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Old 2013-02-20, 13:18   Link #3001
Sunder the Gold
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Originally Posted by WarpObscura View Post
It does rather depend on what work you're looking at, though. Some works like ZnT have lightning as the high end of wind, but others like Avatar have it as fire's high end. For still others like Dresden Files, the high end of fire is being able to control it so finely you can have a laser-like beam that's far more efficient than the stereotypical flaming columns.
This was technically also a potential high-end for Firebending in Avatar.

Though Combustion-Man was sort of a freak, it's possible that someone could have duplicated his results if he had consented to research or teaching.
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Old 2013-02-20, 14:21   Link #3002
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Fire is often depicted as offensive because it exists by consuming things. No fuel = no fire.

Lightning/Wind are often paired together - lightning is often seen as precise (bolts) but also random (hence crit chance or damage spread in games)

Earth are often the AoE type offensively (earthquake, mudslides as inspiration) while water is often a defensive element (healing/purifying qualities of water tend to be emphasized) Water can also be a defensively crippling element, as if you add water to earth it becomes things like swamp or quicksand.


Also something I noticed in Force (I haven't kept up though) that I think kind of supports Aki's idea that fire is generally weak(er) in Nanoha. Remember that Hayate used an ice spell on the Huckebein and they couldn't dispel the magic links holding the ice together; they ended up using a physical sword to cut the block apart - however I believe Cypha (?) dispelled Signum's flames easily enough. Either it is the difference between the physical and not (a block of ice is self sustaining and fire, without fuel cannot sustain itself) or that ice is a stronger, more sufficiently bonded material than fire is in terms of generating it. I'm not familiar enough with Force to compare Fate's lightning to Signum's fire, however.

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Old 2013-02-20, 14:26   Link #3003
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It's mainly because the fuel for Signum's flames was her mana, and with that delinked, the fire went out. However, it's a specific case and not what Aki says, that the element of fire is weak no matter what. Essentially its his usual hate-trolling of Signum's character.
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Old 2013-02-20, 22:13   Link #3004
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You have to admit being so dependant to mana is a very crippling disadvantage against other elements, tough xDU

Agito used her fake flames more wisely during the rematch, her attacks still can't do shit to Cypha but at least managed to distract her and reduce her perception allowing Signum to defend herself and score a few hits.

So, in Nanohaverse, fire is quite weak comapred to other elements but can still be used creatively.
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Old 2013-02-20, 22:18   Link #3005
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Yes, because Ice has done so much more...

So has lightning, when all I've seen it do is do some clothing damage and burn some skin to people.
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Old 2013-02-20, 22:19   Link #3006
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
You have to admit being so dependant to mana is a very crippling disadvantage against other elements, tough xDU

Agito used her fake flames more wisely during the rematch, her attacks still can't do shit to Cypha but at least managed to distract her and reduce her perception allowing Signum to defend herself and score a few hits.

So, in Nanohaverse, fire is quite weak comapred to other elements but can still be used creatively.
Aki, "Signum losing" isn't a valid reason for fire being weak. Nor is Cypha being remarkably strong. And there's no evidence of it being weak except for whatever is in your twisted imagination.
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Old 2013-02-20, 22:28   Link #3007
Akiyoshi
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Yes, because Ice has done so much more...
Instant solid structures have lots of usefull aplications.

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So has lightning, when all I've seen it do is do some clothing damage and burn some skin to people.
Check FORCE 29, Curren learned how awesome lightning is the hard way xD!

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Aki, "Signum losing" isn't a valid reason for fire being weak. Nor is Cypha being remarkably strong. And there's no evidence of it being weak except for whatever is in your twisted imagination.
Signum used fire in her battle, it didn't work and got trounced. Seems pretty logical o_o
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Old 2013-02-20, 22:30   Link #3008
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Aki, you should be proud of yourself...

You single-handedly made me stop reading Force simply because I was so tired of your bitching.

DOn't you feel happy to know that you can ruin the franchise so horribly for people?
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Old 2013-02-20, 22:41   Link #3009
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Instant solid structures have lots of usefull aplications.
None of which have proven viable in any of the instances of usage in the franchise. Not with Chrono, or with Rein Zwei, or with Hayate... so no. That logic points to "fail".

