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Old 2013-02-19, 17:57   Link #421
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
Added now is that the movie doesn't have Graham in it and it looks like that would be a big plothole (aka: how does a disabled person take care of herself... and a 9 year old at that)
Wow what? That's some pretty nasty understimation of disabled people xDU I'm pretty sure there's lots of disabled guys out there several times more capable than us in pretty much anything xD
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Old 2013-02-19, 17:58   Link #422
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Wow what? That's some pretty nasty understimation of disabled people xDU I'm pretty sure there's lots of disabled guys out there several times more capable than us in pretty much anything xD
LOL I bet they are overaged.
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Old 2013-02-19, 18:03   Link #423
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LOL I bet they are overaged.
You mean not 9 year old orphan girls who were slowly dying, right?
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Old 2013-02-19, 18:12   Link #424
Akiyoshi
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You mean not 9 year old orphan girls who were slowly dying, right?
The slowly dying thing should be taken more time has the Wolkenritter weren't awakened. Seems it was mainly the consequence of the Book of Darkness abandoning it's passive mode o_o
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Old 2013-02-19, 18:14   Link #425
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Oh, I'm sorry, I though we were talking about Graham's relevance to the plot.

But then, even if I look beyond Graham... nope, still essential to the plot.



.... Yes? And? What does attachment have to do with relevance to the plot?



.... Except the overall plot doesn't work if you just remove Graham.

Again, short list. No Graham means:

No Hayate living alone.
No Book of Darkness responding to Hayate's loneliness.
No Hayate wishing to just live with the Wolkenritter.
No Lieze twins.
No stopping Chrono from arresting Shamal with the book.
No stopping Nanoha from blasting Vita into submission.
No stopping the Fate/Signum fight.
No stopping Nanoha and Fate talking sense into the Wolkenritter on the hospital roof.
No completion of the Book of Darkness by absorbing the knights.
No tricking Hayate into thinking she was betrayed by her friends.
No Hayate triggering the Book's activation in despair.
No Durandal to seal the book's movement to allow the transfer.

The only way to fix these plotholes is to rewrite them. But if you are forced to rewrite scenes, that just shows how essential the scenes, and thus the character that steered them, are.

Nothing subjective about it.
You still donít see why he is just a role. In the end it doesnít matter how Hayate lives alone. All she really needs is money, and that can be easily solved. The rest we will need to see how it goes. You are not even open to the possibility that this might happen and actually it happen already, the movie Aís remove this crucial character, so why canít we just wait and see of this makes sense? I mean is not just me talking about what the character looks like to me but also what it looks to the author who take him out without problems. If he was so needed then he should still be there, right?

I am always saying the character fits the plot but that is not one of its crucial parts. Like Amy or Randy or any of the TSAB staff. They just fit a role. Amyís role is just to monitor Nanoha and Fate and handle the consol. I think any other character could fit that post and we lost little there. Graham is the same, and in no way this means he doesnít belong there, just that he is not the key part.

Besides Hayate will be alone even without Graham. I donít think he kill her family and then plot to make her get the Book. So Graham is needed for Hayate to feel lonely after losing her parents? She could be with a new family and still feel loneliness and emptiness and get the book. Again we are not going to get anywhere, can we just move on?
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Old 2013-02-19, 18:17   Link #426
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You still don’t see why he is just a role.
Except every character is "just a role". Every character serves a role. But according to you, we don't need roles. Which I guess means we don't need characters.

Except if we don't need characters, then we don't have a goddamn story, now do we?
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Old 2013-02-19, 18:27   Link #427
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My point is that Graham is just the trigger to all those events. Nothing about his personality or character make him pivotal to fill such role and those elements (yes, ALL of them) could be justified in a myriad of ways.
The argument was never about whether Graham is a well-developed character (because he is indeed lacking in that aspect), the argument is about how essential Graham is to the plot.

And the "you can replace Graham with another general with similar motivations." argument escapes me.

Yes, you can replace Graham with another general.

I can also replace Nanoha with Suzuka.

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You still donít see why he is just a role.
What do you mean by "just a role" anyway? I've seen you toss around that line as if it means something special.

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In the end it doesnít matter how Hayate lives alone.
Really? Because until the sound stage translations rolled in, that was one of the biggest questions around here.

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The rest we will need to see how it goes. You are not even open to the possibility that this might happen and actually it happen already, the movie Aís remove this crucial character, so why canít we just wait and see of this makes sense? I mean is not just me talking about what the character looks like to me but also what it looks to the author who take him out without problems. If he was so needed then he should still be there, right?
Indeed. And I am dreading the plotholes. The early reviews are... not encouraging. But they do confirm my earlier statement: The events were rewritten. They now happen differently. This means the events could not simply be taken out, but had to actively be changed in order for the movie to make sense.
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Old 2013-02-19, 18:33   Link #428
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Indeed. And I am dreading the plotholes. The early reviews are... not encouraging. But they do confirm my earlier statement: The events were rewritten. They now happen differently. This means the events could not simply be taken out, but had to actively be changed in order for the movie to make sense.
The only one I know who can take care of her would be Dr. Ishida.... Or Signum, Shamal, Vita and Zafira... but how they work without their papers being checked is....
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Old 2013-02-19, 18:34   Link #429
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Well the movie does change events not related to Graham like Fate arriving at Earth early so that alone is a major chance not related to Graham and his plots. So really the changes come also from different story telling all together. And I know what you mean: how Hayate can live alone in that house? Well it just needs to be stay in one line really: “Her parents die and a distant relative sends her money”.

