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Old 2013-02-21, 14:03   Link #121
NorthernFallout
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@Ledgem: Sweden has a tax-based system. We do have insurance, but you won't be denied. State pays most of it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Sweden
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Old 2013-02-21, 14:07   Link #122
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I truly believe that crime is the last resort for anybody. And the government's job is to make sure no one ever has to be forced into that position.
no Vallen, it is NOT just the government responsibility.

People have a responsibility of their own to make sure they don't have to resort to crime.
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Old 2013-02-21, 14:10   Link #123
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
no Vallen, it is NOT just the government responsibility.

People have a responsibility of their own to make sure they don't have to resort to crime.
So... People are responsible to not be forced into an impossible choice?

I full on agree that criminals who do what they do by choice should have the book thrown at them. But I have trouble grasping the concept of "it is your own fault that you are now desperate, so DIE already!"
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Old 2013-02-21, 14:16   Link #124
Dr. Casey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I'm not sure what's more disheartening - What you wrote here, or Dr. Casey actually thinking it constitutes chaotic good.
Ah, don't take my post too seriously; it was mainly a joke. (I also tend to assume that most people fall under the 'Good' alignment, so that's where that part comes from.) And I took Kaijo's post to mean stealing food and nothing but, which I don't guess is too bad assuming it's cheap and easily replacable stuff like a few bananas to last them for the night or something. Stealing has always been one of my most hated things in the world and I've always considered it one of the most disgusting and unfair things that one person can do to another (dating back all the way to elementary school whenever I witnessed kids stealing toys and other treasured possessions that another kid brought from home), so I'm definitely not going to condone it, even if my glib comment might've given that impression.
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Old 2013-02-21, 14:16   Link #125
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I don't anyone is saying what they're doing is fine and should be committed without repercussion.

The problem is that instead of treating people as humans who have violated a law, my country is frequently viewing them as some kind of subhuman, malicious plague that couldn't be productive to society. At the same time, understanding why someone does something does not absolve them of responsibility. The issue is what are the exact repercussions.

There are many repercussions to excess enforcement. Violating the privacy of businesses and individuals to weed out illegals puts an unfair strain on law abiding citizens. Spending a ton of resources and money to catch them, while some cities can't even maintain their own police forces to deal with violent criminals is insane. Deporting parents from their children born here, is not a good thing either. And we have no right to deport their children if born here.

This is why we do not have the police randomly going around, entering people's houses searching for pirated materials. This is why we don't send spies going around waiting to catch people for jaywalking.

I think it's somewhat muddled on the line, but nobody said anything about just handing illegals citizenship. It's not the sole mode of living in this country. It is obvious that if they refuse to cooperate, then they need to be removed. But if a matter can be resolved more peacefully, then it should be taken.

Though if you want my opinion, I can't buy Washington's intentions on this in a sincere fashion. Just more smoke and mirrors
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Old 2013-02-21, 14:19   Link #126
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
So... People are responsible to not be forced into an impossible choice?

I full on agree that criminals who do what they do by choice should have the book thrown at them. But I have trouble grasping the concept of "it is your own fault that you are now desperate, so DIE already!"
i am not saying they should die but people should be planing ahead so they don't end in impossible. Animals prepare for winter by eating a lot of food to get fat. Shouldn't people know better and prepare some savings for emergencies?
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Old 2013-02-21, 14:23   Link #127
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
Ah, don't take my post too seriously; it was mainly a joke. (I also tend to assume that most people fall under the 'Good' alignment, so that's where that part comes from.) And I took Kaijo's post to mean stealing food and nothing but, which I don't guess is too bad assuming it's cheap and easily replacable stuff like a few bananas to last them for the night or something. Stealing has always been one of my most hated things in the world and I've always considered it one of the most disgusting and unfair things that one person can do to another (dating back all the way to elementary school whenever I witnessed kids stealing toys and other treasured possessions that another kid brought from home), so I'm definitely not going to condone it, even if my glib comment might've given that impression.
Just to be clear, I'm definitely not saying that Kaijo's a bad guy. I consider both you and Kaijo friends, which is partly why I was disheartened to begin with. I'm almost never disheartened by the words of someone I don't like and/or respect.

But yeah, my view on stealing is about the same as your own.


On the illegal immigration topic, Kud's "Green Card Compromise" is an interesting idea. Citizenship retains a certain distinct value, but everybody can work in America and will not be viewed as "illegal" for doing so.
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Old 2013-02-21, 14:40   Link #128
Bri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
On immigration, science, and H1B:

Spoiler for for space:
It never ceases to amaze me how much science is similar to sports. The US university system has the money and draws in the worlds best talent while mixing it with the top local talent who managed to endure the lower level education system. Ivy League meets Premier league .
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Old 2013-02-21, 14:44   Link #129
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i am not saying they should die but people should be planing ahead so they don't end in impossible. Animals prepare for winter by eating a lot of food to get fat. Shouldn't people know better and prepare some savings for emergencies?
How is that even relevant? No, seriously, you think people who are desperate did something bad to get in that position?

