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Old 2013-02-21, 10:00   Link #181
Sides
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Because the PS4 is build on x86 tech, not all PSN titles will be useable on the PS4. Considering that sony does actually jumps onto different architecture each generation, make sure you are completely aware that the next console might not be able to play PS4gen's PSN titles, before going complete DD this gen.

source: engadget
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Old 2013-02-21, 10:29   Link #182
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I was really underwhelmed, honestly. I expected a lot of details to be revealed at E3, or at least closer to launch, but this was like watching Nintendo's Wii U reveals. Just not much to go on, except that Sony basically said "we're going to do everything they did, but more of it, and better!" But I don't feel they've done a good job of that.

Sure, sharing videos is nice, I guess. Miiverse is great though, and is only getting better. And PC is far superior, with years of support for this concept.

Gakai streaming is nice, but I doubt we'll see full library support. And I expect MS to stumble here as well. I worry about those PSN and Live purchases people have made. Nintendo remains quite strong with their BC, but all three really lack the ability to run old software like PC's can.

The controller was meh. It suits those who want evolution, perhaps, but it feels "me too" in the face of Nintendo. I generally tend to chuckle at this, because as much as people love to slam Nintendo for their hardware, their controller innovations end up adopted anyway.

The games were not impressive. Graphically, it's not that huge of a leap, but more worrisome is that Sony loves overselling and misleading about power. I saw nothing jaw dropping. Killzone looked impressive, but the AI, models, and animations were awful. It was also heavily scripted, meaning that the developers could use tricks to hide what they don't want you to see. And if anyone remembers the PS3 reveal, I have no faith that developers were running any of it on the system, even if they claim they are. By far the most interesting "game", was the sculpting tool with the Move controller. Now that was innovative, and will draw in a lot of players if marketed properly.

Put simply, most of the game reveals look like they were directed by JJ Abrams. Lens flare and bloom everywhere. If that's "next gen dynamic lighting", I'll pass.

While they mentioned you can play used games, and the system has a disk drive, they also have patented many ideas now that would restrict used games. Even the idea of downloading full games to "demo" them seems like a move to push away from used gaming. From a business standpoint, digital is the future. The problem is how much access they are willing to let you have....and what happens when you don't have internet or the service has interruptions.

And of course, the services. I expect MS to push this more, but really this is what it's really all about. They want an "everything box". I wonder if they're pushing themselves out of the market by doing this. If everything is eventually usable on any device, is there really any difference between Sony and a third party developer? I think people don't realize that the only reason the Apple ecosystem works is because of their proprietary hardware and software. It's why Android lags behind them even with its "open like a PC" design. Nintendo gets this. You don't buy one of their systems just for third parties anymore. You buy them because you love Nintendo hardware and their software ecosystem.

Ultimately my biggest worry is the third parties themselves. I'm starting to miss the era of Sega, quite frankly. Third parties have become bigger than the console makers themselves, and this hasn't been a good thing. With the larger companies spending the middle tier companies out of existence, the market has become stratified between "indie" and "Hollywood". If the other entertainment industries are any idea, this is not a good thing for the industry in the long term. Throwing big money around and chasing money down the drain is like Icarus chasing the sun. The end result is a few megapublishers dictating the market, and the breadth of games during the 80's, 90's, and early 2k's, will seem a distant memory going forward.

Drive Club for example, may be the developers vision for a detailed driving game, enthusiast style. But my thought wasn't about their vision for online challenge modes and super realistic engines I'll rarely see. It was "but is this game fun to play?"

Fun. That part of gaming that the western driven industry seems to forget in their equations. Once you get past the set pieces, grand music, and fancy graphics, how many games from western studios can you really say were fun and stuck with you? The glut of such games sitting on used shelves and Steam backlogs while "quirky Japanese" titles get harder to find and more expensive tells me we're in for a crash on at least one side of the pond.

Anyway, those are mostly my thoughts for now. I definitely think E3 is going to be amazing this year, and the second half of the year will be really exciting to watch as all of these competing visions clash.
you can't instantly sharing video with PC and WiiU.

If your Wiiu console died all your purchase died with it - no universal account in 2013..

The controller is just natural evolution of DS and touchpad already exist on vita.

Do you expect them to blow all their load now? when there're still many event in the horizon?

