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Old 2013-02-17, 21:26   Link #61
Kudryavka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Okay, this is starting to turn into the "one drop of black blood equal black" kind of hard line - in other words, nonsense. Definitions aren't always "hard line". At some point, fog is just mist. I'm "white" but I'm 1/16 Apache - does that make me Apache? That's what I'm saying - that though we can make a general statement about any concept, there are likely to always be outliers and hybrids that don't quite fit in any simplistic labeling system
But if you were 1/8 black you are black according to the Man.
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Old 2013-02-17, 21:33   Link #62
bhl88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
I think its time we make a name for a Japanese made anime and another for Western made anime....
Just use anime for Japanese animation and Western animation/cartoons/animation for the West.
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Old 2013-02-17, 21:38   Link #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
Just use anime for Japanese animation and Western animation/cartoons/animation for the West.
But anime like Western animation being called as cartoon is uhm.....

Yeah, they're cartoon but could we distinguish them from Sponge Bob?
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Old 2013-02-17, 21:48   Link #64
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
But anime like Western animation being called as cartoon is uhm.....
"Anime-influenced Animation".

That leads me to conclude the categorization system for media is outright retarded.
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Old 2013-02-18, 16:53   Link #65
ujiuji
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
Except. that would completely knock out Afro Samurai, because it wasn't made exclusively for the "Japanese audience". It was originally voiced in English. Correct me if I am wrong; but Afro Samurai was made for American audiences, when its debut was on SpikeTV.

So, what now? Afro Samurai isn't anime because it wasn't made for the Japanese audience? Of course not.

For any anime "definition" produced, there will always be an exception and inconsistency. This is a topic of art and culture, not science. If there isn't one, something will come along. On top of that, the question of "what is anime or not" is not a black-and-white topic. It never was and never will be, but people refuse to acknowledge that.
If I amend the "To me" in my first post to "My completely subjective and totally non-prescriptive feeling on the matter is that" will you be happier?
As for Afro-Samurai I've not seen it so can't say if it would feel like what I think of as "anime". I certainly wouldn't deny it is Japanese animation.
A story to illustrate my position. A few years ago I came across Tanoshii Moomin Ikka on British television and immediately felt it was anime. Although the character designs and story weren't "anime-style" there was something about it that said Japanese production. The credits revealed it was a Dutch-Japanese co-production. Research seems to indicate it was intended for an international audience from the start. I'm still quite happy to think of it as anime even though it breaks my (non-)rule.
So, I agree with you, and Vexx, about hard and fast definitions. We each have a different concept of anime but there's enough overlap to make the term convenient in discussion, I hope.
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Old 2013-02-18, 19:44   Link #66
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Regardless, within the set of all animation -- we have a clear view on what is definitely "anime". Never in a million years would I question something like Haruhi, Clannad, and even Akagi as not being "anime". For all intents and purposes, series like those are unquestionably "anime". If someone were to come out and say that any of them were "Made in China", that viewpoint will not change.

In contrast, I had long viewed Avatar as an anime, despite not watching it. However, after I watched it fully, the story line had a feeling of anime; but the series falls short visually -- even though it tried. Of course, I was disappointed. The only bright side aims as Avatar being the closest any American studio has come to making anime.

For a long time, I have been going on about the categorization on a visual basis. Story line arguments on this topic have long been irrelevant, because any written story can be ported (and adapted) into any medium. Thus, story line and plot is moot.

However, I would question Crayon Shin Chan, as a Japanese cartoon. Rather than as an anime, because visually, it is on the same level as Spongebob. Many will retain Shin Chan as anime, based on previous points of "production in Japan" and "made for the Japanese audience". Well, out of all the "anime", Shin Chan is one of the most "cartoony".

And so, given this Venn Diagram:
Spoiler:

What goes in that bluish region?

Then there's another factor. You watch something. Does it "feel" like "anime" or not? For Avatar, it did not. For many examples we can name around here, that's an obvious yes. If any non-Japanese studio can produce this same "feel", then they have something going in the "anime" direction. For now, no one other than a Japanese studio can produce this.

