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Old 2013-02-18, 09:56   Link #121
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
If if if if if. The fact is, he wasn't using it.
neither was itachi when he ambushed team 7 on their way to save gaara.... and yet they took precaution not to look into his eyes.... you really just don't get it and there's no point in continuing on with this....

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Tobirama isn't under a genjutsu right now, nor has he burst into flames.
never said he was. you like changing the subject and putting words in my mouth to defend your baseless points.

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If no one is doing any shooting and has no intention of shooting ever, it'd be paranoid to go all like KYAAAAAAAA HE'S GOT A GUN!
again putting words in my mouth.... i specifically said nobody has to freak out.... also, an enemy has no way of knowing that his enemy has no intention of shooting.... you're just putting your own thoughts in a fictional character's mind and stating it like a fact
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Old 2013-02-18, 10:32   Link #122
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It may be that they didn't bother taking much caution because they knew they were already subjugated to Oro and Sasuke's will via the edo-tensei, which they already know the properties of full well.
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Old 2013-02-18, 11:21   Link #123
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
neither was itachi when he ambushed team 7 on their way to save gaara.... and yet they took precaution not to look into his eyes.... you really just don't get it and there's no point in continuing on with this....

again putting words in my mouth.... i specifically said nobody has to freak out.... also, an enemy has no way of knowing that his enemy has no intention of shooting.... you're just putting your own thoughts in a fictional character's mind and stating it like a fact
I did not mean to put words in your mouth. I apologize if I misunderstood you.

All I'm saying is, I don't see a problem with Tobirama not reacting to it, since Tobirama had no reason to believe that Sasuke would use the eyes to attack right then and there. So that doesn't necessarily hint at an immunity to doujutsu.

Concerning the word I bolded there. Sasuke and Tobirama are not enemies right now. They are, in fact, just talking to eachother.

Concerning the encounter with Itachi, that was a combat situation, so they had every reason to believe he would use his eyes offensively.
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Old 2013-02-18, 12:24   Link #124
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Artful Dodger View Post
It may be that they didn't bother taking much caution because they knew they were already subjugated to Oro and Sasuke's will via the edo-tensei, which they already know the properties of full well.
i thought about that, but at the time sasuke showed off his MS, tobirama still believed that he could break out of the edo-tensei. it was only afterward that he tried and failed. so since he thought he could break free from ET, he should have been wary of the MS since that has the potential to put him under an inescapable genjutsu

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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I did not mean to put words in your mouth. I apologize if I misunderstood you.
no worries

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All I'm saying is, I don't see a problem with Tobirama not reacting to it, since Tobirama had no reason to believe that Sasuke would use the eyes to attack right then and there. So that doesn't necessarily hint at an immunity to doujutsu.
he has no reason to think he wouldn't. tobirama was confident he could break out of ET. so i assume he was also confident he could break out of or otherwise beat any MS techniques as well. if he wasn't confident, then he would have acted the slightest bit worried. since he didn't, i would like an explanation as to why. that's all i'm saying.

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Concerning the word I bolded there. Sasuke and Tobirama are not enemies right now. They are, in fact, just talking to eachother.
we disagree here big time. anyone who summons a dead soul back to the living world against the person's will with the intent of controlling them is an enemy in my book. especially given the tumultuous history that the senju and uchiha have. sasuke was also clearly with orochimaru who is tobirama's enemy given what happened last time with ET.

