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Old 2013-02-19, 14:58   Link #381
Kaijo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
I can't help it. I don't like to debate. This is a chore to me. And yet I'm constantly baited into replying because I can't seem to stop myself when this discussion is brought up in rapid succession.
You may want to shift your thinking, then, because only you control when you post and when you don't. Would you accept responsibility if I said that I had to post everytime you did in order your arguments? Would you agree, then, that my posting is 100% your fault, because you baited me into replying?

We are going to be critical of every character here. It's just what we do, but we do it equally. I'll even harsh on Nanoha, my own favorite character, when it is warranted. So yes, that means we'll harsh on Fate occasionally, too. You'll note Keroko's nuanced opinion above, which kinda mirrors my own (I like Fate, but I admit not as much as some other characters). For us, our opinions aren't simplistic. And if you can't take having your favorite character dissected in a conversation, and having negative things said about her, then you are in the wrong place. If you only ever want to hear praise, there are plenty of Nanoha forums out there that you no doubt know about.

But we're not going to stop laying every character under the knife occasionally. My own comments, which you reposted, are used against Sansker to showcase why his arguments are flawed, because he makes arguments against some characters, but not against others. He brought the argument that a bunch of characters were bad, so I used an argument that Fate was bad.

And your support of Sansker doesn't leave you much wiggle room for intelligent conversation in that regard. The man has claimed Chrono had his linker core drained, that limiters were because of a mage's ability to blow up time and space, and many other things that were blatantly, factually wrong. It's up to you as to whether you want to associate with someone so obviously wrong all the time, but it does reflect on you.
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:00   Link #382
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Technically he just offered Chrono getting drained as an explanation for him doing nothing in A's.
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:02   Link #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
Technically he just offered Chrono getting drained as an explanation for him doing nothing in A's.
I don't recall Chrono getting drained in A's though.
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:03   Link #384
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It was a possible idea for a change to the story. Not a good one, but he's not claiming things happened that didn't.

Or at least not being THAT obvious about it.
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:04   Link #385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
I don't recall Chrono getting drained in A's though.
He definitely did not. He did get kicked though by masked men.
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:05   Link #386
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Even chucking that one, there are plenty of others. He also didn't think there was any inter-unit squabbles or rivalry, either, when that formed one of the major basises for the conflict in StrikerS. And then we have his whole Graham argument, where he seems to think Graham didn't do much because he sits around. And that's just today!
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:06   Link #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
No. Again you miss the point. Is Graham a part of the story and fits in its place? Yes, he is. Now that means he is always need and the story could not work without him? No, and there is when you don't get it. I am saying he is not that important and his role is a little too passive. Again, my complain comes because of its execution and how in the overall scale his parts are not that necessary.
So, you obviously hate Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, James Bond and other movie franchises where the antagonist/big bad didn't really do anything but them being there was needed to advance the plot.

Or how about the Slayers anime?

There's a character named Xellos there, he pops in from time to time, drops tidbits of information, then disappears, but, without him, Hellmaster's plan to lure out Gaav to kill him, and his plan to have Lina use the Giga Slave would not have happened, or later in the novels, without Xellos, Lina and Gourry would not have had their final show-down with Shabranigdo. Slayers Revolution, the most he did was drop some information, be annoying and curb-stomp the main characters effortlessly, but that was to move the plot forward.

You don't NEED to have an over-active manipulator who's up in your face explaining their motivations completely to make them effective.

Look up Xanatos Gambit sometime, Sansker.
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:08   Link #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Even chucking that one, there are plenty of others. He also didn't think there was any inter-unit squabbles or rivalry, either, when that formed one of the major basises for the conflict in StrikerS. And then we have his whole Graham argument, where he seems to think Graham didn't do much because he sits around. And that's just today!
So Hayate did nothing, based on what he said. And she was in her wheelchair. She was "unimportant"
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:12   Link #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
You may want to shift your thinking, then, because only you control when you post and when you don't. Would you accept responsibility if I said that I had to post everytime you did in order your arguments? Would you agree, then, that my posting is 100% your fault, because you baited me into replying?

We are going to be critical of every character here. It's just what we do, but we do it equally. I'll even harsh on Nanoha, my own favorite character, when it is warranted. So yes, that means we'll harsh on Fate occasionally, too. You'll note Keroko's nuanced opinion above, which kinda mirrors my own (I like Fate, but I admit not as much as some other characters). For us, our opinions aren't simplistic. And if you can't take having your favorite character dissected in a conversation, and having negative things said about her, then you are in the wrong place. If you only ever want to hear praise, there are plenty of Nanoha forums out there that you no doubt know about.

But we're not going to stop laying every character under the knife occasionally. My own comments, which you reposted, are used against Sansker to showcase why his arguments are flawed, because he makes arguments against some characters, but not against others. He brought the argument that a bunch of characters were bad, so I used an argument that Fate was bad.