Sony patent tons of shit doesn't mean they will use them and this no used game rumour already exist since the beginning of PS3

Game reveal rather meh yes I agreed but no way the hardware and feature reveal is underwhelming. A lot of cool feature that I really liked - instant pause/save, helping your friend by taking control of the game etc etc

So yeah I mostly disagreed with you
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Old 2013-02-21, 11:53   Link #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
100% agree Solace I also found it incredibly underwhelming, there just wasn't enough there to build any real excitement for me at least.

KZ4 is just another example of the brute force graphics > gameplay mentality and once the initial awe of its looks wore off the gameplay itself looked no different to anything else out right now..

Half the point of a console unveiling is to well unveil the actual console and they didn't even do that which is frankly a little worrying.

Also they briefly touched on that you can play last gen games by streaming them but tiptoed past weather you'd actually have to re-buy them again....
I can't see how not showing off the box is worrying. In the end who cares what it looks like? I don't sit watching my PS2 or PS3 thinking "wow very pretty box." Long as when you power the thing up the games play that's all that really matters. They revealed what actually is important (aside from price which would have been nice). What is under the hood and what is this thing going to be able to do.

Considering the whole previous gen games on the PSN, I'd expect re-buying games would be the pattern again. Though would be nice if they found a way to recognize the old games and then stream them without buying them again.

Frankly I think they accomplished more than what I was hoping for. Revealed some games, confirmed things on the hardware, controller, and networking. A positive especially being that this will be easier for developers to get into and thus get the PS4 more games in the long haul.

All this sets them up perfectly for future events like E3. Where they can go ahead and show the box, reveal the price, release date, and more games.
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Old 2013-02-21, 12:01   Link #184
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Hm GDDR5, interesting choice.
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Old 2013-02-21, 12:01   Link #185
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Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
I can't see how not showing off the box is worrying. In the end who cares what it looks like?
The main concern I've been seeing is that they didn't show it because they didn't want to tip their hand that there's no optical drive. Ie: no physical games, no used games, etc.
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Old 2013-02-21, 12:22   Link #186
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Now that I think about it, Insta-pause has been around since the PSP!

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Hm GDDR5, interesting choice.
Yeah, give 2 more good years and it will be just outdated as a Pentium II...

Hope 4K resolution sets new standards for High Definition.
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Old 2013-02-21, 12:32   Link #187
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
The main concern I've been seeing is that they didn't show it because they didn't want to tip their hand that there's no optical drive. Ie: no physical games, no used games, etc.
Well, Sony has officially announced that they're not blocking used game, and not including optical drive at this point would also be a shoot-self-in-face feature, as it would only serve to not just alienate, but completely cut off the market of consumers that also uses their console as a multimedia device, and people who do not have reliable access to broadband internet, or runs on metered services.

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Originally Posted by Tong View Post
Yeah, give 2 more good years and it will be just outdated as a Pentium II...

Hope 4K resolution sets new standards for High Definition.
GDDR5 has been around since 2008, while it's not exactly new, it's the fastest available considering the standard for GDDR6 will not be finalized until sometime in 2014. Even then, I'd hardly call it as "outdated as a Pentium II", there are still new products built with GDDR3 now, but do you see any new P2-based system?

And 4K is meh, while it'd be good for projectors, for TV it's pointless. The vast majority of people will not have a TV of sufficient size to benefit from 4K. Just ask your friends and see what their wives think about them buying an 80"+ TV Not to mention how close one would have to sit to really tell the difference between 1080P and 4K, how many people want to sit 5 feet away from a 80" screen?

Last edited by kyp275; 2013-02-21 at 12:49.
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Old 2013-02-21, 12:36   Link #188
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Well, Sony has officially announced that they're not blocking used game, and not including optical drive at this point would also be a shoot-self-in-face feature, as it would only serve to not just alienate, but completely cut off the market of consumers that also uses their console as a multimedia device, and people who do not have reliable access to broadband internet, or runs on metered services.
I also find it unlikely that they would remove the Blu Ray player function. That would be a big deal and with no real benefit for them.
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Old 2013-02-21, 13:33   Link #189
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The main concern I've been seeing is that they didn't show it because they didn't want to tip their hand that there's no optical drive. Ie: no physical games, no used games, etc.
There's an optical drive for BD and DVD support in the specs. They didn't show the console because they haven't finalized on it yet.

