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View Poll Results: Psycho-Pass - Episode 17 Rating
Perfect 10 44 51.16%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 22 25.58%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 11 12.79%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 6.98%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 1.16%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 1.16%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.16%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-02-20, 15:51   Link #241
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I still fail to see Sybil as anything special once the curtains are pulled away. They are just politicians making decisions. Except no one knows that it is humans and not a computer that's making the call. The Sybil system could have been flesh humans sitting around a round table and it wouldn't have made a difference to the results.
My feelings are more directed towards how these constituent members are selected. You're quite right in that it doesn't function all that differently from a bunch of politicians discussing an issue, but in this case, they only take in the best minds, only the ones that further broaden the entire system's perspective. I wouldn't be surprised if they had some of the best minds with regards to a wide range of fields, be it philosophy, science, psychology, art, or mathematics. If that wasn't enough, Sybil seeks to fill in the gaps by taking in anyone who can contribute a new way of thinking into the system. It's pretty much a working and thriving aristocracy, looking at the whole thing closely.
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Old 2013-02-20, 16:15   Link #242
Dengar
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
If you read it again more carefully, you'll see it is talking about psychopathy.
You are absolutely right. Walls of text become rather blurry to me. My apologies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I still fail to see Sybil as anything special once the curtains are pulled away. They are just politicians making decisions. Except no one knows that it is humans and not a computer that's making the call. The Sybil system could have been flesh humans sitting around a round table and it wouldn't have made a difference to the results.
Politicians don't usually deceive people.

....

That came out wrong.

....

Politicians are usually not that corrupt.

....

That came out wrong as well.

....

Well they're not like politicians in any way!
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Old 2013-02-20, 17:38   Link #243
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The system can't improve itself indefinitely, because the assumption is that the brains involved wouldn't make a mistake. Due to a complete lack of oversight, the system is prone to catastrophic failure once mistakes are introduced into the decision making. Because it polices itself; in the end even as brains, they are just 250 people who do what they like and no one outside can object.

I still fail to see Sybil as anything special once the curtains are pulled away. They are just politicians making decisions. Except no one knows that it is humans and not a computer that's making the call. The Sybil system could have been flesh humans sitting around a round table and it wouldn't have made a difference to the results.
Politicians at least fight to get in power. They use whole teams of people to determine what lies to tell and how, what deals with the devil to make, whose boots to lick. Those brains? They were just chosen because some moron had a hard-on for crazed killers.


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Originally Posted by cyth View Post
Yuki's had a meager chance to be free, so she's human in the sense that she had that capacity, but she turned into cattle just like everyone else. What good is your inherent nature if you throw it away?
See, that's what gets me. She carved a life for herself which, yes, was extremely easy because that Sibyl's point, and for that you deny her humanity?

It's like some guy got tortured to death by a nutso (which happens IRL), and you go "it's too bad, but, you know, he was just a sheeple. I mean, he had potential like everyone, but he decided to follow the rails laid for him when he took over the family business, abided by the law, and paid his taxes. Not only that, but he never fought in his life, so of course he wasn't able to overpower his better armed and better trained attacker. So, really, nothing of value was lost".

Quote:
Really, people under Sybil have my sympathy, but there was a clear roadmap how they got to that point, and I can't help but feel that they do carry some measure of responsibility (at least Masaoka's generation) for setting up and accepting the Sybil system.
Oh, yes. But we weren't talking about the unfair way "latent criminals" are treated. We were talking about an innocent young woman who got killed by a nutjob.

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We live in a relatively wealthy society, we have food in our refrigirators and cozy warm homes. Society has developed services to serve our every whim, computer algorithms organize our lives. So I don't get why you're talking about savagery. Instead of 'animality', perhaps a better word for this discussion would be 'domestication'.
Oh, so that's what you meant? Then we're back to my assertion that we're different from medieval peasants. And, for that matter, even more different from stone-age hunter gatherers. Does that make us less human than they were?