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Concerning the encounter with Itachi, that was a combat situation, so they had every reason to believe he would use his eyes offensively.
the last time tobirama was summoned with ET it was a combat situation. and i guarantee that this will become a combat situation once sasuke gets his answers. which is another reason he could have used MS on tobirama. to make him say more than he wanted.
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Old 2013-02-18, 13:06   Link #125
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I am also interested also in the senju apparent lack of concern for the sharingan be it either gimmick or otherwise...

reading 619 and 620 again, we have the second explaining the "symptom," sharingan, and a bit later shodai calling sasuke a "pure uchiha" which imo meant not yet affected by strong emotion/grief/loss or whatever. then sasuke flashes his sharingan to say yes ive been affected and more so ive become powerful as a result. the senju bros. are unconcerned but why should they be "right now"? while this could turn into a combat situation, sasuke as already interrogated the sandaime (and nidaime) thus showing he is currently not interested in a fight. he wants answers to some pretty heavy questions...it just didnt look like he was displaying his eyes in aggression. (to be honest, if sasuke had flashed his EMS id certainly expect somebody in the room to guard up lol...but considering the experience they have with the sharingan, i wouldn't be surprised if they were unphased by it as well).
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Old 2013-02-18, 18:24   Link #126
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i thought about that, but at the time sasuke showed off his MS, tobirama still believed that he could break out of the edo-tensei. it was only afterward that he tried and failed. so since he thought he could break free from ET, he should have been wary of the MS since that has the potential to put him under an inescapable genjutsu

no worries

he has no reason to think he wouldn't. tobirama was confident he could break out of ET. so i assume he was also confident he could break out of or otherwise beat any MS techniques as well. if he wasn't confident, then he would have acted the slightest bit worried. since he didn't, i would like an explanation as to why. that's all i'm saying.

we disagree here big time. anyone who summons a dead soul back to the living world against the person's will with the intent of controlling them is an enemy in my book. especially given the tumultuous history that the senju and uchiha have. sasuke was also clearly with orochimaru who is tobirama's enemy given what happened last time with ET.

the last time tobirama was summoned with ET it was a combat situation. and i guarantee that this will become a combat situation once sasuke gets his answers. which is another reason he could have used MS on tobirama. to make him say more than he wanted.
Isn't it cause he's a zombie? I mean if you're a zombie they can pull out a sharingan a gun and an a-bomb... but zombies don't give a damn... cause they are already dead... that's just me reading into it in a very shallow manner... well i'm out.
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Old 2013-02-18, 18:46   Link #127
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i thought about that, but at the time sasuke showed off his MS, tobirama still believed that he could break out of the edo-tensei. it was only afterward that he tried and failed. so since he thought he could break free from ET, he should have been wary of the MS since that has the potential to put him under an inescapable genjutsu
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Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
I am also interested also in the senju apparent lack of concern for the sharingan be it either gimmick or otherwise...
I do agree here that Sasuke has only flashed his EMS briefly and it didn't seem to be with much aggression. He didn't release any killing intent which is usually how he lets others know he's not playing around, (like when he first meets Sai or his fights against Deidra and the Raikage). So I wouldn't even call it "pointing a gun", more like pulling back your coat and revealing you carry a gun. Even putting that aside, what exactly could even be accomplished placing them in a genjutsu?

There's no reason to confuse/trick them with an illusion. They all pretty much have zero control over their movement (Tobirama began to resist only after Sasuke had already shut off his EMS, and then put in his place quickly after that), the only exception is Hashirama who is already cooperating. They are all sharing info freely so no reason to use genjutsu to force them to reveal what they know. The only possible use is to place the Hokage in an illusion which causes pain. Again, pointless except to subdue them. So I don't see how genjutsu is of much use to Sasuke, or why it would be much concern for the Hokage.
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Old 2013-02-19, 02:34   Link #128
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That's what I'm saying. If Sasuke had any intent to attack, people skilled as a Hokage should be able to pick up on that.