Sony supports the idea of taking your game and playing it on someone's else console, so they said "yes" to used games.
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Old 2013-02-21, 14:04   Link #190
Sides
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
And 4K is meh, while it'd be good for projectors, for TV it's pointless. The vast majority of people will not have a TV of sufficient size to benefit from 4K. Just ask your friends and see what their wives think about them buying an 80"+ TV Not to mention how close one would have to sit to really tell the difference between 1080P and 4K, how many people want to sit 5 feet away from a 80" screen?
4K is, just like HD, a marketing buzzword. However dump it into the mass market, and they would probably say how visually stunning everything looks on it, even on tiny screen. What is worst it that they probably will have their 4K TVs hooked up to a bluray player, or ps4, using composite cables and they will still tell you thing that makes no sense...
You cannot fight people perception about this kind of stuff, invent a useless new tech and a new word and the crowd will hype it.
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Old 2013-02-21, 14:18   Link #191
Tong
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
And 4K is meh, while it'd be good for projectors, for TV it's pointless. The vast majority of people will not have a TV of sufficient size to benefit from 4K. Just ask your friends and see what their wives think about them buying an 80"+ TV Not to mention how close one would have to sit to really tell the difference between 1080P and 4K, how many people want to sit 5 feet away from a 80" screen?
It's all about how many pixels you can fit in a single space. I kinda agree with this point when it comes to consoles, but on PC the difference is noticeable between 720p (1280x720) and 1080p (1920x1080).

But before 4K, I'd preffer my console games to run at 60fps on Full HD. It's REALLY weird how every game is rendered at different resolutions (Most are sub 720p) and TV Up/Downscalling just... screws with everthing
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Old 2013-02-21, 15:02   Link #192
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Ok, let's just clear something up.

The system WILL have a BluRay drive, Sony has oficially gone on record with the tech specs and a BluRay drive is listed:

Quote:
Main Processor
Single-chip custom processor
CPU: x86-64 AMD "Jaguar," 8 cores
GPU: 1.84 TFLOPS, AMD next-generation Radeon based graphics engine

Memory
GDDR5 8 GB

Hard Disk Drive
Built-in

Optical Drive (read-only)
BD 6xCAV
DVD 8xCAV


I/O
Super-Speed USB (USB 3.0) AUX
Communication Ethernet (10BASE-T, 100BASE-TX, 1000BASE-T)
IEEE 802.11b/g/n
Bluetooth 2.1 (EDR)

AV output
HDMI
Analog AV-out
Digital Output (optical)
Source: Polygon

As for the price I don't expect it to be particularly expensive. You can spec, as a consumer, a similar powered computer with off-the-shelf components for about 600 USD I reckon. Committing up front to large quantities of the components and custom building some of them coupled with the usual bulk pricing will surely cut around half of that price. If Sony takes a slight hit on profits for the first year or so it seems quite possible to get it out the door with a reasonable enough pricing scheme competitive with the Wii U and the inevitable next console from Microsoft (Durango).

Now to the bad news: Sony reps have been pretty reluctant talking about the used games situation so there's quite some cause for concern there.

Sony Worldwide Studios boss Shuhei Yoshida is quoted as saying, when asked specifically if the PS4 will play used games, “We have to really name our system and services for that, to be able to explain more about it".

That sounds to me like a clear indication that Sony is preparing some system to monetize second-hand sales. I don't have particular qualms with it since I buy most of my games new but I recognize the importance of the second-hand market to keep prices down.

Couple that with the current widespread usage of network passes on the Vita and I have every reason to be apprehensive regarding this particular issue.

Source: Penny Arcade Report

There's also another statement by a Sony exec stating, when questioned about the availability of current PSN-bought games on the service being playable on the PS4, that Sony has the ability to eventually offer that. That was all they said coupled with a following statement via twitter saying users to expect "PS1, PS2 and PS3 games to be playable via the PlayStation cloud service".

I'm not as apprehensive on this particular front because Sony hasn't been particularly user hostile with digital purchases in the past but as a owner of 3 portable Sony devices I can't say I was too thrilled to find out that the Vita counted towards the 2 device limit on games as a PSP (rendering one of my older machines unable to play PSN bought games).