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Signum used fire in her battle, it didn't work and got trounced. Seems pretty logical o_o
Since Signum was trying to capture Cypha and not kill her without the aid of an AEC Armament, her getting trounced was inevitable. It wasn't because she used fire. That's only in your screwed up logic.
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Old 2013-02-20, 22:51   Link #3010
Akiyoshi
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None of which have proven viable in any of the instances of usage in the franchise. Not with Chrono, or with Rein Zwei, or with Hayate... so no. That logic points to "fail".
The hucks peed their pants at the sight of a giant iceberg, a giant fire at an airport several squads had being troubles with was instantle offed by a powerfull ice spell, Lutecia almost got caught inside an insta-cage made of ice and has to be saved by Agito.

So far ice has proven to have pretty useful.

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Since Signum was trying to capture Cypha and not kill her without the aid of an AEC Armament, her getting trounced was inevitable. It wasn't because she used fire. That's only in your screwed up logic.
She was holding herself against Cypha quite decently until laevatein got damaged and she decided to use fire spells against Cypha ...and we know how that runed out xDU

She got screwed the instant she started to focus on fire spells xDU
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Old 2013-02-20, 22:56   Link #3011
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She was screwed no matter what she did in that fight. That was the point. It is NOT an indication of her chosen element being weak, so quit trying to portray it as that. Just quit it entirely with your constant Signum hatred. We know you hate her, so quit reminding us with every post you make.
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Old 2013-02-20, 23:00   Link #3012
Akiyoshi
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She was screwed no matter what she did in that fight. That was the point.
I tought the point was that she lost because she took bad descicions like, you know, rushing like LEEROY JENKINS xDU

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It is NOT an indication of her chosen element being weak, so quit trying to portray it as that.
Considering Lightning and Ice seems to fare better againt EC Drivers than fire i guess is in fact an indication.

By the way, MCA cannot be "chosen" or "trained" isn't? it0's kind of an inherent trait. Or at least i remeber it being something like that xD
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Old 2013-02-20, 23:13   Link #3013
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
I tought the point was that she lost because she took bad descicions like, you know, rushing like LEEROY JENKINS xDU
Considering the fact that Eclipse Drivers can nullify spells, what was she supposed to do? Sit around preparing a spell? Or use her sword bow form to fire mana arrows?

Quote:
Considering Lightning and Ice seems to fare better againt EC Drivers than fire i guess is in fact an indication.

By the way, MCA cannot be "chosen" or "trained" isn't? it0's kind of an inherent trait. Or at least i remeber it being something like that xD
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Old 2013-02-20, 23:22   Link #3014
Akiyoshi
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Considering the fact that Eclipse Drivers can nullify spells, what was she supposed to do? Sit around preparing a spell? Or use her sword bow form to fire mana arrows?
*Buy time time until reinforces come?
*Play with her speed to outmaneuver Cypha (Signum shown to be quite faster than her)?
*Use the enviroment to compensate her disadvantages (a forest is a pretty good place to do tricky stuff during a fight)?
*Provoking explosions rather than flamethrowers (as Isis showed, explosions alone cannot be cancelled)?

...anything other than running straight to the person who nearly destroyed your sword and shown to be capable to regenerate easily xDU I mean geez, what was she thinking?

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Aki, "Signum losing" isn't a valid reason for fire being weak. Nor is Cypha being remarkably strong.
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She was screwed no matter what she did in that fight. That was the point.
So Signum was screwed no matter what she does in that fight but that also isn't an indicator of Cypha being remarkably strong o_o?

I think i got a little lost here xDU
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Old 2013-02-20, 23:29   Link #3015
Lhklan
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I'll answer later. Have to go away for a bit.
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Old 2013-02-20, 23:42   Link #3016
Rising Dragon
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I tought the point was that she lost because she took bad descicions like, you know, rushing like LEEROY JENKINS xDU
Stalling for reinforcements wouldn't likely have worked, since Signum had no real way of stalling--none of her attacks were effective for such, as solid hits were breaking Laevatein and magic was completely ineffective.

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By the way, MCA cannot be "chosen" or "trained" isn't? it0's kind of an inherent trait. Or at least i remeber it being something like that xD
Chrono trained to use ice magic. Since ice magic is most likely MCA, it can be trained, but it's more difficult than a natural affinity.

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So Signum was screwed no matter what she does in that fight but that also isn't an indicator of Cypha being remarkably strong o_o?