Conversely they can lower their guard if Sasuke didn't have any intent to attack.
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Old 2013-02-19, 04:17   Link #129
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
that's basically my point. we know the senju have strong bodies and wills and are jacks of all trades which basically means nothing specific. i want to know what exactly they are capable of to justify them being on the same level as the uchiha. and if they dont have any specific power that will be revealed later, then i'll be disappointed in kishi's aggrandizement of the senju over the past couple years. i already am disappointed since so far it makes no sense that they dont even exist anymore... but that can hopefully be explained soon.
The last part of my sentence you cut out of your quote was rather important to my point. You keep saying you wonder what the regular Senju has to offer against a regular Uchiha but you do not know the extent of power of any of them.
We've never seen a regular Senju and the only known feat of a regular Uchiha is to be instantly beaten by Itachi when 3 cops went to ask him about Shisui's death and even those were probably above average considering they were Sharingan users in the 1st division.
What I'm saying is that all the abilities you listed from the Uchiha clan aren't from the average Uchiha ninja joe and that you're asking for a particular ability from the Senju when the might of their clan precisely came from the fact that their superhuman physical ability meant they were very good at whatever they chose to specialize.
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that is true that everyone looks, but the senju are supposed to know the most about the uchiha so i would expect some caution around a powerful uchiha with MS eyes. since they dont have caution i expect that they have some sort of counter to the sharingan that is not revealed yet. but yea, it's a problem with the story that other people look into it and sasuke never genjutsus them instantly. it's partly explained that sasuke cant use genjutsu that well, at least not like itachi, but people who never met him have no reason to know that. they should prepare for the worst. i think it is an issue in the storytelling since opponents' wariness of looking at the MS is sporadic and conforms to kishi's needs at the given time. my point is just that of all people, the senju should know better. or maybe they do know better and we will be given a reason for their carelessness
Sasuke is in the top 5, maybe 3, Genjutsu user in the show, he one shotted a Jounin specialized in Genjutsu in passing while dealing with the Raikage, it has nothing to do with ability but everything do to with storytelling. Despite the fact that Sasuke fighting style isn't about Genjutsu the author usually has to invent a new reason Genjutsu cannot work every times Sasuke fights someone (and a couple of times simply ignored it altogether) but that's when they fight. When characters talk it never has been an issue, Kishimoto doesn't bother to have character not look at him because it'd be quickly tedious I suppose so I just can't see a reason why you'd get your panty in a knot about that now when it's been that way since forever.
There used to be the same never-ending argument about Jiraiya being immune to Uchiha Genjutsu because he looked at Itachi when they meet, it was nonsense then and it's still nonsense now. They're just talking is all.

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just an ordinary sharingan has been raised to god level powers thanks to izanagi and izanami.
Those aren't average jutsu just because they don't require the MS. Hell not every Uchiha had the Sharingan in the first place.
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Old 2013-02-19, 08:48   Link #130
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What's the point of the Alliance winning this war if its not by its own power. If they are going to be saved by DEAD people then what's the point of their existence?
To be fair they're being attacked by a dead guy that refuses to stay in the ground.
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Old 2013-02-19, 09:28   Link #131
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What's the point of the Alliance winning this war if its not by its own power. If they are going to be saved by DEAD people then what's the point of their existence?
Replace dead people by Naruto, does that give more meaning to their existence?
This whole war is about zombies, Monster Minds and an over-sized pokemon, what's four more dead MVP at this point?
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Old 2013-02-19, 10:18   Link #132
itachi-san314
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The last part of my sentence you cut out of your quote was rather important to my point. You keep saying you wonder what the regular Senju has to offer against a regular Uchiha but you do not know the extent of power of any of them.
We've never seen a regular Senju and the only known feat of a regular Uchiha is to be instantly beaten by Itachi when 3 cops went to ask him about Shisui's death and even those were probably above average considering they were Sharingan users in the 1st division.
What I'm saying is that all the abilities you listed from the Uchiha clan aren't from the average Uchiha ninja joe and that you're asking for a particular ability from the Senju when the might of their clan precisely came from the fact that their superhuman physical ability meant they were very good at whatever they chose to specialize
but the thing is that we have only seen 1 senju have godlike powers, whereas we have known that 100s of uchiha have had sharingan, several uchiha have had MS and that izanagi was used so much that an uchiha had to invent izanami to stop its widespread use (which in turn is another godlike power that would work on a strong enemy). so right there we have many uchiha fighting on god-level powers over the course of their history vs. just the 1 anomaly senju in hashirama. i am simply saying that i want to know what the senju can do that isn't just a powerful ninjutsu or a lot of stamina. that doesn't cut it for me. maybe it does for you and others who disagree with my simple questioning, but for me, the senju need something that counteracts the godlike sharingan or their rivalry makes no sense. no need to get your panties in a knot over it