Given all that I can make a few predictions:
  • I will probably get a PS4 eventually since Sony always manages to get some exclusives that buy me over.
  • I will most likely not buy the next generation XBox since Microsoft has mostly ignored the core gamer side of the equation and exclusives are hard to come by. Couple that with rumoured specs for Durango that seem like a perfect match for what Sony announced yesterday and you can almost guarantee most games to be virtually indistinguishable from their competitors right from the start.
  • This one is 100% sure: Steam and other PC retailers will be getting quite a good deal more of my money since pc-ports of console games will probably be of pretty amazing quality right from the start.

EDIT: Also, this just in - PS4 'doesn't support' current-gen DualShock 3 controller, does support PS Move
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Old 2013-02-21, 15:52   Link #193
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Originally Posted by Tong View Post
awesome.gif
Best thing I've seen in the last several months.

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Sony tells Eurogamer: PlayStation 4 will not block used games

Thank you based Kaz, Yosp and whoever else. Please for the love of everything keep this stance.

So where is that pre order button...
This and PS4 not being "always online" was they really needed to get me interested again. BTW, BC has been confirmed right?

I have no worries about the software being there since Sony usually good about that sort of thing (Vita's mishandling aside), but the biggest problem going from is what sent them into 3rd place this gen to begin with: "price point".

I think consumers sent a pretty clear message about $600 consoles here, "no".
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Old 2013-02-21, 15:55   Link #194
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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The historical observation, is that the most expensive console loses the console war. Having high specs is important, but there is a thresh hold after which increasing processing power no longer bring in sales, but instead price itself out of the market.

"We are the most powerful console!" is nice on paper, but that never translates to sales by itself.
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Old 2013-02-21, 16:06   Link #195
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Indeed, and seeing Sony willingly repeat the same mistakes with Vita that they did with PSP but worse, doesn't give me high hopes they've actually learned anything. The PS1 and PS2 were perfect when it came to balancing tech and sensible price for their time, so I'm not sure what happened this gen.
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Old 2013-02-21, 16:07   Link #196
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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
This and PS4 not being "always online" was they really needed to get me interested again. BTW, BC has been confirmed right?

I have no worries about the software being there since Sony usually good about that sort of thing (Vita's mishandling aside), but the biggest problem going from is what sent them into 3rd place this gen to begin with: "price point".

I think consumers sent a pretty clear message about $600 consoles here, "no".
"Not always online" is misleading. For one, it's up to developers. For another, they'll push hard to make you wish you were online all the time. As for BC, no, not directly. Gaikai will supposedly stream old games to your PS4, but how big that library will be, how well it will play, the costs (do you have to rebuy? most likely) are all up in the air. And forget about your current PSN games, none of those will transfer over.

Expect a paywall too, like Live. You'll be able to get online, do multiplayer, and probably have some of the share features too. But to get the fancier stuff, expect heavy pushing to get customers to buy into PS+, or whatever they'll call it. Don't expect it to be the value it is now.

As for the price point, the system is going to be 300 at a minimum, especially if it is launching this year. Those specs aren't cheap, even subsidized. Expect Sony to introduce, and MS to expand, contract based models to tempt people with poor financial judgement into long term monthly payments. 150 to buy the system, pay for years, company gets more than if you paid upfront. Upfront costs? I expect nothing less than 400, and more likely closer to 500. Sony can't afford to eat big losses on each console again, as the company is the brink of bankruptcy.

Also include the extra costs. Controllers and other accessories, the increased costs of games, etc. We're heading back to the era of 70 and 80 dollar gaming, sadly, for the big budget AAA stuff at least.

Buying a new system is going to be a big investment, no matter how you look at it.
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Old 2013-02-21, 17:04   Link #197
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The PS1 and PS2 were perfect when it came to balancing tech and sensible price for their time, so I'm not sure what happened this gen.
HD happened. Development costs skyrocketed.

Quote:
We're heading back to the era of 70 and 80 dollar gaming, sadly, for the big budget AAA stuff at least
Good thing Gamefly exists. I'm getting a lot of mileage out of that subscription.
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Old 2013-02-21, 17:06   Link #198
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Considering there's rarely any games for the ps3 as it is that requires online except for games like MAG which is primary online. I don't think we would have to worry too much about online connectivity to play our games.

But of course with a new system and new capabilities I could be wrong and developers are finding ways to make us go online.
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Old 2013-02-21, 17:57   Link #199
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In case anyone missed the conference yesterday here's the abridged version:

YouTube
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Spoiler for video:
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Old 2013-02-21, 18:41   Link #200
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I'm kinda confused about the HDD. If it's "built-in," can I still swap it out?
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