I think i got a little lost here xDU
Damn right you did. "Cypha being remarkably strong" is not a valid reason for calling fire weak. That is, again, your attempts at trolling to try and discredit Signum through your arguments against fire magic and Arisa and everything else.
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Old 2013-02-20, 23:58   Link #3017
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Lol the villains are just too strong with anti-magic. Signum's not weak.
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Old 2013-02-21, 00:00   Link #3018
Akiyoshi
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Stalling for reinforcements wouldn't likely have worked, since Signum had no real way of stalling--none of her attacks were effective for such, as solid hits were breaking Laevatein and magic was completely ineffective.
Reinforcements were on the way and Signum already had Cypha's attention, she could had tried goading her into a longer fight instead of trying bombard her with fire she knows is useless and binds she already SAW her breaking. Running straight to her with a damaged weapon and a weak strategy ruinned her chances instantly instead of trying to buy time.

And yeah, that basically demonstrates Fire is a weak element in the Nanoha canon, Cypha couldn't had dispelled Lightning or Ice as a easily.

Signum and Agito have some explosive fire spells, they could had focuse on that instead of using mana-fueled flames as means of attack against an opponent Signum already knows can cut mana xDU

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Chrono trained to use ice magic. Since ice magic is most likely MCA, it can be trained, but it's more difficult than a natural affinity.
Ice is not an Mana Conversion Affinity, the only ones listed so far are Lightning and Fire. Ice magic can be apparently trained with enough dedication and specialization but is not an inherent ability like the other two.

Altough, Reinforce Zwei is so good and fast with it i had my doubts for a while xD
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Old 2013-02-21, 00:05   Link #3019
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Reinforcements were on the way and Signum already had Cypha's attention, she could had tried goading her into a longer fight instead of trying bombard her with fire she knows is useless and binds she already SAW her breaking. Running straight to her with a damaged weapon adn aweak strategy ruinned her chances instantly instead of trying to buy time.

And yeah, that basically demonstrates Fire is a weak element in the Nanoha canon, Cypha couldn't had dispelled Lightning or Ice as a easily.
Reinforcements wouldn't be able to come in time because Signum had no way of actually holding Cypha off. Therefore, it was impossible--her attempts at doing so would only result in her weapon breaking and her powers being nullified, which would have happened in any situation that lacked an AEC Armament.

Ergo, she did not have a chance. At all. It wasn't because "fire is weak" or "Signum is weak". It was just because Cypha had all the advantages on account of the Eclipse Virus.

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Ice is not an Mana Conversion Affinity, the only ones listed so far are Lightning and Fire. Ice magic can be apparently trained with enough dedication and specialization but is not an inherent ability like the other two.

Altough, Reinforce Zwei is so good and fast with it i had my doubts for a while xD
It's not confirmed, no, but that's why I said most likely (again, read the goddamn posts completely for once) and its mechanics from the looks of things work just like mana conversion.
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Old 2013-02-21, 00:16   Link #3020
Akiyoshi
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Reinforcements wouldn't be able to come in time because Signum had no way of actually holding Cypha off. Therefore, it was impossible--her attempts at doing so would only result in her weapon breaking and her powers being nullified, which would have happened in any situation that lacked an AEC Armament.
Not necessarily, Agito with explosions alone managed to hold of against Freaking Reacted Tohma xDU Showing that well focused they can overcome the dividing effect by focusing on explosions. I doubt that will be enough to beat Cypha but surely will prolong the fight enough to search for another outcome. Laevatein was already breaking and with that knowledge a decoy could be settled to guide Cypha into a trap.

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Ergo, she did not have a chance. At all. It wasn't because "fire is weak" or "Signum is weak". It was just because Cypha had all the advantages on account of the Eclipse Virus.
Fire was weak against Cypha and Signum was also weak against her divider (remember the discussion about Vita in the Craddle xD), but even on account of that, one of the pivotal reasons the fight ended as humilliatingly terrible as it did was the fact the idiot ball was pressed so hard on Signum and Agito during that fight. they took terrible desicions, lost their cool pretty easily and overall acted like straight minded morons during that last attempt at capturing Cypha (another terrible desicion by the way, you said Signum wanted to capture Cypha alive and that was a disadvantage for her, if that was true Signum should have switched strategies for something more stealthly of lethal the moment she noticed Cypha was too much for her to chew ...instead she tried to capture her AGAIN with a spell she already saw failing to do that xDU).

Saying they "had no way to hold Cypha" or that it was "impossible" is just lazy thinking. Last season we just saw the Numbers who are FAR weaker than the main cast pull out come crazy effective strategies to put the heroes at stake.

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It's not confirmed, no, but that's why I said most likely (again, read the goddamn posts completely for once) and its mechanics from the looks of things work just like mana conversion.
Only in Reinforce Zwei's case. Chrono and Hayate had horri-long delay in casting and play Ice spells mostly for AoE attacks while Rein-chan seems to be far mroe versatile than anyone at ice magic to date xD
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