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Old 2013-02-21, 16:19   Link #81
mrShady
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Originally Posted by Artful Dodger View Post
I had several lines breaking down why your arguments don't make sense, but after reading this statement I just stopped bothering. If this is actually the basis of your position, theres no need to continue as this explains it all, and proven my suspicion true. You're clearly just biased towards Naruto, and consequently you're creating a huge double standard.
You're annoying and are just ignoring everything else I said.
Here's the short version:
Naruto is the next shinobi god.

The first sage predicted this and the tailed beasts acknowledged it.

So yes I expect the main character of the story to be this OP, however making both Hashirama and Madara that powerful in the flashback ruins Naruto's position as the next shinobi god.
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Old 2013-02-21, 17:09   Link #82
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You know, simply asserting it doesn't mean it's true.

I mean, in the text itself, Hashirama has actually been called the "god of shinobi", something nobody has said about Naruto (not even the tailed beasts). Naruto is just the savior of the shinobi.
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Old 2013-02-21, 17:14   Link #83
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
You know, simply asserting it doesn't mean it's true.

I mean, in the text itself, Hashirama has actually been called the "god of shinobi", something nobody has said about Naruto (not even the tailed beasts). Naruto is just the savior of the shinobi.
it was said about hiruzen though, which was implying that each generation was better than their predecessors. then when hiruzen beat hashirama, tobirama and orochimaru it was further confirmation of how awesome he was. now hashirama is the god of shinobi and hiruzen is reduced to average kage level just above tsunade but probably below tobirama also when all is said and done here.
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Old 2013-02-21, 17:27   Link #84
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
it was said about hiruzen though, which was implying that each generation was better than their predecessors. then when hiruzen beat hashirama, tobirama and orochimaru it was further confirmation of how awesome he was. now hashirama is the god of shinobi and hiruzen is reduced to average kage level just above tsunade but probably below tobirama also when all is said and done here.
Maybe the title is just something assigned during each generation. Hashirama was the "god" of his time, Hiruzen the "god" of his, and maybe Naruto will be the "god" of the current time. (In many respects, Sarutobi seems more like the real deal since he didn't have any fancy bloodlines or Jinchuuriki power-ups or Sage relations to boost his abilities.) It does mess up the whole 'each generation stronger than the last' thingy, but everything in the series does that anyway so I see no reason why it should it matter anymore (or even be brought up in discussions considering how often it has been ignored or disproven).
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Old 2013-02-21, 17:53   Link #85
Dengar
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Originally Posted by Artful Dodger View Post
Man, you come straight out of a comic book.
Mind explaining to me how I wronged you so badly that I deserved that? Seriously, it's insulting on so many levels.


Or did you actually just run out of good arguments so you've resorted to insults out of frustration? Or maybe you're hoping insulting me proves your point better?
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Old 2013-02-21, 19:00   Link #86
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by Captain Commando View Post
Actually, Naruto's large chakra resevoir is really due to the Kyuubi's chakra seeping into his for so many years.
That might have been an initial explanation in the manga, i don't remember if it was. But then it became clear that he himself must have a large amount of chakra. Not only because the Uzumaki clan members are special when it comes to chakra but more importantly because both using kyuubi chakra and natural chakra means that there must be some sort of balance between his own and the other chakra, as explained by the manga. So in order to have that balance he must have a large amount himself.

But of course these things really are not consistent, it's always as the plot requires, so for example Gaara didn't lose his power to control huge quantities of sand despite he lost Shukaku. Then there's the strange thing that Naruto is not like the other tailed beast hosts, he doesn't transform into the kyuubi or anything like that, he's special, he even has the necklace of the sage of 6 paths when he uses the kyuubi's chakra. So Kishimoto could come up with something that explains that it's not that Naruto has huge amounts of chakra but it's about him having a very special chakra that others don't have.
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Old 2013-02-21, 19:02   Link #87
Artful Dodger
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Originally Posted by mrShady View Post
You're annoying and are just ignoring everything else I said.
Here's the short version:
Naruto is the next shinobi god.

The first sage predicted this and the tailed beasts acknowledged it.

So yes I expect the main character of the story to be this OP, however making both Hashirama and Madara that powerful in the flashback ruins Naruto's position as the next shinobi god.
Um, this boils down to nearly the same thing as the quote I copied in my last post... You believe this, a shounen manga should be about Naruto having the most powerful bijuu and doing ridiculously "OP stuff", in other words, being the next shinobi god.

By "shinobi god", Ill assume you mean the next sage/prophesied one. Well, in my opinion legendary characters being this powerful doesn't ruin Naruto reaching that level. For one, they're both dead. Secondly, at his current level, he is practically already a god among the living considering what he's been doing, and has accomplished in the war, not to mention his young age and the fact that he's only using half of the kyuubi chakra. We already know he'll get stronger considering all the hints given.

