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Old 2013-02-20, 18:24   Link #101
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
I don't know what the immigration process is like in Australia, so I can't remark on it. However, I will say that in America it isn't always as simple as paying the government. There are a number of very interesting terms that can be thrown in depending on the visa type.
it is close.

the US does have a program where if someone invest at min a million dollars or created 5 jobs they can gain permanent residency for them and their family.
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Old 2013-02-20, 18:46   Link #102
kyp275
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
it is close.
It is until you become one of the ones unfortunate enough to run into problems, and realizes how fk'd up the system can be and how easily it can be abused.

Nobody in my family had any issues except for my dad, who during the citizenship interview it was discovered that there was a clerical error on his original permanent residency application. You'd think that it'd be easy enough to correct it and move on, but the INS officer decided to seize on that for some reason and almost completely derailed everything. She put my dad's case back in for another "background" check, except she didn't actually put in the request for the check, intentionally putting my dad's case in an administrative abyss where the INS said they're waiting on the FBI check, and FBI says they've never received the request.

Years went by with efforts by lawyers, and even letters from a US senator all in vain, my dad was contemplating having to start all over - giving up and re-apply for permanent residency and then citizenship again, when that ***** at the INS apparently moved or quit or whatever, and a new case officer took over my dad's case. My dad swore in as a citizen a few months after that.

Moral of the story is, excuse me if I don't display too much sympathy towards illegals who think citizenship should be handed out to them automatically, back taxes or not, especially when the process for the legal immigrants are still fk'd up.
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Old 2013-02-20, 18:52   Link #103
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Here's a sample of the GOP view at a state level:

Quote:
Lawmakers Seek to Eliminate Illinois Sales Tax on Fuel for Yachts

On February 13, Davidsmeyer, who was recently appointed to the job to replace ex-State Rep. Jim Watson (R-Jacksonville) proposed legislation, House Bill 1559, that would eliminate the Illinois sales tax on motor fuel for “pleasure craft” sailing on the Mississippi, Ohio, and Wabash Rivers.

Yatcht owners from the St. Louis Yacht Club or Lindsay Yacht Club located in the Quad Cities will undoubtedly welcome the opportunity to sail their boats to Illinois and fill their tanks on tax-free Illinois fuel.
http://www.illinoisobserver.net/2013...el-for-yachts/

If y'own a yacht, y'can afford the sales tax on the fuel. Deal with it. Stuff like this makes it very clear as to who the GOP represents. The part of representation in favor of the religious -- that's just a smoke screen, in order to get away with these kinds of things.

Many know that. But many do not.
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Old 2013-02-20, 19:20   Link #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Moral of the story is, excuse me if I don't display too much sympathy towards illegals who think citizenship should be handed out to them automatically, back taxes or not, especially when the process for the legal immigrants are still fk'd up.
Ironically, it is stories like yours that give me great sympathy for illegals. Because if trying to do it legally gives you so many headaches, can take decades, with no guarantee, then I don't blame people for coming here illegally.

Besides, since illegals pay into the system without getting anything out of it, they actually help. Unless they are being paid under the table, they have money withheld like we do. Except they never file taxes to get their withheld money back, because they are afraid of being caught.

America was built on immigration, and it amuses me to see O'Reilly (an Irishman) whine about immigrants, when once upon a time, people whined about lazy good-for-nothing Irish immigrants. Unless one are a Native American, one has no right to complain about people coming here illegally.
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Old 2013-02-20, 19:23   Link #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
America was built on immigration, and it amuses me to see O'Reilly (an Irishman) whine about immigrants, when once upon a time, people whined about lazy good-for-nothing Irish immigrants. Unless one are a Native American, one has no right to complain about people coming here illegally.
Eh, those "Natives" should go back home to Siberia!
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Old 2013-02-20, 19:32   Link #106
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
It is until you become one of the ones unfortunate enough to run into problems, and realizes how fk'd up the system can be and how easily it can be abused.

Nobody in my family had any issues except for my dad, who during the citizenship interview it was discovered that there was a clerical error on his original permanent residency application. You'd think that it'd be easy enough to correct it and move on, but the INS officer decided to seize on that for some reason and almost completely derailed everything. She put my dad's case back in for another "background" check, except she didn't actually put in the request for the check, intentionally putting my dad's case in an administrative abyss where the INS said they're waiting on the FBI check, and FBI says they've never received the request.

Years went by with efforts by lawyers, and even letters from a US senator all in vain, my dad was contemplating having to start all over - giving up and re-apply for permanent residency and then citizenship again, when that ***** at the INS apparently moved or quit or whatever, and a new case officer took over my dad's case. My dad swore in as a citizen a few months after that.

