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Old 2012-08-02, 17:28   Link #321
Keroko
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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
The arc? This is what I believe you're talking about. That looks like the things I showed you before.
Actually, I think Aki is referring to the humongous glaringly obvious cross shaped blast behind that arc.
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Old 2012-08-02, 20:21   Link #322
Akiyoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
The arc? This is what I believe you're talking about. That looks like the things I showed you before.
LOL no, in fact, after watching the image mroe carefully i noticed the small depiction of the "slash" inside the humongous white aura of energy, also...

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Actually, I think Aki is referring to the humongous glaringly obvious cross shaped blast behind that arc.
Thanks Keroko, i haven't noticed it until watching it more carefully, it's not a circular aura, is a cross-shapped one which actually makes a lot more sense now xD


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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Baseless. She did both seemingly without much effort.
Baseless? see Cypha's reaction to the iceberg on the very images you posted, then go back and compare that with her reactions while blasting Agito and Cutting Signum. Not only looked much more desperate here, the magnitude of the attack also doesn't have comparission. She used two anti-personel attacks with ease but here she launched what can be rightfully classified as an Anti-Fortress attack which was clearly more costly to pullout to her.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
We see how aura looks when it's surrounding Cypha on two separate occasions and it looks nothing like what happens with the iceberg.
Because it wasn't the same attack, it's like saying Nanoha didn't fired Excellion Buster because the aura is not the same as whn she fires Divine Shooter xDU

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
This is fiction, are you not remembering that?
A lame excuse, even fiction base some of it's feats on reality. Specially the "oh so acclaimed for it's realism" FORCE manga xDU I'm perfectly councsious it's fiction, but even fiction must make some sort of sense, nothing on the plot had suguessted something like what you mentioned is even possible under the conditions you imposed. The only sword slash believably able to slice a mountain-sized target with a mere slash is Berdiche's Jet Zamber attack where the blade extend to ridiculous lenghts.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Yet I provided evidence of that.
Evidence i find debatable and do had explained why it failed to convince me. I've already explained every single point you had brought here.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
This is true and I never said it wasn't. You used it as an argument that the ice was mostly still intact.
Now you're the one putting words on my mouth. I used it as a counter-argument of your statement of "the 2nd iceberg being bigger than the first one". I never said something about the second iceberg being intact or anything similar to it.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Thanks for repeating me.
I'm glad we can agree on something for a change so you welcome xD

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
I never said she broke her Round Shield ... there's no reason to assume the Round Shield carries a significant difference in defensive power. This is still wholly impressive.
Yet you used Round Shield as a testament of Fate's sturdiness and to justify the Signum slash example. Defenser is quite weaker than Round Shield it's even on the manual of the series. Defenser blocks, Round Shield deflects.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Yet Fate was physically contending with her ... This is indisputable.
That's an overstatement. Fate specifically referred to how overpowered she is by Signum in the physical department while Signum also thinks about how outmatched she's in speed by Fate. But i won't discuss too much here since Fate was specifically described as a prodigy in almost everything. She's also an enhaced clone of Alicia from Project F, of the girls (Nanoha, Arisa, Suzuka, Hayate and Fate) Fate is easilly the strongest and the most athletic with the possible exception of Suzuka. On the A's manga the fact Suzuka was actually able to counter Fate's impossible serving on a volleyball game (Fate jumps like 5 meters into the air, even Nanoha was jawdropping xDU) was treated as something incredible and very unusual.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Yet feats say otherwise. She did better against Zest.
She did better against Zest but didn't demonstrated beign physically strogner than Vita. Signum defeated Zest mostly trough skill rather than strenght, she attacked the weakpoint of a spear and managed to destroy Zest device, then landed her blow first and took his life. Nothing of that implies greater strenght than what Vita did, it does imply better skills and greater finesse as a weapons master, tough.

Vita actually had the upperhand against Zest for most of their battle, a fact both Zest and Agito acknowledged. Zest was in the need to pull out an ultimate technique (that also worsened his already crappy condition) which was what destroyed Graf Eisen and defeated Vita. Signum never faced that kind of power, more likely because Zest is simply unable to do it anymore by that point (or because he was trying to keep himself alive long enough to see Regius).

