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Old 2013-02-21, 10:34   Link #61
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
i can say the same thing for a number of other characters in naruto, namely jiraiya. when we first saw him fight oro he could barely hold things together. he didn't even use sage mode even when tsunade and naruto were being dominated by kabuto. but several chapters later we see him using senjutsu in full strength against pain. now why didn't he use that badass ability against oro? my guess is kishi hadn't really figured out what sage mode was even though he already wrote that bit about jiraiya being a sage from the beginning.
i agree with what you said about madara and hashirama, but i'm not so sure about this jiraiya part. the point of that sannin battle was that none of them fought at full power. kishi purposely made him poisoned so that he couldn't use his best powers. like you said, he was a sage from the beginning and he was also involved with the toads from the beginning. i'm sure kishi added powers to him as the story progressed like i'm sure he does with every character who will fight down the road, but i don't think there's a way to know if he intended jiraiya to have sage powers from the getgo or not. something can be a retcon and still be planned form the start of the story. in hashirama's case, he was clearly not intended to be this powerful from the beginning of the story. at least not the way i see it
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Old 2013-02-21, 10:41   Link #62
GDB
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
i can say the same thing for a number of other characters in naruto, namely jiraiya. when we first saw him fight oro he could barely hold things together. he didn't even use sage mode even when tsunade and naruto were being dominated by kabuto. but several chapters later we see him using senjutsu in full strength against pain. now why didn't he use that badass ability against oro?
Hadn't Jiraiya been poisoned or something? Kind of hard to fight at full power when you're debilitated. In real world terms, we know Sage Mode hadn't been made yet. However, it isn't truly a retcon, since there's a valid in-story reason for it.
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Old 2013-02-21, 10:52   Link #63
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Hadn't Jiraiya been poisoned or something? Kind of hard to fight at full power when you're debilitated. In real world terms, we know Sage Mode hadn't been made yet. However, it isn't truly a retcon, since there's a valid in-story reason for it.
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i agree with what you said about madara and hashirama, but i'm not so sure about this jiraiya part. the point of that sannin battle was that none of them fought at full power. kishi purposely made him poisoned so that he couldn't use his best powers. like you said, he was a sage from the beginning and he was also involved with the toads from the beginning. i'm sure kishi added powers to him as the story progressed like i'm sure he does with every character who will fight down the road, but i don't think there's a way to know if he intended jiraiya to have sage powers from the getgo or not. something can be a retcon and still be planned form the start of the story. in hashirama's case, he was clearly not intended to be this powerful from the beginning of the story. at least not the way i see it
seems like a convenient reason for his lack of power, don't you think? poisoned or not, if sage mode had been invented already then he should've at least tried to use it but he didn't.

jiraiya always claimed to be a sage master, i believe he called himself gama sennin or frog sage, so i believe kishi had planned on using frogs to enhance jiraiya's abilities. he used to tell naruto that whenever naruto would call him ero-sennin. and later in the series sage masters were known to use sage mode like kabuto with his snake sage abilities. so why would jiraiya not have sage mode then? anyway, we're going off topic here. my point is, this sort of thing happens in naruto. retcon or not, there are some things that simply don't add up.
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Old 2013-02-21, 12:05   Link #64
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
seems like a convenient reason for his lack of power, don't you think? poisoned or not, if sage mode had been invented already then he should've at least tried to use it but he didn't.
He already couldn't control it well, such that he looked a quarter frog when he used it. So he's supposed to use it when he can barely stand due to chakra irregularity? Sounds like you wanted to turn him into a frog statue.

Plus, he didn't want Tsunade to see him that ugly. I agree that some (many) things in Naruto don't add up when you look back, but this isn't really one of them.
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Old 2013-02-21, 12:08   Link #65
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And yet Jinchuurikis are supposed to be WMD's. Especially Naruto with having the strongest beast of them all. Any way Deidara taking down a Jinchuuriki can also be seen as using smart tactics. We've hardly seen any of the Jinchuuriki Akatsuki fights so we can only speculate.
That doesn't mean they're invincible. The point still stands that Jinchuriki's have been known to be defeated by other intelligent and powerful ninjas since part I. Theres nothing to speculate.