And your support of Sansker doesn't leave you much wiggle room for intelligent conversation in that regard. The man has claimed Chrono had his linker core drained, that limiters were because of a mage's ability to blow up time and space, and many other things that were blatantly, factually wrong. It's up to you as to whether you want to associate with someone so obviously wrong all the time, but it does reflect on you.
Well at least I am not just assuming I am correct Kaijo. You insist on calling me and my arguments wrong because you give your own wicked version of them apply to other subjects. I say the Numbers are bad and then you say Fate is bad, so since Fate is not bad the Numbers are not either. What kind of logic is that? Yes I say arguments against some characters and no others because they are not the same, so I canít look at them with the same ideas in mind. Similar? Yes, but not equally and exactly alike. Because just one character being a poorly explain in all aspects while other in some aspects gives room to say which one could be better. What you call showing my flawed arguments Kaijo is you applying a childís logic to them and using it in examples that are just trying to make me sound annoying instead of looking at the argument itself or character I just mention.
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:12   Link #390
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Well I wanted to be fair, since I did lose my temper at him earlier.

...his own wicked version of things? The hell.
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:13   Link #391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
So, you obviously hate Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, James Bond and other movie franchises where the antagonist/big bad didn't really do anything but them being there was needed to advance the plot.

Or how about the Slayers anime?

There's a character named Xellos there, he pops in from time to time, drops tidbits of information, then disappears, but, without him, Hellmaster's plan to lure out Gaav to kill him, and his plan to have Lina use the Giga Slave would not have happened, or later in the novels, without Xellos, Lina and Gourry would not have had their final show-down with Shabranigdo. Slayers Revolution, the most he did was drop some information, be annoying and curb-stomp the main characters effortlessly, but that was to move the plot forward.

You don't NEED to have an over-active manipulator who's up in your face explaining their motivations completely to make them effective.

Look up Xanatos Gambit sometime, Sansker.
No, but why should I care about any of those things when I am talking about Nanoha?
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:25   Link #392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
No, but why should I care about any of those things when I am talking about Nanoha?
Because...

Those things I was talking about...

Are basically what Graham does in A's.

SHEESH!
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:26   Link #393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Because...

Those things I was talking about...

Are basically what Graham does in A's.

SHEESH!
As said: "DOOMEDDDDDDDD"
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:31   Link #394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Because...

Those things I was talking about...

Are basically what Graham does in A's.

SHEESH!
And yes, he does things but you are missing how I am saying he is not essential to the overall plot. This is the details in execution and really can be change without losing much. Should be change? Not really but that is not the point.
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:32   Link #395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
No. Again you miss the point. Is Graham a part of the story and fits in its place? Yes, he is. Now that means he is always need and the story could not work without him? No, and there is when you don't get it. I am saying he is not that important and his role is a little too passive. Again, my complain comes because of its execution and how in the overall scale his parts are not that necessary.
Here's how you find out how essential a character is: Remove him. Change nothing. Now see if the series is still functioning with minimal plotholes.

This cannot be done for Graham, as there won't just be one or two minor plotholes, the entire plot would collapse. Therefore, he is an essential character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
And yes, Force canít use Nanoha but only because how bad things have been going on with the old cast. Still using Nanohaís name on the title I had the wrong idea this might will have her playing a protagonist role. My bad.
Oh, she's still a protagonist. Just not the main character.

But then, she has never been "the" main character. Except maybe barring the second half of StrikerS.

S1's main character was Fate.

A's main character was Hayate.

StrikerS main character was... Subaru, mostly. Though in the second half Nanoha claimed a critical role, whereas Subaru's role decreased to a more secondary one.
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:41   Link #396
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No, and I insist there. Graham makes things work yes, but I do not see him as that essential and I think we better leave like this because this is getting us nowhere.

Also no, main character was Nanoha in the first season, A’s really lacks one to be fair Hayate like I said is more of a plot device and her role too secondary to be the main character and StrikerS also lacks a main character. Nanoha has being a side character in StrikerS, ViVid and Force really.
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:42   Link #397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
No, and I insist there. Graham makes things work yes, but I do not see him as that essential.
No, you see, this is your problem, Sansker...

You're taking your opinion and dressing it up as fact.

You don't get to do that and then go "woah, okay, my opinion is true and all your facts are wrong, let's just leave it at that." when people call you out on it.
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:46   Link #398
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No, I say "I don't see him" which means I still hold my opinion to myself and you have not change my mind. Fact remains: Graham is still a part of the plot in A's, how much he is need in that? Open to our own conclusions.
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:49   Link #399
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Except that is one of the things you can objectively judge.

Take away Graham, and the entire A's plot falls apart. No Graham means no twins. No twins means no opponents to keep stopping Nanoha and Fate when they're about to stop things.

The only way to fix this? Rewrite it. But at that stage you've admitted he's a critical character.
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:53   Link #400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
No, I say "I don't see him" which means I still hold my opinion to myself
"I don't see him" is...

Your...

OPINION!

Keroko, myself, Justin and OTHERS have pointed out that Graham is needed for the plot.

You said "I do not see him as that essential"

THEREFORE!

You are USING YOUR OPINION and dressing it up as fact when, it is, in fact, YOUR OPINION!
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