[QUOTE=VezSketch;4286722]The attack I mentioned by named and specifically said I wasn't talking about, I even went to the detail of telling you what it did to Nanoha .... Do you see what I'm talking about? She broke her round shield before doing that attack.[QUOTE=VezSketch;4286722]

I don't remeber Reinforce breaking her shield without magic, but just to be sure i'll go and watch their fight again just to be sure before answering.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Your swing doesn't necessarily need to be the size of a mountain to destroy one, this is a common occurrence across fiction and real life physics can't allow you to ignore what we actually see happen. The energy behind the attack is still apparent.
Call it apparent or what you want but is still there. Again, while closely watched the image i was able to see the "noraml slash" effect you referred to several times ....surrounded by the much more noticeable effect of the cross-shaped beam slash xDU

And by the way, while it's true you doesn't need a big sword to slice a mountain you're indeed required to pull out some kind of unnatural force/energy to do the trick. Most fictional works depict that (Fate/Zero for example. Saber destroyed completely a mountain-sized Eldritch Abomination with one swing of her sword Excaliburs ...which got translated in a humongous beam of holy magic xD). The only works i've seen moutains get cut the way you describe is in comedies like Dr. Slum and the such xDU

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Feats say otherwise. Signum even did better against Zest.
Read above for details xDU

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
You can't explain away something this gravely important with something as baseless as that theory. We see her hold it up and swing it in a fraction of a second. It happened, why would floating suddenly make it easier to lift? Wow.
Another implausibility in the realm of physics. Even assuming Vita will really be strong enough to swing a hammer of that size it wouldn't be such a fluid movement (gosh, even Superman would had take a bit to lift it xDU). To be fair the hammer was becoming larger during the swing, not before. The speed which Vita did the feat also suggest magical support.

But yeah, it's an assumption so you can complain about it to your heart's content xDU

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Also, remember Vita's hammer breaks when she hits something more powerful than her hammer. Zest physically breaks her mini gigantform. Its durability comes from magic, regardless of size, it should remain the same.
Nothing to discuss here, it sounds logicall. Graf Eisen, as a magical hammer can alter it's mass, size AND weight to suit Vita's needs. Point taken xD

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Yet Nanoha can physically contend with Vita in A's.
Armed with a barrier jacket, a powerfull cartridge system and AAA-level of magical power even i could contend with Vita xD!

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Going entirely off point and actually not refuting what I said. Of course, she couldn't do it without magic. It doesn't discredit what happened.
It does discredit it's value as a physical feat, tough xD

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
This is baseless. LMCA has shown no indication of doing that. Sorry, but this sounds like someone you pulled out of your ass.
Your explanation also doesn't sound too plausible. To make a shockwave by a mere swing Fate should had done it at incredible speed. Which wasn't the case it wasn't a somewhat slow swing compared with what she does normally. If we're talking abut the swing she did before using Jet Zamber on the Defense Program. It looked similar in effect to the barrel shot performed before Excellion Buster.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Which wouldn't matter.
It matters because it means Fate can manipulate the weight of the blade. Light is weightless xDU

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
This has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. You're diverting from the point once again to argue about something else.
It has everything to do with it since you're bringing up again your misuse of the "physical feat" adjetive and i'm again bringing out why it doesn't appliies in that fashion.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
I never brought up her natural strength in the first place. With her powers, Nanoha physically back hands Dieci. No questions.
Physical feat does have to do with her natural strenght. "Magically Enhaced meele attack" or "magically enhaced physical feat/prowess/attack" would be more accurate xDU
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Old 2013-02-19, 11:42   Link #323
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NEW SUBJECT

Do you feel that the interstellar (and possibly multi-universal) nature of the Nanoha setting did the franchise any favors? Keeping in mind the powers of personal flight, personal teleportation, and the power of the TSAB's ships to shuttle and teleport people between worlds.

A single planet is an extremely large place. A single continent is incredibly huge and capable of containing many different environments. One planet can have several continents and dozens upon dozens of nations.


Do you feel that the first two seasons could have all happened in the same dimension without seriously effecting the story?

More drastically, do you feel that essentially the same story could have been told all on the same planet? That is, with Al Hazard being a precursor, global civilization on Nanoha's world, with the Belkan Empire attempting to recreate that global control through warfare with other national powers.


Alternatively, how might the story have been served in a Kingdom Hearts type setting, where each dimension is just one single, tiny planet, orbitted by its own small sun and moon?

That is, dropping the "interstellar" entirely while keeping the "multi-universal".
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Old 2013-02-19, 11:46   Link #324
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In the same dimension? Yes. Easily. Just turn dimension traveling into FTL and you're set.