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But besides that most people under Akatsuki are Kage level fighters, so them being that strong isn't that weird.
Yet you find it “weird” that a legendary Kage happens to be more powerful than Naruto, a jinchuriki.

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However about the current Naruto being so grossly underpowered compared to Hashirama and Madara (flashback versions) is just retarded. Where do they get the chakra from? The chakra the beasts have was a supposed balancing thing with the rest of the world. Yet here's a kid who controls the strongest of those beasts (yes at half the power) outmatched by people who lived almost a hundred years ago without them.
Okay, so this is all really just about you being disgruntled that your favorite character's power doesn't dwarf everyone else in the mangas history. I think its a pretty silly thing to be complaining about considering these are supposed to be legendary characters.

I don't see the big deal about the author's direction with Hashirama. In the begining, we knew nearly nothing about him, until the author gradually started revealing more details, such as him being strong enough to even control/subdue bijuu, and this was hundreds of chapters ago. I don't remember reading any complaints then, but now that he's shown fighting at a higher level than Naruto after all the crazy power-ups Naruto recieveed, suddenly people have an issue with it.
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Old 2013-02-21, 12:22   Link #66
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Originally Posted by Artful Dodger View Post
That doesn't mean they're invincible. The point still stands that Jinchuriki's have been known to be defeated by other intelligent and powerful ninjas since part I. Theres nothing to speculate.



Yet you find it “weird” that a legendary Kage happens to be more powerful than Naruto, a jinchuriki.



Okay, so this is all really just about you being disgruntled that your favorite character's power doesn't dwarf everyone else in the manga. I think its a pretty silly thing to be complaining about considering these are supposed to be legendary characters.
In sheer strength they should never be outclassed by any opponent (how could they with having access to bijou chakra) . Yet here we are with Naruto who can't hold a candle to them.

Yes especially considering Naruto is half Uzumaki and has this sixth paths cloak like thingy when he uses the Kyuubi chakra. He only needs the Rinnegan and he's the sage of the sixth paths reincarnated.

I don't consider Naruto my favorite character, that would probably be Itachi.
I'm disgruntled with the recent increase in retarded power levels and the complete lack of tactics with sole focus on bigger and prettier explosion. And to add insult to injury they are created by characters that are technically dead making this whole new generation thing nothing but a sham. That's my beef
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Old 2013-02-21, 12:50   Link #67
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Originally Posted by Artful Dodger View Post
I don't see the big deal about the author's direction with Hashirama. In the begining, we knew nearly nothing about him, until the author gradually started revealing more details, such as him being strong enough to even control/subdue bijuu, and this was hundreds of chapters ago. I don't remember reading any complaints then, but now that he's shown fighting at a higher level than Naruto after all the crazy power-ups Naruto recieveed, suddenly people have an issue with it.
While I am not to bothered with it either, I would like to point out that it has less to do with the fact that Naruto may or may not be someone's "Favored Character" and more with the fact that his name is in the title.
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Old 2013-02-21, 13:07   Link #68
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Originally Posted by mrShady View Post
I'm disgruntled with the recent increase in retarded power levels and the complete lack of tactics with sole focus on bigger and prettier explosion
Where exactly do you get this from? It's not as if tactics have totally disappeared from the manga just because the power scale got bigger. Naruto vs Third Raikage, Gaara vs Second Raikage, Guy, Naruto, Bee and Kakashi vs Madara, Obito and Ten-Tails, there were some great tactics there.

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And to add insult to injury they are created by characters that are technically dead making this whole new generation thing nothing but a sham. That's my beef
Again, where do you get this from? Naruto has already surpassed Kakashi and Jiraiya in strength, so it can't be a sham. Plus, just because he's not as strong as Hashirama yet doesn't mean he never will be.