I could start pointing at Pixar, but Pixar style-animation is a different set of animation all-together. Part of me is curious as to what would happen if some Japanese studio starts utilizing the 3-D graphics style (CGI) for 100% of an animation project, especially regarding humanoid characters.
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Old 2013-02-18, 20:07   Link #67
Kudryavka
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But I thought anime are cartoons??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merriam Webster
animated cartoon
noun
: a motion picture that is made from a series of drawings, computer graphics, or photographs of inanimate objects (as puppets) and that simulates movement by slight progressive changes in each frame
Or are you saying "anime" = "Japanese style animation" and "cartoon" = "non Japanese style animation"?
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Old 2013-02-18, 20:34   Link #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
But I thought anime are cartoons??

Or are you saying "anime" = "Japanese style animation" and "cartoon" = "non Japanese style animation"?
Bingo. Even I fell into pray to that lexicon.

In the sense that many people use regarding "anime" vs "not anime"... the word "cartoon" had become that term to refer to the latter. However, the term "animation" becomes the blanket term for everything animated, including Pixar. There's no shadow of a doubt for both groups to fall under "animation".
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Old 2013-02-18, 20:45   Link #69
LeoXiao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shyni View Post
It doesn't help that the company called "Manga Entertainment" mainly distributes anime.

edit: Apparently, there's also an anime channel in France called Mangas. That does not help either.
I don't watch anime, I watch douga.
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Old 2013-02-18, 20:57   Link #70
Kudryavka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
Bingo. Even I fell into pray to that lexicon.

In the sense that many people use regarding "anime" vs "not anime"... the word "cartoon" had become that term to refer to the latter. However, the term "animation" becomes the blanket term for everything animated, including Pixar. There's no shadow of a doubt for both groups to fall under "animation".
But at the end of the day do you deny that an anime is a cartoon?
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Old 2013-02-18, 21:01   Link #71
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
But at the end of the day do you deny that an anime is a cartoon?
When comparing Clannad to Bugs Bunny? No.

Regardless, I make no distinction between "anime" and "cartoon" on the basis of (a) where it is made and (b) to which ethnic audience it is aimed at.
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Old 2013-02-18, 21:46   Link #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
When comparing Clannad to Bugs Bunny? No.

Regardless, I make no distinction between "anime" and "cartoon" on the basis of (a) where it is made and (b) to which ethnic audience it is aimed at.
I just deny it with all my power.

I question Shin-chan cause it doesn't look like anime. Pokemon, Speed Racer, Robotech, Nanoha look like anime. Shin-chan looks like some amateurish cartoon, even if it is anime.
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Old 2013-02-18, 21:54   Link #73
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Could we say.. not all Japanese animation are anime? Though I tried putting in my head that Shin Chan is anime... all that comes to me is cute girls is equal to anime... If the females' faces are ugly in the series then its not anime...
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Old 2013-02-18, 21:55   Link #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Could we say.. not all Japanese animation are anime?
Like P&S with GB?
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Old 2013-02-19, 06:40   Link #75
Shyni
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Categorizing things based on "feel" can (or will) get pretty arbitrary. I hear Chibi Maruko Chan and Doraemon get pretty good ratings in Japan, but they don't look like the usual anime style. Surely shows like that are still "Japanese" enough?
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Old 2013-02-19, 06:53   Link #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shyni View Post
Categorizing things based on "feel" can (or will) get pretty arbitrary. I hear Chibi Maruko Chan and Doraemon get pretty good ratings in Japan, but they don't look like the usual anime style. Surely shows like that are still "Japanese" enough?
Yeah... Well, the problem is "Is Japanese cartoons is to be called Anime too?
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:18   Link #77
Kudryavka
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Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
However, I would question Crayon Shin Chan, as a Japanese cartoon. Rather than as an anime, because visually, it is on the same level as Spongebob. Many will retain Shin Chan as anime, based on previous points of "production in Japan" and "made for the Japanese audience". Well, out of all the "anime", Shin Chan is one of the most "cartoony".
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
I just deny it with all my power.