Moral of the story is, excuse me if I don't display too much sympathy towards illegals who think citizenship should be handed out to them automatically, back taxes or not, especially when the process for the legal immigrants are still fk'd up.
So essentially because your family was badly treated by people when you attempted to obtain citizenship, you believe everyone else should be...

I don't get it. Are you saying it is RIGHT that INS officer screwed your dad over? Because you are actually justifying what you went through as NORMAL. Why are you angry at people too poor to use the normal channels when it is the INS that screwed you? Who are you mad at?
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Old 2013-02-20, 19:48   Link #107
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One other thing to keep in mind here, is how companies are conspiring to screw American workers. As long as we allow them to do this to us, we'll have problems with immigrants, legal or otherwise. Watch this video, and pay close attention to what the guy says, starting at 1:35:



"Our goal is clearly NOT to find a qualified and interested US worker..." - Lawrence M Lebowitz, BP of Marketing, Cohen & Grigsby

Worried about illegal immigrants coming across the border? You shouldn't be. Your "jerb" is more threatened by corporations wanting to replace you with a cheap substitute that they can bring into the country, and threaten them with no benefits and lousy hours, and they must cooperate or get sent home.
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Old 2013-02-20, 20:37   Link #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
One other thing to keep in mind here, is how companies are conspiring to screw American workers. As long as we allow them to do this to us, we'll have problems with immigrants, legal or otherwise. Watch this video, and pay close attention to what the guy says, starting at 1:35:



"Our goal is clearly NOT to find a qualified and interested US worker..." - Lawrence M Lebowitz, BP of Marketing, Cohen & Grigsby

Worried about illegal immigrants coming across the border? You shouldn't be. Your "jerb" is more threatened by corporations wanting to replace you with a cheap substitute that they can bring into the country, and threaten them with no benefits and lousy hours, and they must cooperate or get sent home.
I and many of my fellow engineers have run into this repeatedly. Job ads are purposely designed so that the company can "fail to find a qualified candidate" because they want an H1-B waiver. They have no intention of hiring someone domestically or giving someone 30 minutes with a manual.
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Old 2013-02-20, 20:53   Link #109
kyp275
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Ironically, it is stories like yours that give me great sympathy for illegals. Because if trying to do it legally gives you so many headaches, can take decades, with no guarantee, then I don't blame people for coming here illegally.
That's a rather poor argument. Should every person who are poor then go and live a life of crime because trying to make it legally can also gives many headaches, can take decades, with no guarantee? It's not a simple matter of choosing between A and B here.

Quote:
Unless one are a Native American, one has no right to complain about people coming here illegally.
If you're still following native american tribal laws I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
So essentially because your family was badly treated by people when you attempted to obtain citizenship, you believe everyone else should be...

I don't get it. Are you saying it is RIGHT that INS officer screwed your dad over? Because you are actually justifying what you went through as NORMAL. Why are you angry at people too poor to use the normal channels when it is the INS that screwed you? Who are you mad at?
Where did you get that from? You're drawing all sorts of weird conclusions out of thin air here. All I (and Ledgem tbh) said is that for the legal immigrants there are also plenty of issues that needs to be addressed, issues that for the most part are basically ignored, as the focus has almost entirely been on the illegals side of the coin.

I'm not anti-immigrants, far from it. But I also happen to believe that laws should be respected, and that it's asinine to prioritize law-breakers over those who actually followed the law.
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Old 2013-02-20, 21:12   Link #110
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Eh, those "Natives" should go back home to Siberia!
Even better, all those "non-Africans" should go back home to Africa!
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Old 2013-02-20, 21:25   Link #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
That's a rather poor argument. Should every person who are poor then go and live a life of crime because trying to make it legally can also gives many headaches, can take decades, with no guarantee?
I'd say yes. I recognize that it is a personal choice, but if one is unable to break out of poverty and feed oneself and one's family, then yes, steal. If the laws of society do not serve the citizens, then the laws should be ignored. And yes, I would understand if someone stole from me in this regard. Sucks, but that's why I work to get the laws changed, so they do benefit every citizen.

You may not agree, but I do try to be consistent with my beliefs.
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Old 2013-02-20, 21:40   Link #112
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I'd say yes. :) I recognize that it is a personal choice, but if one is unable to break out of poverty and feed oneself and one's family, then yes, steal. If the laws of society do not serve the citizens, then the laws should be ignored.
Kaijo is Chaotic Good? Intriguing.
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Old 2013-02-20, 22:35   Link #113
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According to some even the "Native American" are not native, having supposedly displaced yet another race that was here before them sometime over 10,000 years ago.