No, seriously. Are you saying people who are desperate deserved it? Because I do not know what else to interpret your comment. Please elaborate and explain why my understanding of what you just wrote is wrong.
Quote:
It never ceases to amaze me how much science is similar to sports. The US university system has the money and draws in the worlds best talent while mixing it with the top local talent who managed to endure the lower level education system. Ivy League meets Premier league .
And then you have Africa where many football stars were born, but they were all recruited to Europe and local clubs suffered.
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Old 2013-02-21, 14:48   Link #130
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
How is that even relevant? No, seriously, you think people who are desperate did something bad to get in that position?

No, seriously. Are you saying people who are desperate deserved it? Because I do not know what else to interpret your comment. Please elaborate and explain why my understanding of what you just wrote is wrong.
It's not an either-or, there are too much variables and shades of greys in between. For example, someone who was born into poverty, in a poor neighborhood without ever having any realistic chance at success is one thing, but someone who had a decent background, but made bad choices and started down the road to drugs/gambling or just living beyond his means is quite another. Both can become desperate, but one certainly dug the hole themselves.
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Old 2013-02-21, 14:52   Link #131
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
How is that even relevant? No, seriously, you think people who are desperate did something bad to get in that position?
if they made the wrong choice yes.
A unexpected medical conditional, does not deserve it.
Taking on debt to finance lifestyle beyond your means. Yes, it is deserve.
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Old 2013-02-21, 14:57   Link #132
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
if they made the wrong choice yes.
A unexpected medical conditional, does not deserve it.
Taking on debt to finance lifestyle beyond your means. Yes, it is deserve.
IF they made the wrong choices. But what made you think someone who is desperate is because of some high flying lifestyle?

How many desperate Americans do you think got there because of "lifestyle beyond their means"?
10%? 50%? 90%?

You are not making it clear. You say people who are desperate deserved it. I ask you how many people do you think that actually applies.

47%, perhaps?
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Old 2013-02-21, 15:02   Link #133
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
IF they made the wrong choices. But what made you think someone who is desperate is because of some high flying lifestyle?

How many desperate Americans do you think got there because of "lifestyle beyond their means"?
10%? 50%? 90%?

You are not making it clear. You say people who are desperate deserved it. I ask you how many people do you think that actually applies.
i am not saying people who are desperate deserve it.

i am saying there 2 types of desperate people.

Those who are desperate through no fault of their own (medical emergency, natural disaster).

Those who are desperate because they did make the wrong choice (bad career decision, becoming a parent as a teen, living beyond their means).

Help the first as much as possible but only give the most minimal assistance to the 2nd.
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Old 2013-02-21, 15:04   Link #134
willx
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Re: Credit Card Debt -- http://useconomy.about.com/od/demand...Statistics.htm -- Avg. Household has over $8K in credit card debt. This should ideally be zero.

Re: Medical Expenses -- http://useconomy.about.com/od/usdebt...ebt-Crisis.htm -- Half of all bankruptcies are caused by sudden medical expenses.

Random: There are "debtors prisons" are still a common practice in certain countries. During the financial crisis please were fleeing Dubai and abandoning their vehicles at their airport for this reason.
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Old 2013-02-21, 15:05   Link #135
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i am not saying people who are desperate deserve it.

i am saying there 2 types of desperate people.

Those who are desperate through no fault of their own (medical emergency, natural disaster).

Those who are desperate because they did make the wrong choice (bad career decision, becoming a parent as a teen, living beyond their means).

Help the first as much as possible but only give the most minimal assistance to the 2nd.
You do realise if you don't help desperate people, no matter how they got there, they would either be in jail for a crime or dead, right?

You might want to make a distinction between the two, but realistically the US government does not benefit from having desperate people left to their own devices. If they commit a crime and be put in prison, they would be living off the government dime anyway. So unless you think the people you believe deserve to be desperate should be killed off, the only sensible thing is to help them all.

Minimal assistance? That would just keep them in a desperate state for longer. The nation wants as few desperate people as possible, it keeps society stable. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean it is a good idea to "punish" them.
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Old 2013-02-21, 15:08   Link #136
mangamuscle
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about blaming immigrants for all evils

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
It's not just America, it happens everywhere.
Not so true. Here in Mexico we have a history of welcoming immigrants, back when the Civil war in Spain (right before WWII) we received an influx from people from Spain (that feared for their lives under the rule of Francisco Franco) and in general people always are warm to foreigners (there are no latino- italian- irish- like ghettos or housing facilities). That is not to say there is no hate towards foreigners, but it is of the esoteric kind, the left has always blamed the USA in general for our economic problems (which have been mostly home made and Bill Clinton did save us once from secure economic downfall, heck we are in a better position than the EU or USA after the 2008 near depression); of course people on the middle or the right now better.
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Old 2013-02-21, 15:17   Link #137
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
Not so true. Here in Mexico we have a history of welcoming immigrants, back when the Civil war in Spain (right before WWII) we received an influx from people from Spain (that feared for their lives under the rule of Francisco Franco) and in general people always are warm to foreigners (there are no latino- italian- irish- like ghettos or housing facilities). That is not to say there is no hate towards foreigners, but it is of the esoteric kind, the left has always blamed the USA in general for our economic problems (which have been mostly home made and Bill Clinton did save us once from secure economic downfall, heck we are in a better position than the EU or USA after the 2008 near depression); of course people on the middle or the right now better.
Ireland used to be the same way. But then during the boom years a lot of people started to arrive, and anti-immigrant sentiment began to rear it's ugly head.