the way i see your line of reasoning: very strong nature ninjutsu + lots of stamina = ninjutsu reflection and copying + MS level genjutsu + eternal black flames + susano'o + the ability to rewrite history + whatever else we still have yet to know about the sharingan's powers which is at least a couple techniques I'm sure

that doesn't add up for me like it does for you and others

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Old 2013-02-19, 12:09   Link #133
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Oh I see what you're doing here. Not sure if you're aware of this, but you are essentially inflating every little tidbit about the sharingan, and conversely deflating every Senju thing.

For example, I've yet to see a single Uchiha do all of that shit all at once. Madara has shown to be able to do most of those things, but he's Madara so he -really- doesn't count. You're also ignoring that cute little detail that usage of Izanagi takes away the light of one's eye forever. Izanami takes it from both. Basically, if everyone was using it like you claim they did, they would all have gone blind and nothing could've stopped them from being wiped out.
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Old 2013-02-19, 12:11   Link #134
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Replace dead people by Naruto, does that give more meaning to their existence?
This whole war is about zombies, Monster Minds and an over-sized pokemon, what's four more dead MVP at this point?
That makes sense I guess But still, I don't think Kishi should push the present gen even more than he already has.
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Old 2013-02-19, 12:13   Link #135
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Replace dead people by Naruto, does that give more meaning to their existence?
Meaning to whose existence? What dead people? There are no dead people to be replaced by Naruto. Unless you mean Madara, and replacing Madara with Naruto would be kind of weird.
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Old 2013-02-19, 12:39   Link #136
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Oh I see what you're doing here. Not sure if you're aware of this, but you are essentially inflating every little tidbit about the sharingan, and conversely deflating every Senju thing.

For example, I've yet to see a single Uchiha do all of that shit all at once. Madara has shown to be able to do most of those things, but he's Madara so he -really- doesn't count. You're also ignoring that cute little detail that usage of Izanagi takes away the light of one's eye forever. Izanami takes it from both. Basically, if everyone was using it like you claim they did, they would all have gone blind and nothing could've stopped them from being wiped out.
No, he's saying Senju being competitive rivals to the Uchiha isn't convincing given what we know of their abilities, which is nearly nothing. He wants to know what abilities the Senju possessed that placed them on the Uchiha clan's caliber. We know very little of the Senju's abilities, so theres really nothing to "deflate" : /
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Old 2013-02-19, 13:50   Link #137
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Well, given the information that we do know…both clans are of direct lineage of the So6…spiritual chakra vs physical chakra…exactly how these two chakra balance is unknown (i would say like oil and water, but I'm thinking more like fire and oxygen) and perhaps the question some of us are asking. regardless, the point is due to their origin as the original OP ninja clans, they rival each other. I'm assuming their shared lineage simply makes them talented ninja on equal footing (a cut above all other ninja) that is, until the uchiha awaken the sharingan…per tobirama, doing so "awakens something even greater than what the senju know…"

through out history the clans were called on to face each other because in terms of pure talent of ninjutsu, no other clan could match up…but when the uchiha unlocked the sharingan the tables likely turned but since they were such a sensitive group they kept each other in check. in regards to fighting the senju, it was probably discovered that as long as there were numbers they could manage a sharingan fight…except for the case of madara (and his brother) who developed stronger eyes and became the leader…he introduced all these crazy unbelievable techniques to the story that seem to make me scratch my head on how the senju were able to keep up…but since the story has yet to mention anyone else with that level of power, the senju didn't have to keep up…they had hashirama

if there is a senju gimmick i wanna know it, but i think what i would like to no more is why hashirama so special...
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Old 2013-02-19, 13:52   Link #138
itachi-san314
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Oh I see what you're doing here. Not sure if you're aware of this, but you are essentially inflating every little tidbit about the sharingan, and conversely deflating every Senju thing.