The issue it the legality of immigrants in the United States. Legal immigrants are fine. The illegals are the ones there are issues with at present.

In the past there were problems with pretty much all immigrants (legal or otherwise) due to racism and other -isms. If you were a foreigner, that was enough to cause a problem in the 1800s and early 1900s. Even if you brought lots of money (than you'd get good treatment, but people would either try to swindle you, steal from you, or just be envious of you and your foreign money).

You would be only slightly better off if you spoke English. Best without an accent, than you would mostly blend in in some of the larger cities. But segrigation was a thing then. You had the areas the Irish lived. Where the Italians lived. The Germans, the Russians, and even the Jews would be segrigated farther. Out West the laws were past against Chinese and Japanese immigrants, though the Japanese immigrants got only slightly better treatmet by law due to the Emperor making a stink about it. And all the while there were always Mexicans in the Southwest. Logically since that land had been taken from Mexico in 1848, though with only about 1% of Mexico's population living in all that territory. The rotational labor force from Mexico was kind of a given and even legal for the 1940s due to the war.

The worry people in the West have is that they (generally the White generally up until recently the majority population) will be overrun by Hispanics without the need for another war. (La Raza doesn't help their paranoia one bit).
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Old 2013-02-21, 08:29   Link #114
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
But illegals are withheld income, some of it are used to fund these faculties.
I suppose it depends on how the employer is working with the illegal immigrant. I was under the impression that many illegal immigrants are essentially paid under the table and are not reported. The employer may be withholding some income from them by not paying them a fair rate, but they're pocketing what's withheld for themselves.

As to funding faculties (hospitals), I wasn't aware of taxes going into hospitals. It doesn't really matter if they do, because the trend is clear: it's not unusual for hospitals to have to close down, and in many cases the monetary losses incurred through the emergency department are to blame. Again I'll state that this isn't purely the fault of illegal immigrants, but they are a contributing factor.

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
In any case, this is but one factor, others being the state being terribly broke and the fact that our health care system is run in a way to deny the poor care or have them cost life and limb just to stay alive. I feel that they are being singled out.
I wouldn't say that our healthcare system denies the poor care. We are obligated to provide emergency care to anyone and everyone, no questions asked. Compare this to Switzerland (or was it Sweden?), where there are a variety of health insurance coverage plans (including some very cheap bare-bones ones) but the hospitals are not obligated to do a thing for anyone who is uninsured. (Or so I hear from physicians here - anyone with greater familiarity with that system, please chime in.)

We have a variety of assistance programs designed specifically for funding with medical issues. People often think about Medicare, but Medicaid is a program for those in poverty. Medical care is expensive no matter who you are, though. The poor have a hard time because of their lack of financial resources, but the system isn't running against them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
So essentially because your family was badly treated by people when you attempted to obtain citizenship, you believe everyone else should be...
I wouldn't want anyone to have to go through what my family went through, which I'd venture to say was worse than what kyp275's family suffered (which was already pretty bad - people outside of the process may read it as simply waiting around for a few years, but there's a lot of stress and uncertainty associated with that process, as there are ramifications for employment and even whether you'd need to move out of the country). I don't think either of us talk about the suffering that occurs on the legal end because we want others to suffer similarly, or to suffer at all. The fact is that there is suffering and risk being taken whether legal or illegal. Doing it legally is not simply a matter of luck, personal connections, or wealth; it is not impossible for these illegal immigrants to go through the process legally.
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Old 2013-02-21, 12:28   Link #115
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Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
Even better, all those "non-Africans" should go back home to Africa!
Go back to the ocean, you land dwellers!

On immigration, science, and H1B:

YouTube
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
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Old 2013-02-21, 13:08   Link #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I'd say yes. I recognize that it is a personal choice, but if one is unable to break out of poverty and feed oneself and one's family, then yes, steal. If the laws of society do not serve the citizens, then the laws should be ignored. And yes, I would understand if someone stole from me in this regard. Sucks, but that's why I work to get the laws changed, so they do benefit every citizen.

You may not agree, but I do try to be consistent with my beliefs.
I'm not sure what's more disheartening - What you wrote here, or Dr. Casey actually thinking it constitutes chaotic good.

There's nothing good about stealing from productive, law-abiding people, many of who work very hard to have what they have and don't deserve to have it taken away from them just because of the existence of poverty. And to basically encourage such theft is the heights of irresponsibility, and can lead to major societal problems down the road if a lot of people follow you up on your encouragement.