In any case, I never thought the whole "new generation surpasses the old" was based solely on strength. It's like in RL, a guy with a low income job works his ass off so his son can go to college, get a good job, and his grandkids can have the kind of oppurtunities he and his son never had.
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Old 2013-02-21, 13:16   Link #69
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Originally Posted by mrShady View Post
In sheer strength they should never be outclassed by any opponent (how could they with having access to bijou chakra) . Yet here we are with Naruto who can't hold a candle to them.
Um just an FYI, Madara is actually using a bijuu, and Hashirama seems to be accessing natures chakra.

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Yes especially considering Naruto is half Uzumaki and has this sixth paths cloak like thingy when he uses the Kyuubi chakra. He only needs the Rinnegan and he's the sage of the sixth paths reincarnated.
Since when did being half Uzumaki automatically mean you were the best shinobi of all time? Why should being half Uzumaki mean you are more powerful than Madara or Hashirama? And you know, thats another thing... Naruto's lineage and clan powers are another element that seemed to be retconned into the story as time went on, effectively contradicting the manga's apparent original message of hard work/dedication vs. being gifted.

Yet, I'm sure you had no problem with that particular retcon. What exactly does “strong life force and chakra” even mean? Most likely an intentionally vague description to explain away unbelievable feats and contrived powerups later on.

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I don't consider Naruto my favorite character, that would probably be Itachi.
I'm disgruntled with the recent increase in retarded power levels and the complete lack of tactics with sole focus on bigger and prettier explosion. And to add insult to injury they are created by characters that are technically dead making this whole new generation thing nothing but a sham. That's my beef
Thats strange, I've never read you complain about Naruto's “retarded power levels”. You seem to only complain about someone being overpowered if they're stronger than Naruto. As for the generation, I don't think its fair to say that based on two ninja's who are clearly extreme outliers.

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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
While I am not to bothered with it either, I would like to point out that it has less to do with the fact that Naruto may or may not be someone's "Favored Character" and more with the fact that his name is in the title.
This sounds pretty ridiculous. Having a character's name in the title doesn't necessarily mean they have to be the absolute strongest there ever was and ever will be. There are plenty of manga that can serve as examples.
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Old 2013-02-21, 13:52   Link #70
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Old 2013-02-21, 14:07   Link #71
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a flashback IN my flashback?!
I hate when a flashback is written in such a fashion. Supposedly, Hashirama is telling all of this to Sasuke, so not only does it make no sense to start with the final conflict between Madara and Hashirama only to then cut to their first meeting. It makes no sense from a structural standpoint, which is whatever, but it is especially annoying specifically because Hashirama is supposedly telling his story to someone. Unless, Hashirama has gone senile, this flashback structure is simply annoying...
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Old 2013-02-21, 14:10   Link #72
mrShady
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Where exactly do you get this from? It's not as if tactics have totally disappeared from the manga just because the power scale got bigger. Naruto vs Third Raikage, Gaara vs Second Raikage, Guy, Naruto, Bee and Kakashi vs Madara, Obito and Ten-Tails, there were some great tactics there.



Again, where do you get this from? Naruto has already surpassed Kakashi and Jiraiya in strength, so it can't be a sham. Plus, just because he's not as strong as Hashirama yet doesn't mean he never will be.

In any case, I never thought the whole "new generation surpasses the old" was based solely on strength. It's like in RL, a guy with a low income job works his ass off so his son can go to college, get a good job, and his grandkids can have the kind of oppurtunities he and his son never had.
Madara, Obito and the ten tails have been beaten then? And any of the tactics proved successful?.... Yes my point exactly. It's the bigger stick thing ala spirit bomb. But yes the Mizukage and Raikage got defeated using tactics.

You do know Naruto is not nearly this strong without the kyuubi right? He can't do jackshit without this partner. Most of his current attacks are nothing more then a byproduct of the huge amount of chakra the kyuubi provides. So base Naruto is pretty pathetic when compared to Hashirama. Here we are in the final stages of a manga called Naruto with a main character being outclassed by relics of long ago.

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Originally Posted by Artful Dodger View Post
Um just an FYI, Madara is actually using a bijuu, and Hashirama seems to be accessing natures chakra.