For example, I've yet to see a single Uchiha do all of that shit all at once. Madara has shown to be able to do most of those things, but he's Madara so he -really- doesn't count. You're also ignoring that cute little detail that usage of Izanagi takes away the light of one's eye forever. Izanami takes it from both. Basically, if everyone was using it like you claim they did, they would all have gone blind and nothing could've stopped them from being wiped out.
as usual you do not see what i did there...

the abilities on the left are what we know the senju to be capable of. the abilities on the right are what we know the uchiha to be capable of. do they all do it, no... i didnt say they did. please stop putting words in my mouth. it's getting tiresome. the fact of the matter is that many uchiha are capable of those abilities. you're completely ignoring their 'BLOOD-SOAKED PAST' of stealing each others' eyes and you're also ignoring a bunch of other things that i dont feel like repeating. suffice it to say that sacrificing a sharingan isnt a big deal when they were stealing each others' eyes anyway
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Old 2013-02-19, 14:20   Link #139
Artimus_Prime
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as usual you do not see what i did there...

the abilities on the left are what we know the senju to be capable of. the abilities on the right are what we know the uchiha to be capable of. do they all do it, no... i didnt say they did. please stop putting words in my mouth. it's getting tiresome. the fact of the matter is that many uchiha are capable of those abilities. you're completely ignoring their 'BLOOD-SOAKED PAST' of stealing each others' eyes and you're also ignoring a bunch of other things that i dont feel like repeating. suffice it to say that sacrificing a sharingan isnt a big deal when they were stealing each others' eyes anyway
greetings itachi-san314...
so about this Blood-Soaked past...
you think there were other uchihas to obtain the MS and EMS? because i feel like the requirements are quite strict. 5 of our 6 canon MS users (we know little about izuna) were fairly docile people who subsequently witnessed/endured great loss after first having a deep love lol...i feel like going a murder raid in quest for power wouldnt earn you the MS...thus izanagi is likely the most power an "average" uchiha reigned in and perhaps didnt give the senju that much trouble...idk. chapter 621 needs to come wit it!
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:26   Link #140
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but the thing is that we have only seen 1 senju have godlike powers, whereas we have known that 100s of uchiha have had sharingan, several uchiha have had MS and that izanagi was used so much that an uchiha had to invent izanami to stop its widespread use (which in turn is another godlike power that would work on a strong enemy). so right there we have many uchiha fighting on god-level powers over the course of their history vs. just the 1 anomaly senju in hashirama.
This is quite simply entirely wrong.
Yes out of the 3 Senju we know only 1 possesses god-like power, the others two "only" being Kage-level. There is however also only one Uchiha who reached god-like power and that is Madara. The MS alone is no near god like and is completely irrelevant to the discussion anyway, the first MS user was Madara and there have only been a handful of them none of whom were average by definition. I'll not even go into your claim that Izanami and Izanagi were widespread and often used which is mathematically impossible considering the cost because even then their use doesn't make someone god-like by any stretch of the imagination. Izanagi for Uchiha who aren't enhanced with Senju DNA can only last for the briefest of time and is merely a panic button that will sacrifice your sight to avoid death. It is a powerful ability but it's not a game changer, an average fighter (assuming an average Ninja CAN use this in the first place) will still be average with it, he will cheat death once lose an eye and still be the same average fighter and what then? Not everybody has a Sharingarm, a body made of Senju wood or a few score of Sharingan on his wall.
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i am simply saying that i want to know what the senju can do that isn't just a powerful ninjutsu or a lot of stamina. that doesn't cut it for me.
No? Because that's basically what Sage-mode is and it made Naruto Kage level.
There are basically two types of power up, the overall increase in physical abilities and new particular techniques. That's the difference between Sage mode and the MS for example. If Naruto was a game it'd be the difference between a new spell and better stats, the latter isn't a flashy as the former but it's no less effective.
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