On the same planet? No. Not without seriously altering the story of the first two series.
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Old 2013-02-19, 11:51   Link #325
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Well is actually hard to tell. I say the multidimensional setting with the large space ships and multiple dimensions interconnected with the Dimensional Sea was kind of a good idea done wrong. Even with that elements to be take in to consideration and with how that can actually be use to change settings and ideas the truth is most stories tend to be focus on one planet: Earth and later Mid-Childa. The existence of the several worlds didn’t add anything because a no point we travel there and even when we do travel between worlds that doesn’t really add much to the overall impression the world makes on me and left the setting feeling rather empty despite its suppose long setting and scale with several dozen worlds and a giant space navy.

To me this was just overambision that really didn’t help much. At least not on the story telling of the first three seasons because how those were focus on single planets and even Force that has the most jumps around worlds really make those worlds look empty and just a the small space they are visiting. What I mean is that even with such large universe to explore the characters feel restricted in to small areas in different worlds and in the end could be done in just one planet and keep the feeling of adventure or mystery. Really the whole space thing adds little because of how little we use those elements or how little it really matters all things consider.

And since I don’t know Triangle Hearts I can’t say much but this setting does feel like every single dimension is a tiny planet with their own little sun and moon.
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Old 2013-02-19, 11:59   Link #326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
On the same planet? No. Not without seriously altering the story of the first two series.
Yeah, that was a really silly question.


Quote:
In the same dimension? Yes. Easily. Just turn dimension traveling into FTL and you're set.
One can credit the Book of Darkness for allowing the Wolkenritter to affect personal teleportations into completely different solar systems. I mean, that's one of the least broken things it can do, and it's easily related to its own powers of teleportation.

But what about the Arthra's ability to teleport Nanoha and Fate directly after them... but NOT gather up and send reinforcements?


Though I suppose it's possible that Lindy decided that the Enforcers simply weren't a match for the Wolkenritter, and would only ever be deployed together against a single target so that they could erect another capture field.

But Amy didn't send such backup with either of the girls.

So maybe all of the Enforcers were put out of commission when the Annihilation Lightning hit the field spell they were maintaining?
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Old 2013-02-20, 11:25   Link #327
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I personally think this dimension thing to be unnecessarily confusing. Is it supposed to be truly going between universes or just between star systems? That's why I separate FTL from interdimensional travel in Walker between Two Worlds.
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Old 2013-02-20, 11:58   Link #328
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I think the worst part is show empty it feels and how big the multi-universe here is suppose to be. Maybe if we just go with two worlds this could work better. Mid-Childa and Earth both worlds connected thanks to the magic in different dimensions and one where magic was discover and use to develop tech and the other without such luck. Then it comes down of how big each world is and really we will miss nothing in the first two seasons or even StrikerS considering all animes happen in a single world each. Even Force could use a single world to be fair and just have it to be as different as our world is from one region to the other.
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Old 2013-02-20, 13:12   Link #329
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Except... Caro comes from a different world, Erio comes from a different world, Lutecia was placed on a different world and so on.

I don't see how removing those worlds improves the story in any way. If you turn worlds into countries, you're just left with the same confusion, only difference being it's now on the same planet.
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Old 2013-02-20, 13:17   Link #330
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Teleportation skills and technology make planetary colonization a funny thing.

You can colonize only the pleasant parts of a world, rather than the whole world. Cities on different planets in completely different star systems are just one commercial flight (or teleportation) away.
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Old 2013-02-20, 16:37   Link #331
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Those elements doesn’t add really that much. They say “other worlds” and yet we see so little of them and in the end doesn’t really matter. The point being those places are away and will not get in the way of what is going on so: what is the point? In the end I am saying could help to make the magic world look more magical and better develop that several tiny places in dozens if not hundreds of worlds. I mean think about this: one character comes from Administrated world #4 but we never see such world or we don’t appreciate any difference that makes it matter so, why it can’t be just from this place or from the same planet but other parts of the planet? Every single time we set “other worlds” they look so generic and alike that we might as well just have them all living in the same planet I mean, why not?

For its space ships and multidimensional worlds Nanoha never gets the feeling of space adventure or exploration. Is more like action-adventure at best and is often serve just well in one world as show in three anime seasons so I rest my case on that to make things in one world could affect the story just in little bits and force to create a magic world that is large, vast and has dozens of different people just like Earth. In many fiction works we tend to see alien worlds as they have all come together in one giant way of living when we see Earth and we have so many civilizations and different ways of thinking so, why Mid-Childa can’t be like that? To me I say less might be better. Or if you wish to expand then try to make worlds look different and unique instead of empty space to set characters off and from with generic Earth looking environments.