Since when did being half Uzumaki automatically mean you were the best shinobi of all time? Why should being half Uzumaki mean you are more powerful than Madara or Hashirama? And you know, thats another thing... Naruto's lineage and clan powers are another element that seemed to be retconned into the story as time went on, effectively contradicting the manga's apparent original message of hard work/dedication vs. being gifted.

Yet, I'm sure you had no problem with that particular retcon. What exactly does “strong life force and chakra” even mean? Most likely an intentionally vague description to explain away unbelievable feats and contrived powerups later on.



Thats strange, I've never read you complain about Naruto's “retarded power levels”. You seem to only complain about someone being overpowered if they're stronger than Naruto. As for the generation, I don't think its fair to say that based on two ninja's who are clearly extreme outliers.



This sounds pretty ridiculous. Having a character's name in the title doesn't necessarily mean they have to be the absolute strongest there ever was and ever will be. There are plenty of manga that can serve as examples.
And Naruto has both at his command.... I'm not saying that having the Kyuubi do your bidding isn't a huge power advantage in a fight but I had always believed Hashirama didn't overpower the Kyuubi but used his Bijou suppressing wood element to take it out of the fight.... I was naive in believing that I'll admit.

Naruto being half Uzumaki should mean he has crazy chakra for himself. And even though it's mentioned he has a lot Hashirama still dwarfs him.
Besides my point was that he looks an awful lot like the sage of the six paths except for the eyes. So yes him being half Uzumaki and being the Kyuubi's Jinchuuriki should make him close to the best "shinobi" of all time.

And yes this whole "it was actually his destiny thingy" was retconned, so? This happened ages ago, why should I mention my dislike about that now? Don't make baseless assumptions.

Naruto is what the manga is called thus having this character who has the strongest tailed beast locked inside him do ridiculously OP stuff is what a shounen manga is all about. I though it would happen the moment he used the Kyuubi's chakra. It was always sort of foreshadowed. The power of Hashirama was not and seems like an asspull from kishi who wrote himself stuck with the god like Madara.
The sad side effect is that Naruto has to either become even more powerful or be forever outclassed by those old ninja's.
Just because I don't mind shounen power ups shouldn't mean it has to go post cell saga dbz ridiculousness. In my opinion Kishi has gone over the limit with the powers and it's affecting the story in a bad way.
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Old 2013-02-21, 14:21   Link #73
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Madara, Obito and the ten tails have been beaten then? And any of the tactics proved successful?.... Yes my point exactly.
So tactics are only tactics if they work?

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It'sthe bigger stick thing ala spirit bomb. But yes the Mizukage and Raikage got defeated using tactics.
So you admit what you said before was rubbish, then?

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You do know Naruto is not nearly this strong without the kyuubi right? He can't do jackshit without this partner.
That's... quite an exaggeration. Naruto already surpassed Kakashi and Jiraiya without the Kyuubi. Hell, if he really couldn't do anything without the Kyuubi, the Kyuubi itself would have killed him during his training with Bee.

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Most of his current attacks are nothing more then a byproduct of the huge amount of chakra the kyuubi provides. So base Naruto is pretty pathetic when compared to Hashirama. Here we are in the final stages of a manga called Naruto with a main character being outclassed by relics of long ago.
I might say the same of Hashirama with his Senju body and Mokuton powers. And as I said, wait till the manga is actually done before making complaints like that.
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Old 2013-02-21, 14:29   Link #74
itachi-san314
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You do know Naruto is not nearly this strong without the kyuubi right? He can't do jackshit without this partner.
i wouldnt say that at all. dont forget about sage mode. he's much more powerful in sage mode than jiraiya was and it has nothing to do with the kyuubi. sage mode puts him at at least kage level i'd say. and then kyuubi mode puts him over the top, but without the kyuubi he's still extremely strong
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Old 2013-02-21, 15:36   Link #75
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So tactics are only tactics if they work?



So you admit what you said before was rubbish, then?
If you want to claim that attack by the shinobi alliance a tactic be my guest.
It looked a lot more like that dbz spirit bomb cheesiness.
But I will agree that they did use tactics earlier in the war, however whenever a tactic is used now it just get's overpowered by some form of strength making it nothing more then a useless gesture leading to nothing. Making tactics useless though they used to be turning points earlier in the manga is just downgrading the story.

