, but I'd wager it's on the normal guy with guy relationship, and I'm basing this off a manga chapter where he really really gets "tortured" , but I won't give any details.

His problem I guess is complicated by the fact that Hazumu's totally interacting with him like old guy friends, y'know, with all the guy "thingies", with the only problem of him being in a girl's body. Meh... I guess you'll just have to wait for that particular Asuta manga chapter to be animated.
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Old 2006-01-24, 10:41   Link #272
Maceart
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Asuta is the winner of it all. He used to be a "gay buddy" type of figure in the anime, but now he's a lead of a harem! Fancy that!

Anyways, I pity Asuta the worst, he's always the one being left out.

And what's Ayuki's role in this anime anyways... she's always a motherly and overarching figure to the other girls.
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Old 2006-01-24, 10:49   Link #273
Eclipze
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maceart
Asuta is the winner of it all. He used to be a "gay buddy" type of figure in the anime, but now he's a lead of a harem! Fancy that!

Anyways, I pity Asuta the worst, he's always the one being left out.

And what's Ayuki's role in this anime anyways... she's always a motherly and overarching figure to the other girls.
A minor spoiler from the manga, but I think that...
Spoiler:
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Old 2006-01-24, 11:38   Link #274
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Being a video quality fanatic, I downloaded ALL versions of kashimashi ep 1. Doremi had a different translation at the end which says "Memories in my heart" whereas TT-DA had "My breasts are heavy" I'd go with the latter. So Doremi's out. Next I got ALL three versions of TT's kashimashi ep1. Final decision? The h264 version. The first edition had separate sub file... T_T;;;... The v2 ones, the divx version has its colours MUCH MORE washed out and the lines are blur. Thus I picked h264 version of the lot and was happy UNTIL


Now I have to choose between subs or video quality.... grrrr.... Maybe I'll just go Doremi afterall...
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Old 2006-01-24, 13:28   Link #275
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I consider Diedrupo's post about this not being a true yuri show to be a bit of a troll, although there are some good points buried in it. To me, it seems awfully extreme to condemn a show utterly for not being a "true" yuri manga, or to condemn "Japanese fanboys" as a group. I recently heard someone say that everyone should have the right to their own preferences in religion, politics and sex. That includes both "Japanese fanboys" and Diedrupo.

On the one hand, Hazumu did not have some simple "sex change" operation. He was reconstituted as a girl from the DNA in each cell on up. He is certainly a girl in every physical aspect. If girlxgirl=yuri, then this is definitely a yuri show. I have no expectation at all of Hazumu being changed back into a male.

On the other hand, Hazumu can't help retaining a trace of male memories. And the show is clearly not letting you forget she was once a male: the short hair is intentional.

In the end, I agree that this is not a yuri show in the way that Oniisama-e or Utena or even Marimite is. I don't expect our sisters at lililicious to find it particularly wonderful, though I could be wrong. The first thing I notice is that there is no big, strong masculine female figure. Tomari is sort of masculine, but not in the way she's drawn, and she partakes of the charming effeminate sentimentality that is a hallmark of this show, and that I personally find very attractive.
Spoiler for NoSanninWa's classification of yuri shows, including plot-spoilers:
I also agree that this show is a window into what turns on a subset of male anime fans, both in Japan and elsewhere. This is the most throughgoing version I know of the boy-becomes-girl meme in anime and manga. This is a boy who actually becomes a girl, both physically and emotionally -- unlike the boy in, say, Pretty Face. I don't see this as a gay meme. Personally, I find yaoi too uncomfortable to watch but the boy-becomes-girl meme fascinating. Perhaps it's an enjoyable fantasy for guys who aren't especially masculine but who also aren't gay. I have long thought that the young girls in a lot of anime and manga are not just objects of affection, but figures to identify with. They seem to me to be examples of Jung's anima figure: the female embodiment of a male psyche.
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Old 2006-01-24, 13:37   Link #276
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btw, is hazumu's male VA is the same when he turned into a girl?
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Old 2006-01-24, 14:13   Link #277
Kaoru Chujo
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Originally Posted by Cyz
btw, is hazumu's male VA is the same when he turned into a girl?
Yes. Ueda Kana (a girl who played Yumi in Maria-sama ga Miteru, Mikan in Gakuen Alice, Petoko in Petopeto-san, etc.).
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Old 2006-01-24, 14:23   Link #278
JediNight
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DA/TT has it wrong "omoi, mune no naka ni" is not my breasts are heavy. 重い is the omoi for heavy, but this isn't what Hazumu is referring to here. 思い is the omoi for feelings, which is the omoi Hazumu is using in this case. "mune no naka ni" is "inside my chest" then literally. In this context though the statement would be: "Feelings in my heart." (Mune can mean breast, chest, or heart depending on the context of the sentence)

Last edited by JediNight; 2006-01-24 at 16:13.
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Old 2006-01-24, 18:03   Link #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo
On the one hand, Hazumu did not have some simple "sex change" operation. He was reconstituted as a girl from the DNA in each cell on up. He is certainly a girl in every physical aspect. If girlxgirl=yuri, then this is definitely a yuri show. I have no expectation at all of Hazumu being changed back into a male.
For all we know this was done on purpose and the alien was lying about not being able to change Hazumu back. At any rate, the most important part of Hazumu, her mind, is just as male as it was in the first place. Though I will express some doubts that Hazumu's mind was ever very male.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo
Spoiler for NoSanninWa's classification of yuri shows, including plot-spoilers:
Whoa. Please don't misunderstand me. I didn't mean that the girls have to end up together for it to be yuri. MariMite is undeniably yuri, but it is left competely vague if the girls have any romantic feeling at all.

I only meant that the writers invariably lack commitment. In almost all yuri, either the feelings aren't clearly spelled out as romantic, they don't end up together or else a girl isn't really a girl. These things are true, but I never meant to imply that it isn't in the yuri or shoujo-ai genre.
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Old 2006-01-24, 18:19   Link #280
JediNight
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For all we know this was done on purpose and the alien was lying about not being able to change Hazumu back. At any rate, the most important part of Hazumu, her mind, is just as male as it was in the first place. Though I will express some doubts that Hazumu's mind was ever very male.
We're over-analyzing again I'm sure, but for arguments sake this is debatable. If the entire rest of the body was altered to the DNA-level, the brain was invariably altered as well. If for no other reason than the head would be a different size/shape and as such the brain wouldn't fit correctly anymore.

I would definitely still agree that Hazumu is a girl with the experiences of a male to this point. Albeit as you said, it could be argued that much of the experience was indeed already rather feminine to begin with ^_^;; What with Tomari being Hazumu's "guardian" growing up, and the hugely over-protective parenting that is evident in Ep1.
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