Also the teleportation in Nanoha is a little odd. Can be made with magic or machines and seems to take just a second or several minutes since we do see teleportation happen in just flashes of light from one place to the other and they did mention it might take some time to travel between worlds even with dimensional travel spells. Also we do see ships taking its time to go to one dimension to the next. Maybe make them in different planets works better? I still prefer a single world.
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Old 2013-02-20, 16:55   Link #332
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So, Sansker:

Basically you prefer "alternate dimensions" without interstellar space travel...

Or a Kingdom Heart's set-up, where each world is a single planet is a whole dimension, and "space travel" is indistinguishable from "dimensional travel"?

Do you prefer one over the other?
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Old 2013-02-20, 17:03   Link #333
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Well the first idea always brings me more in to the “alternative reality” where each dimension is a different version of ours. And I think we do have here a Kingdom Heart's setting from the way you describe it but I don’t know much about Kingdom Heart so really I am going from what you say.

Now I don’t prefer one idea above the other since both are good ideas but maybe I want the first idea here because the space ship and multi dimensional thing going with the series is just kind of incomplete to me. Maybe I will like to explore more each idea and not just use it half way made like it is with the series. We have like 100 or more administrated worlds and we know so little about them, even Mid-Childa. So I am going with the first but only using two worlds: ours and Mid-Childa.
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Old 2013-02-20, 17:45   Link #334
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I repeat my question: How does reducing the setting to two worlds improve the story?
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Old 2013-02-20, 18:12   Link #335
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Give Mid-Childa and the magic base civilization more of a story and unique setting. A world with different fauna and creatures than Earth where magic is a power source and etc. I think might help just to make the setting and world feel a little less open and empty. Think like having a few things in a large room. The space left empty just stands out too much.
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Old 2013-02-20, 18:47   Link #336
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Give Mid-Childa and the magic base civilization more of a story and unique setting. A world with different fauna and creatures than Earth where magic is a power source and etc.
We already have that.

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I think might help just to make the setting and world feel a little less open and empty. Think like having a few things in a large room. The space left empty just stands out too much.
Too much? Hardly. In fact, you'd be introducing a ton of plotholes by reducing it because that space has been needed.

Yes, many of the worlds we see aren't superbly developed. The question is: did those worlds that didn't get development need such development? We could have spend an entire episode expanding on the flora and fauna, the climate, its people, their cultures and so on of the world where Nanoha and Vita fought.

But what would the point of doing so be?

Series are limited by screentime, and even manga are limited by page limits. There comes a point where lines need to be drawn on what is needed to advance the story and what is not.

As it stands, there's nothing about the setting that would be better by reducing the setting to two worlds, whereas there is much to lose.
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Old 2013-02-20, 19:03   Link #337
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But you are saying it yourself. Having such many worlds bring too little because of the small time we pass in the story, the heavy focus on two worlds and the overall irrelevance of most of them. So why not just the only two world that seem to matter here? We lose much? Maybe, but at the same time that “much” is just the possibilities to use the several world thing to mean something and no the fact how this have been use.

Besides space needed it? No really. The giant laser in A’s and the base for Nanoha, yes, but they just use them more as locations to wait and then send people out than rather moving objects and explorers. Then in StrikerS the only part is when several space ships fire at the giant banana the Cradle look like and blow it up. I am saying the space is just something that is just so not explore and use that we might as well not have it.
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Old 2013-02-21, 04:48   Link #338
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Because the sole reason our heroes have to solve the problems all on their own is because the TSAB is too wide spread to focus their forces. Remove the spread, and you remove the main reason why it's all down to our heroes.
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Old 2013-02-21, 11:52   Link #339
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No, just make the TSAB have fewer agents and be an organization with a lot of work and few agents. It sure seems like competent people is not something the TSAB has for regular soldiers.

I will admit if this was the case and we only had two worlds the series will need some changes but I am just saying this because the overall large multi world setting is just never really use so might as well not be there. The size of the TSAB and its lack of obvious purpose always bug me. So maybe reducing the size of everything and focus more on what they do as a whole instead of giving vague explanations it sounds better to me. Just that.
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Old 2013-02-21, 12:34   Link #340
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If you claim the TSAB only has a handful of agents the very concept of a magic-reliant society falls apart.

The concept of many worlds is rarely used in the explicit detail you desire, but it is used consistently throughout the series. And the obvious goal of the TSAB has been clear since season 1: Keep their region of the multiverse safe.
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