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That's... quite an exaggeration. Naruto already surpassed Kakashi and Jiraiya without the Kyuubi. Hell, if he really couldn't do anything without the Kyuubi, the Kyuubi itself would have killed him during his training with Bee.



I might say the same of Hashirama with his Senju body and Mokuton powers. And as I said, wait till the manga is actually done before making complaints like that.
The point I was trying to make was that Hashirama without his sage mode looks a lot more powerful then Naruto without the Kyuubi. Even though they shouldn't be that different. If Naruto really is going to be the savior of this world like the sage of the six paths envisioned then why does he look so weak compared to Hashirama.

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i wouldnt say that at all. dont forget about sage mode. he's much more powerful in sage mode than jiraiya was and it has nothing to do with the kyuubi. sage mode puts him at at least kage level i'd say. and then kyuubi mode puts him over the top, but without the kyuubi he's still extremely strong
I sort of addressed this above, but my main issue is with what Naruto is supposed to be and that without yet another power up he can't live up to it.
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Old 2013-02-21, 15:47   Link #76
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i wouldnt say that at all. dont forget about sage mode. he's much more powerful in sage mode than jiraiya was and it has nothing to do with the kyuubi. sage mode puts him at at least kage level i'd say. and then kyuubi mode puts him over the top, but without the kyuubi he's still extremely strong
To add a little to this: Before he became all buddy-buddy with Kurama, no wait, before he subdued the nine-tails and gained his Chakra Mode, Naruto was actually at a disadvantage because of the Nine-Tails.
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Old 2013-02-21, 15:54   Link #77
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Naruto being half Uzumaki should mean he has crazy chakra for himself. And even though it's mentioned he has a lot Hashirama still dwarfs him.
Actually, Naruto's large chakra resevoir is really due to the Kyuubi's chakra seeping into his for so many years.

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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
To add a little to this: Before he became all buddy-buddy with Kurama, no wait, before he subdued the nine-tails and gained his Chakra Mode, Naruto was actually at a disadvantage because of the Nine-Tails.
He did have minor difficulties with a few things, but the benifits far outweighed the disadvantages. Besides saving his life countless times, having the kyuubi allows Naruto to spam his kage bushins the way he does, which has been the foundation of many of his powerups such as the rasengan, creating the FRS, learning nature manipulation, etc.

Last edited by Midnight Commander; 2013-02-21 at 16:06.
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Old 2013-02-21, 16:03   Link #78
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Actually, right from the very beginning I was always like "Naruto's natural chakra supply must be huge if he didn't have the Nine-Tails sucking it away all the time." Later in the story I was proven correct about it.
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Old 2013-02-21, 16:10   Link #79
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Originally Posted by mrShady View Post
Naruto is what the manga is called thus having this character who has the strongest tailed beast locked inside him do ridiculously OP stuff is what a shounen manga is all about.
I had several lines breaking down why your arguments don't make sense, but after reading this statement I just stopped bothering. If this is actually the basis of your position, theres no need to continue as this explains it all, and proven my suspicion true. You're clearly just biased towards Naruto, and consequently you're creating a huge double standard.

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Naruto was actually at a disadvantage because of the Nine-Tails.
Man, you come straight out of a comic book.

Last edited by Artful Dodger; 2013-02-21 at 16:20.
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Old 2013-02-21, 16:14   Link #80
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Actually, Naruto's large chakra resevoir is really due to the Kyuubi's chakra seeping into his for so many years.
Not necessarily. Other Uzumaki seem to have staggering amounts of chakra, so much so that Nagato can seemingly destroy villages multiple times over then resurrect everyone he killed before running out of chakra and Kushina can bind the Kyuubi even though she was dying (though, the extent of chakra required for such a technique is unknown).

Naruto's chakra reservoir is influenced greatly by the Kyuubi, but he would have undoubtedly been a chakra powerhouse even without the Kyuubi.
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