When I say a role I mean he is just there to fit those plot holes you bring if he were not there Keroko. He is just feeling the gasp as the force behind the masked twins. And since he is not a well develop character is easy just to think the story without him. But Nanoha is not the same. In the end Nanoha, no matter what one can think of her, does shows her personality to the audience and steps in to act and be in camera all along. Her nature and images come to mind when thinking of the story and is really not that easy to talk about replacing her as it is with less memorable and a little more passive characters as Graham was made.
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Old 2013-02-19, 18:37   Link #430
Akiyoshi
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I can also replace Nanoha with Suzuka.
I get your point but i reeaaaally doubt Suzuka, being how she is could fill Nanoha's spot just as well xDU Mhh... i could replace Nanoha with Sakura Kinomoto instead xD
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Old 2013-02-19, 18:41   Link #431
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Then it will not be Nanoha without her friendship destruction beam.
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Old 2013-02-19, 18:58   Link #432
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Well the movie does change events not related to Graham like Fate arriving at Earth early so that alone is a major chance not related to Graham and his plots. So really the changes come also from different story telling all together. And I know what you mean: how Hayate can live alone in that house? Well it just needs to be stay in one line really: ďHer parents die and a distant relative sends her moneyĒ.

When I say a role I mean he is just there to fit those plot holes you bring if he were not there Keroko. He is just feeling the gasp as the force behind the masked twins. And since he is not a well develop character is easy just to think the story without him. But Nanoha is not the same. In the end Nanoha, no matter what one can think of her, does shows her personality to the audience and steps in to act and be in camera all along. Her nature and images come to mind when thinking of the story and is really not that easy to talk about replacing her as it is with less memorable and a little more passive characters as Graham was made.

A friend of mine is kinda had it with you.

if you're gonna flame MGLN, go to a forum that does that. or go to 4chan and flame MGLN there...(and waits for someone to blast you with their own flame-throwers).

we got haters here but they enjoyed the show.

And I think You haven't tried understanding the whole thing and tried to find some materials except watching it as a way to waste time.
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Old 2013-02-19, 19:20   Link #433
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When I say a role I mean he is just there to fit those plot holes you bring if he were not there Keroko. He is just feeling the gasp as the force behind the masked twins. And since he is not a well develop character is easy just to think the story without him.
Given his relationship with said masked twins? Not quite. You see, what little of his character that was developed ties him with the twins rather intricately.

A familiar is kind of a life-and-death bargain.

But yes, his "role" was to be the driving force behind all the events that occurred. That much is true. And in that role, he is essential. Without him filling that role, the story has to be rewritten.

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I get your point but i reeaaaally doubt Suzuka, being how she is could fill Nanoha's spot just as well xDU Mhh... i could replace Nanoha with Sakura Kinomoto instead xD
Oh trust me, I can. She'll send dodgeball spikes around the globe knocking out Fate and jewel seeds alike, but I can.
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Old 2013-02-19, 19:24   Link #434
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Oh trust me, I can. She'll send dodgeball spikes around the globe knocking out Fate and jewel seeds alike, but I can.
...

I am throwing my money at you, but it keeps bouncing off the screen.

Please, write this!
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Old 2013-02-19, 19:25   Link #435
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Imagine the shitstorm that would happen when Fate tries to attack Eins in front of Suzuka.
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Old 2013-02-19, 19:26   Link #436
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Oh trust me, I can. She'll send dodgeball spikes around the globe knocking out Fate and jewel seeds alike, but I can.
I'm sending mah munni but the thing is... they're all deposited in a bank and I haven't activated my online banking privilage....
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Old 2013-02-19, 19:42   Link #437
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Keep in mind that if Hayate didn't have the support of Graham, she would have been out on her ass in the street (no money). Probably picked up and stuffed in a Japanese orphanage. Maybe adopted. But she's separated from the book, then.

Even if she somehow kept the book, without money, she gets no health care, meaning no Dr. Ishida. Which means no one is looking and finding out about how the disease is moving up her body. Which means the Wolkies, when they activate, aren't driven to start trying to complete the book.

In other words, without Graham, A's never happens.
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Old 2013-02-19, 20:17   Link #438
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The nature of fiction makes the majority of non major protagnist roles are interchangeable. An individual is but one person. If I didn't exist, there would be someone else to fill the gap in this thread. But...

It wouldn't be the same. You can excise Gil, and have a similar story, but the story is fundamentally different. The issue is how much can you change before you have a completely different story, and a lot of people think it would be. It might be of equal quality, but the motives and themes are going to change, particularly around Chrono's involvement in this story.

It is fine to say that Gil's character had issues and was definitely the least fleshed out story of A's with rather questionable closure. I hope the intent to remove him is of a meta one, of which the TSAB would not want people to know about his involvement, but that would assume the movies were having this clever gimmick in mind. I just don't know if they're clever enough for that.

To summarize, Gil is vital for having A's as we currently know it.
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Old 2013-02-19, 20:33   Link #439
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Hey guys, what...

... This is STILL going on? The fuck?
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Old 2013-02-19, 20:34   Link #440
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Hey guys, what...

... This is STILL going on? The fuck?
We're masochistic that way, clearly.
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