If Mexico lacks anti-immigrant sentiment, it's probably because very few people immigrate there (and of course, people are emigrating from Mexico).


EDIT: @ US Healthcare, it's bad because it's wasteful. Think of the number of wasteful entities taking money out of the system, and then also consider that due to the way insurance companies function, there's no reason competitive pressures to encourage the use of cheaper treatments or drugs.
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Old 2013-02-21, 15:21   Link #138
Xellos-_^
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Stephanie was then told by a billing clerk that the estimated cost of Sean’s visit — just to be examined for six days so a treatment plan could be devised — would be $48,900, due in advance. Stephanie got her mother to write her a check. “You do anything you can in a situation like that,” she says. The Recchis flew to Houston, leaving Stephanie’s mother to care for their two teenage children.
About a week later, Stephanie had to ask her mother for $35,000 more so Sean could begin the treatment the doctors had decided was urgent. His condition had worsened rapidly since he had arrived in Houston. He was “sweating and shaking with chills and pains,” Stephanie recalls. “He had a large mass in his chest that was … growing. He was panicked.”
Nonetheless, Sean was held for about 90 minutes in a reception area, she says, because the hospital could not confirm that the check had cleared. Sean was allowed to see the doctor only after he advanced MD Anderson $7,500 from his credit card. The hospital says there was nothing unusual about how Sean was kept waiting. According to MD Anderson communications manager Julie Penne, “Asking for advance payment for services is a common, if unfortunate, situation that confronts hospitals all over the United States.”


http://healthland.time.com/2013/02/2...re-killing-us/

found this article form the times about the US health care system.
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Old 2013-02-21, 15:31   Link #139
Archon_Wing
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Well, I was accompanying someone to the EMERGENCY WARD and they were made to wait several hours while losing blood. Oh, just put this over it. "Cool Story Bro", and surely when you're losing blood, you want to fill out more papers. People that were hurting just left, because they were made to wait 6-7 hours and nobody gave a damn.

You're just a piece of flesh and a cash register to them. Or maybe a corpse, that will cut into their profits a bit and would require them to write a half hearted apology to your grieving family.

Welcome to America. If you haven't saved up at least $100,000, you are nothing but a piece of trash that deserves to be thrown into the dumpster for the crime of getting sick or having an accident, since you most likely can't afford the burial costs. Of course, you deserved it. You weren't born into the right family, or had the wrong skin color. I'm fine though. I was born to parents that worked hard to come here, so I had citizenship to begin with and even now they could help me with my lazy ass. But it's okay. Despite the fact that I have done nothing to earn any of this, I should spill some self righteous vitrol to everyone that wasn't as fortunate enough without knowing who they are.

"What the fuck have I done to deserve more than those hard working folk?". Nothing. I guess I'm not a hypocrite like the rest that are pissing on them.
TL;DR…
rant
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Hah, fuck you. It's the same wolf disguised in sheep's clothing for populism. Sorry, fuck you. And I'm not going anywhere til everyone realizes the constant treachery our leaders have for this country's values. It's just Another distraction, while the folks in Washington continue to spend away all our money as Mr. Status Quo and friends continue to strip the country for their own needs, since they know that when disaster strikes, they won't be the ones feeling it.
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2013-02-21 at 16:03.
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Old 2013-02-21, 15:33   Link #140
ArchmageXin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
found this article form the times about the US health care system.
One of the huge understated problem with Medical and Law is the cost of Education.

Most Law school charges ~150K (even the shitty ones) for their education.

Most medical school also go 150-250K Plus.

The reason, the law school or medical school (and the general public) ASSUME you will make 160K to a quarter million a year. So of course they charge the daily hell out of you.

Results?

The Law students can only go work for the Gold Plated "Big Law"firms which only serve Big Corp clients and rich in order to pay off her debt, the poor are left with overworked public defenders (which explain why America has one of the biggest incarceration rates).

The medical student can only go practice as specialist (Heart surgeons, Brain Surgeons) to make sure her debts are cleared out in a reasonable time period. Which means this country suffer a dearth of primary physicians and have to rely on immigrant doctors, or worse.

Of course, the Law/med school are not ENTIRELY at fault, since one of U.S Ranking for aforementioned schools has a large carteria called "Spending per student", so it is actually in the Law school/Med school's favor to charge more to raise their ranking (which make a world's difference in finding a job post grad)

So....we are screwed.
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