Quote:
And conservatives are mocking you because you think the way you think. It's a difference in ideology, that's as far as I'll go here. If you skim through history, capital punishment was prevalent through most of it. I don't agree with it because I don't like brutality and in the majority of cases such a punishment is excessive, but if you were to judge men of history by your early 21st century, liberal worldview, I'd say you were fooling yourself to think yours is the popular opinion here.
And yet, taking away an enemy's face, denying his humanity, whether for war or criminal executions, is an old, old trick.

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If you continue to debate me in this fashion, I'm just not going to respond. You are steps away from me slapping the troll label on you.
If you feel I'm misrepresenting your opinions, feel free to explain them better.
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Old 2013-02-20, 18:12   Link #244
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
It could go either way. It could be biological or societal. Though, you make it sound like the idea of a normal person lacking empathy for a another person is such an alien concept. Well, you might not be entirely wrong, but let's not overreach ourselves beyond what the show gives us.
It's very easy for someone to *selectively* not have empathy for certain groups of people. It's very hard for a normal person to lack in empathy to the extent that Makishima does, since so far it seems like his lack of empathy seems to extend to nearly the entire human race. The most we've seen from him on that matter is him having some measure of a reaction from Choe and suggesting that the hunter guy should retreat after Kougami got the dominator. Whatever he felt about those two being killed, it wasn't exactly the emotional response of seeing a friend die.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
My feelings are more directed towards how these constituent members are selected.
See, that's the thing most other people have problems with. The selection process doesn't just pick sociopaths with lack of empathy...it selects for sociopaths who lack empathy who are actively engaging in criminal activity.
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Old 2013-02-20, 18:27   Link #245
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
It's very easy for someone to *selectively* not have empathy for certain groups of people. It's very hard for a normal person to lack in empathy to the extent that Makishima does, since so far it seems like his lack of empathy seems to extend to nearly the entire human race. The most we've seen from him on that matter is him having some measure of a reaction from Choe and suggesting that the hunter guy should retreat after Kougami got the dominator. Whatever he felt about those two being killed, it wasn't exactly the emotional response of seeing a friend die.
Like I mentioned, I see empathy as a function of perceived similarity. You can only empathize with something if you can identify with it as "one of your own". As we already know, Makishima sees normal people as no more than sheep, and that mode of thinking seems to me a result an esoteric ideal that he holds very dearly. So regardless of any biological factors, I believe that a large part of his lack of empathy is cognitively based.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
See, that's the thing most other people have problems with. The selection process doesn't just pick sociopaths with lack of empathy...it selects for sociopaths who lack empathy who are actively engaging in criminal activity.
But see, I'm just not convinced that this is truly the case. Nowhere has it been stated explicitly that this was the case. So far, we've had Makishima and Touma, but is such an incidental relation really representative of the members of the collective? Perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree on this, but I really am not seeing it.
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Last edited by Qilin; 2013-02-20 at 19:05.
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Old 2013-02-20, 19:44   Link #246
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
My feelings are more directed towards how these constituent members are selected. You're quite right in that it doesn't function all that differently from a bunch of politicians discussing an issue, but in this case, they only take in the best minds, only the ones that further broaden the entire system's perspective. I wouldn't be surprised if they had some of the best minds with regards to a wide range of fields, be it philosophy, science, psychology, art, or mathematics. If that wasn't enough, Sybil seeks to fill in the gaps by taking in anyone who can contribute a new way of thinking into the system. It's pretty much a working and thriving aristocracy, looking at the whole thing closely.
You are speaking like Sybil is a robot again.

Sybil is HUMAN. The committee decide what they think is the best minds. But that has nothing to do with whether it is any good. Politicians appoint ministers who are suppose to be the best and brightest, but it's hit or miss. There is no reason to believe Sybil is any better at picking new members than any other government. The people who make choices are still human.