So, given what you wrote here, do you think that the laws should be changed so that the US government gives all the basic necessities of life to each and every American citizen? And presumably, that said American citizenship should also be given to each and every person who wants it?

Logically-speaking, that's the only ways laws could be changed to prevent poor people in America from ever feeling it's necessary to steal. Also logically-speaking, you do realize what that will do to America's already burgeoning national debt right?

I sympathize with a poor person who steals to feed oneself and/or one's family, but that's not behavior that should be encouraged. It's a last resort that should be generally discouraged, with every legal avenue thoroughly exhausted before its even considered.
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Old 2013-02-21, 13:21   Link #117
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I truly believe that crime is the last resort for anybody. And the government's job is to make sure no one ever has to be forced into that position.

We are not saying it is okay to steal, or break laws in general. But if people are really that desperate, that means it needs to resolve not by prosecution, but by giving people more choices.

If one break rules because there was no other way, then giving harsher punishments would make no difference. As two people in this thread pointed out, the legal means of citizenship is borderline unjust. And that's even though their families could afford the lawyers. Current laws are simply not practical. Why immigration reform? Because what the United States needs is no longer met by the written laws. Thus, the laws need to reflect reality, not the other way around.
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Old 2013-02-21, 13:32   Link #118
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I truly believe that crime is the last resort for anybody. And the government's job is to make sure no one ever has to be forced into that position.

We are not saying it is okay to steal, or break laws in general. But if people are really that desperate, that means it needs to resolve not by prosecution, but by giving people more choices.

If one break rules because there was no other way, then giving harsher punishments would make no difference. As two people in this thread pointed out, the legal means of citizenship is borderline unjust. And that's even though their families could afford the lawyers. Current laws are simply not practical. Why immigration reform? Because what the United States needs is no longer met by the written laws. Thus, the laws need to reflect reality, not the other way around.
That's all fine, but don't encourage stealing in the interim. That's actually more likely to undo your cause than anything.

Keep in mind that when the poor man steals, it's usually not from the rich, because the rich tend to have their holdings very well-secured. No, it's Joe and Jane Average that feels the pinch when a poor man steals. And Joe and Jane Average are exactly who needs to be persuaded if you want to change the laws.

When Joe and Jane Average get stolen from, they're likely to just want more "tough on crime" laws, and/or for the thief to be deported (if applicable/possible).
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Old 2013-02-21, 13:40   Link #119
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That's all fine, but don't encourage stealing in the interim. That's actually more likely to undo your cause than anything.

Keep in mind that when the poor man steals, it's usually not from the rich, because the rich tend to have their holdings very well-secured. No, it's Joe and Jane Average that feels the pinch when a poor man steals. And Joe and Jane Average are exactly who needs to be persuaded if you want to change the laws.

When Joe and Jane Average get stolen from, they're likely to just want more "tough on crime" laws, and/or for the thief to be deported (if applicable/possible).
Also keep in mind that I am not suggesting all crimes are desperation based.

I would dare say most crimes are committed by career criminals, people who do it because they want to, not because they had to. My post only concerns the small percentage who did things out of desperation.
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Old 2013-02-21, 13:44   Link #120
Archon_Wing
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
I suppose it depends on how the employer is working with the illegal immigrant. I was under the impression that many illegal immigrants are essentially paid under the table and are not reported. The employer may be withholding some income from them by not paying them a fair rate, but they're pocketing what's withheld for themselves.

As to funding faculties (hospitals), I wasn't aware of taxes going into hospitals. It doesn't really matter if they do, because the trend is clear: it's not unusual for hospitals to have to close down, and in many cases the monetary losses incurred through the emergency department are to blame. Again I'll state that this isn't purely the fault of illegal immigrants, but they are a contributing factor.
Oh, where does the money come from then? The government doesn't give them money?

The point of an emergency department is to save lives, regardless of that person's value to society. The main reason it costs so much is that people are getting hurt, of which I would be considering ways to promote public safety over anything else.

Quote:
I wouldn't say that our healthcare system denies the poor care. We are obligated to provide emergency care to anyone and everyone, no questions asked. Compare this to Switzerland (or was it Sweden?), where there are a variety of health insurance coverage plans (including some very cheap bare-bones ones) but the hospitals are not obligated to do a thing for anyone who is uninsured. (Or so I hear from physicians here - anyone with greater familiarity with that system, please chime in.)
Well, I'm just going to let any European posters chime in on this issue. But, what does google give us?


As for providing emergency care, I'm just going to say that they will make you jump through all kinds of hoops and paperwork to get it if you're not immediately dying. Yes, I've seen people in the emergency ward get up and leave because they were made to wait for hours while absolutely no one gave a damn.
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