I question Shin-chan cause it doesn't look like anime. Pokemon, Speed Racer, Robotech, Nanoha look like anime. Shin-chan looks like some amateurish cartoon, even if it is anime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Could we say.. not all Japanese animation are anime?
But why would you do this? If that were to be the case, if anime were not just a shorthand term for Japanese animation, then may I ask, what is your definition of anime? I am curious, also to all of you guys. Also under this same definition Avatar would be considered an anime correct? Since I think you all are saying anime is a style.

I only use the word anime as shorthand for Japanese animation. Though I also call them cartoons sometimes, and when I speak Japanese of course I call anything animated anime no matter where it came from. I personally refrain from implying that anime is a style, and that anime just means animation that came from a Japanese company, that's it. For styles I prefer to get specific, like mukoku seki (sic) or realistic or highly stylized or etc.

Last edited by Kudryavka; 2013-02-19 at 15:28.
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:46   Link #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
But why would you do this? If that were to be the case, if anime were not just a shorthand term for Japanese animation, then may I ask, what is your definition of anime? I am curious, also to all of you guys. Also under this same definition Avatar would be considered an anime correct? Since I think you all are saying anime is a style.

I only use the word anime as shorthand for Japanese animation. Though I also call them cartoons sometimes, and when I speak Japanese of course I call anything animated anime no matter where it came from. I personally refrain from implying that anime is a style, and that anime just means animation that came from a Japanese company, that's it. For styles I prefer to get specific, like mukoku seki (sic) or realistic or highly stylized or etc.
My definition of anime? Hand-drawn (mostly) [and I don't really watch too much CG], made from Japan, with cultural marks from Japan (X-men anime had Americans acting Japanese).

Avatar would probably be the only one I recognize as anime or being close to anime (the dialogue is a problem). Else, every other one is animation or cartoon.

The problem is with Panty and Stocking with Garterbelt (cause it looks like PPG).

I guess the topics covered by anime would make it anime. Too much censorship in the West (on TV).
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Old 2013-02-19, 16:22   Link #79
Shyni
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
Avatar would probably be the only one I recognize as anime or being close to anime (the dialogue is a problem).
Well, it wasn't written in Japanese.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
The problem is with Panty and Stocking with Garterbelt (cause it looks like PPG).
It was made by Gainax, and licensed by Crunchyroll and Funimation. Why isn't being animation made by an anime company in Japan, distributed by anime companies outside Japan, and called an anime not enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
I guess the topics covered by anime would make it anime. Too much censorship in the West (on TV).
Are you saying kid-friendly, pass-censors-easily anime doesn't exist?

Last edited by Shyni; 2013-02-19 at 16:40.
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Old 2013-02-19, 16:58   Link #80
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
But why would you do this? If that were to be the case, if anime were not just a shorthand term for Japanese animation, then may I ask, what is your definition of anime? I am curious, also to all of you guys. Also under this same definition Avatar would be considered an anime correct? Since I think you all are saying anime is a style.

I only use the word anime as shorthand for Japanese animation. Though I also call them cartoons sometimes, and when I speak Japanese of course I call anything animated anime no matter where it came from. I personally refrain from implying that anime is a style, and that anime just means animation that came from a Japanese company, that's it. For styles I prefer to get specific, like mukoku seki (sic) or realistic or highly stylized or etc.
Anime as a generalized style. There is one good reason why that cannot be ignored.

Spoiler:


However, no one outside Japan have taken the style so far as to produce animated series. So far, non-Japanese can produce anime-style drawings. The ability to do so is a skill, and it isn't limited to a specific ethnic group. For this reason, I have taken the "Japanese" requirement out of anime in my view and replaced it with a more broad view of "anyone can make anime". People simply need the talent, skills, and work ethic to make it.

In the long run, it is well within the imagination of an anime made in America. Avatar is a great step in that direction. The Thundercats series has an anime studio directly involved in it. I suppose, it is relegated as a "cartoon" just because Warner Bros. led the direction, while Studio 4C acted as a consultant, or something.

I remember sitting in a room with my friends, and they were watching Thundercats on Cartoon Network. Out of my mouth, I did ask: "Hey, what anime is this?" With a quick 2 second look, that's exactly what I thought. I thought that I was looking at an anime when I first looked at it.

Case in point: American anime is inevitable. And I only mention America just because I live in it.
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