Sybil does NOT make perfect decisions. That's just propaganda.
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Old 2013-02-20, 19:44   Link #247
zeando
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
See, that's the thing most other people have problems with. The selection process doesn't just pick sociopaths with lack of empathy...it selects for sociopaths who lack empathy who are actively engaging in criminal activity.
are you keeping in mind in the sibyl world playing/liking the wrong music is a criminal activity too?


regarding how the sibyl actually works, during the touma talk it was mentioned that at least 200 of the 247 brains have to be "in session" to keep the system running, has anyone expanded yet on what "in session" may mean?
that brings other questions, like:

how much are the brains conscious while being in session? how much of their brain is busy with machinelike calculations? are they using more of the famous 10% of brain potential?
given they're only 200 and they've to analize datas about likely some millions of people (according to the nation's population), it seems unlikely for them to treat it like a common paperwork (using the comparison in case they weren't brains but people with bodies), using the brains as calculation resources was highlighted as one of the reasons allowing a system like that to exist, which with computers alone wouldn't be able to manage the size of data to analyze

what do the brains not "in session" do in the while?
sleep? talk between each other? one we know has to take care to impersonate the chief, but the others?(46 left) do they have spare chief bodies, or just faceless bodies to get in to have a walk? or bodies shaped like common citizens to have a trip in the city? (doubt it, probably they just stay in their flask, as simple as they make it sound moving brains in and out of bodies shouldn't be an easy thing)

and other minor questions not really important
how much does a session last? how often do they switch with someone not in service?

currently i'm imagining the system working somehow like this:

where the brains have 2 roles: (only in the calculation of the psycho-pass)
-being sample/reference material to use during the psycho-pass calculation
-being calculation resources to do the actual calculations
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Old 2013-02-20, 19:49   Link #248
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Sybil does NOT make perfect decisions. That's just propaganda.
I don't deny that. I don't think I said anything like that in any case.
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Old 2013-02-20, 19:53   Link #249
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
I don't deny that. I don't think I said anything like that in any case.
You say they recruit the best minds. That's wishful thinking. Every government everywhere tries to recruit the best minds. There is a difference between wanting the best minds and actually getting them.
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Old 2013-02-20, 20:01   Link #250
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
You say they recruit the best minds. That's wishful thinking. Every government everywhere tries to recruit the best minds. There is a difference between wanting the best minds and actually getting them.
Well, perhaps I should have said "what they perceived to be the best minds"? Or rather, "those minds that they are unable to judge nor comprehend"?

Obviously, I'm not saying that their selection procedure is perfect, but it's not entirely farfetched to narrow down the experts in nearly every given field and create a committee out of them, especially in a setting where mind reading is possible. What I find amusing about about Sybil isn't necessarily it's accuracy or perfection, but rather the sheer scope of its perspective. That goes even more if long-winded discussions and arguments that usually take hours to resolve, can be done in the span of mere moments.
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Old 2013-02-20, 20:33   Link #251
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
Well, perhaps I should have said "what they perceived to be the best minds"? Or rather, "those minds that they are unable to judge nor comprehend"?

Obviously, I'm not saying that their selection procedure is perfect, but it's not entirely farfetched to narrow down the experts in nearly every given field and create a committee out of them, especially in a setting where mind reading is possible. What I find amusing about about Sybil isn't necessarily it's accuracy or perfection, but rather the sheer scope of its perspective. That goes even more if long-winded discussions and arguments that usually take hours to resolve, can be done in the span of mere moments.
A bunch of arguing Bureaucrats sped up are still only a bunch of arguing bureaucrats. In the end it still only boiled down to a private invitation-only club of 250 people. It doesn't matter how it tries to sell itself as being good at what it does, the fact that it is just a cybernetic version of your old Knights of the Round Table means it is downright ordinary.
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Old 2013-02-20, 20:37   Link #252
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
A bunch of arguing Bureaucrats sped up are still only a bunch of arguing bureaucrats. In the end it still only boiled down to a private invitation-only club of 250 people. It doesn't matter how it tries to sell itself as being good at what it does, the fact that it is just a cybernetic version of your old Knights of the Round Table means it is downright ordinary.
The appeal for me is that the group is composed of experts from a wide diversity of backgrounds and disciplines, not to mention some visionaries with a brand new ways of looking at things. Well, if that still doesn't strike you as any good, then I won't force you.
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Old 2013-02-20, 20:43   Link #253
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
The appeal for me is that the group is composed of experts from a wide diversity of backgrounds and disciplines, not to mention some visionaries with a brand new ways of looking at things. Well, if that still doesn't strike you as any good, then I won't force you.
You are describing an ordinary government. What, you don't think a nation's leaders hire experts?

Seriously though, what do you think the governments in real life do all day? You think they don't hire experts from a diverse background? And had wannabe visionaries?

The people in Sybil are PEOPLE. They are not superhuman. There is no reason to claim the people selected by Sybil are superior to what would normally be hired in government positions. Because the selectors are human, it means it is no different from real life job interviews and vetting processes.

Quite aside from the fact that they hire literal psychos, there is no evidence it is even that efficient. The only thing they had to speed things up is absolute power, which any run of the mill despot had too.
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Old 2013-02-20, 20:48   Link #254
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The people in Sybil are PEOPLE. They are not superhuman. There is no reason to claim the people selected by Sybil are superior to what would normally be hired in government positions. Because the selectors are human, it means it is no different from real life job interviews and vetting processes.
It's not all that different except that the evaluators can read minds, which might be more reliable than any interview... though could be wrong there. Also, to note, such experts usually aren't given much decision making powers. Those are usually just left to bureaucrats.
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Old 2013-02-20, 20:57   Link #255
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
It's not all that different except that the evaluators can read minds, which might be more reliable than any interview... though could be wrong there. Also, to note, such experts usually aren't given much decision making powers. Those are usually just left to bureaucrats.
The mind reading is a physical tool. It does not require the Sybil system to use. So it does NOT show Sybil as having any advantage over ordinary human government departments.

And Experts who make decisions become Bureaucrats.

My point stands. I don't understand your faith in the Sybil system when it is nothing new. If anything it is like the Wizard of Oz, an old man hiding behind a curtain while the gizmos and contraptions hides what is really going on.

Instead of the old cyberpunk of finding out the leader is a computer, we have the computer ended up being humans in disguise.
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Old 2013-02-20, 21:06   Link #256
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
Like I mentioned, I see empathy as a function of perceived similarity. You can only empathize with something if you can identify with it as "one of your own". As we already know, Makishima sees normal people as no more than sheep, and that mode of thinking seems to me a result an esoteric ideal that he holds very dearly. So regardless of any biological factors, I believe that a large part of his lack of empathy is cognitively based.
Except Makishima doesn't really emphasize with other latent criminals like himself, or even people he finds interesting in general.


Really Qilin. I think you're rather dramatically overstating the intellectual importance in somebody not having empathy.
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Originally Posted by zeando View Post
are you keeping in mind in the sibyl world playing/liking the wrong music is a criminal activity too?
I'm very much aware. But here's the thing. It's been heavily implied that the SYbil system needs to recruit criminally Asymptomatic persons, right? And Criminally Asymptomatic persons with criminal thoughts are almost impossible to detect because well...the system reads them as being neurologically normal.

You won't catch Asymptomatic latent criminals for their taste of music. They'll just get scanned as healthy and ignored. An Asymptomatic individual basically needs to do something to REALLY rock the boat in order for his status as an Asymptomatic criminal to get noticed.
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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
The appeal for me is that the group is composed of experts from a wide diversity of backgrounds and disciplines, not to mention some visionaries with a brand new ways of looking at things. Well, if that still doesn't strike you as any good, then I won't force you.
Qilin, they stick people into the machine hive mind based on whether or not they're a particular brand of psychopathic mass murderer. They're not recruiting people based on them being experts in any particular fields.



Really. How much more blatant did that scene with Touma and Makishima have to be convey the idea that "Sybil system is run by serial killers"? Where Touma, the representative of the collective, is made to come off as creepy and psycho as hell what with her crazy eyes?

Did touma need to start talking like this?
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Old 2013-02-20, 21:19   Link #257
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
A bunch of arguing Bureaucrats sped up are still only a bunch of arguing bureaucrats. In the end it still only boiled down to a private invitation-only club of 250 people. It doesn't matter how it tries to sell itself as being good at what it does, the fact that it is just a cybernetic version of your old Knights of the Round Table means it is downright ordinary.
Except it isn't like this. The Sibyl System isn't an ordinary political body.

Remember how Makishima brought up Gulliver's Travels and Balnibarbi's doctor? The doctor came up with a way for politicians with conflicting opinions to reconcile with one another, which is to cut people's brains in half and stick them together. "Once that is done successfully they could 'produce that moderation as well as regularity of thinking.'"

Though there is a bit of mocking derision in what Makishima is getting at (It's not an attractive fate for the people involved), the point is that this is like a collective conscience of individuals. All their expertise, knowledge, and wisdom is melded together to create a single entity which possesses greater thought capacity than any lone individual. Every additional person who is added into the system only makes Sibyl more perfect, moreso if that given person is unique enough such that Sibyl cannot already think like that individual.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Really. How much more blatant did that scene with Touma and Makishima have to be convey the idea that "Sybil system is run by serial killers"? Where Touma, the representative of the collective, is made to come off as creepy and psycho as hell what with her crazy eyes?
Excuse us then for interpreting the scene differently than you.
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Old 2013-02-20, 21:21   Link #258
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post

Politicians don't usually deceive people.

....

That came out wrong.

....

Politicians are usually not that corrupt.

....

That came out wrong as well.

....

Well they're not like politicians in any way!
But politicians are not like politicians either, that's what they say!
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Old 2013-02-21, 05:54   Link #259
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The mind reading is a physical tool. It does not require the Sybil system to use. So it does NOT show Sybil as having any advantage over ordinary human government departments.

And Experts who make decisions become Bureaucrats.

My point stands. I don't understand your faith in the Sybil system when it is nothing new. If anything it is like the Wizard of Oz, an old man hiding behind a curtain while the gizmos and contraptions hides what is really going on.

Instead of the old cyberpunk of finding out the leader is a computer, we have the computer ended up being humans in disguise.
Eh. I have just about much faith in it as your run-the-mill dictatorship, maybe a bit more. Which is to say, not much, but still applicable in specific circumstances.

Just to note, I was simply indicating how the selection process of Sybil was more efficient than that of an ordinary government. As for Sybil itself, it's pretty much an aristocracy, only with faster decision-making capabilities. The idea of aristocracy dates back to the time of the Greeks, so it's definitely nothing new, nor did I imply such. All I'm saying is that particular governments are better for different contexts. There is no absolute "best" method of governance out there.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Except Makishima doesn't really emphasize with other latent criminals like himself, or even people he finds interesting in general.


Really Qilin. I think you're rather dramatically overstating the intellectual importance in somebody not having empathy.
So just because they're all criminals they all think the similarly? Is that what you're saying? Just because you find mental patients to be interesting, you can already understand their perspectives?

All I said was that lack of empathy can either be a result of biological or cognitive factors, though there's no way of telling which it is for Makishima just yet.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Qilin, they stick people into the machine hive mind based on whether or not they're a particular brand of psychopathic mass murderer. They're not recruiting people based on them being experts in any particular fields.

Really. How much more blatant did that scene with Touma and Makishima have to be convey the idea that "Sybil system is run by serial killers"? Where Touma, the representative of the collective, is made to come off as creepy and psycho as hell what with her crazy eyes?

Did touma need to start talking like this?
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Right. Like I said, I haven't seen or read anything that indicates such. If that's what you think, then fine. But if you want to convince anyone else, you'll have to do a little more than be all condescending.
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Old 2013-02-21, 06:01   Link #260
Dengar
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I don't think either of you is completely right tbh.

I don't think they're looking for mass murderers specifically. They're looking for people who think differently than regular people do.
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