He's arguably made more of an impact on the war than the entire alliance; I'm just amazed that anyone can still be unsatisfied just because of these two characters. The entire war arc turned out to be a huge Naruto fanservice/powerup fest. Its not like this is Sasuke, or any of his peers, this is Hashirama and Madara; they've been praised since the beginning of the manga, so I disagree, I simply don't find their abilities or level of power to be an issue.

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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Mind explaining to me how I wronged you so badly that I deserved that? Seriously, it's insulting on so many levels.

Or did you actually just run out of good arguments so you've resorted to insults out of frustration? Or maybe you're hoping insulting me proves your point better?
lol thats just a quote from Jim Kelly / Bushido Brown. I guess you're not familiar with the cartoon or Enter the dragon movie; you'd realize I was just joking around and didn't mean it as an actual insult, you're literally making me laugh out loud that you took it so offensive. I just meant to say that I disagree with your statement in a playful way, but nvm though. You not knowing the reference makes me feel old :P

http://youtu.be/Rdof-S7iUX4?t=18s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Nvdh0FMzr0

Im kind of suprised you took it so seriously, even as an insult it sounds pretty old and outdated lol

Last edited by Artful Dodger; 2013-02-21 at 19:47.
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Old 2013-02-21, 19:13   Link #88
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Originally Posted by mrShady View Post
If you want to claim that attack by the shinobi alliance a tactic be my guest.
It looked a lot more like that dbz spirit bomb cheesiness.
I never mentioned that, but just out of curiousity, what do you consider a tactic then?

Quote:
But I will agree that they did use tactics earlier in the war, however whenever a tactic is used now it just get's overpowered by some form of strength making it nothing more then a useless gesture leading to nothing. Making tactics useless though they used to be turning points earlier in the manga is just downgrading the story.
Maybe you need to reread the manga or something. In the end, no matter how clever the tactic is, stuff like brute strength and the like also play a part, and always have. Shikamaru vs Temari and Shikamaru vs Tayuya are excellent examples.

Quote:
The point I was trying to make was that Hashirama without his sage mode looks a lot more powerful then Naruto without the Kyuubi. Even though they shouldn't be that different. If Naruto really is going to be the savior of this world like the sage of the six paths envisioned then why does he look so weak compared to Hashirama.
Again, how about you wait for the manga to be competed before saying stuff like that? In any case, Naruto is much younger than Hashirama, so it's not really a fair comparison.
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Old 2013-02-21, 19:23   Link #89
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Maybe the title is just something assigned during each generation. Hashirama was the "god" of his time, Hiruzen the "god" of his, and maybe Naruto will be the "god" of the current time. (In many respects, Sarutobi seems more like the real deal since he didn't have any fancy bloodlines or Jinchuuriki power-ups or Sage relations to boost his abilities.) It does mess up the whole 'each generation stronger than the last' thingy, but everything in the series does that anyway so I see no reason why it should it matter anymore (or even be brought up in discussions considering how often it has been ignored or disproven).
i doubt the 'god of shinobi' thing is generational, since suigetsu only recognized hashirama as the god of shinobi. he wasn't like "2 (or 3 counting minato) gods of shinobi in one place!"

i do totally agree that sarutobi was the real deal as far as a pure ninja goes. i actually like that better than all these powerups. i dont hate the powerups, but i prefered the series up until hidan, susano'o and pain when the 'realism' of these ninjas went out the window. not that it was ever real, but it felt more 'real' in the world kishi created than these new god-level powers. i prefer characters like hiruzen and kakashi as far as abilities go

the only reason i was talking about the generational foul up was because of the relevance to hashirama who is in the spot light right now. it has been broken for a long time, but seeing hashirama's god-level power just brings it all back to me
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Old 2013-02-21, 19:23   Link #90
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
In any case, Naruto is much younger than Hashirama, so it's not really a fair comparison.
Right. With all that Naruto has accomplished at this point, and sitting through a never ending fanservice/powerfup fest, it sounds pretty ridiculous to still read those types of complaints.
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Old 2013-02-21, 19:54   Link #91
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pure unadulterated speculation, but what if eliminating the name of 'senju' was part of a truce the village reached with the uchiha after hiruzen took over as hokage. it would explain why even tsunade doesn't bare the name senju
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Old 2013-02-21, 20:32   Link #92
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
That might have been an initial explanation in the manga, i don't remember if it was. But then it became clear that he himself must have a large amount of chakra. Not only because the Uzumaki clan members are special when it comes to chakra but more importantly because both using kyuubi chakra and natural chakra means that there must be some sort of balance between his own and the other chakra, as explained by the manga. So in order to have that balance he must have a large amount himself.

But of course these things really are not consistent, it's always as the plot requires, so for example Gaara didn't lose his power to control huge quantities of sand despite he lost Shukaku. Then there's the strange thing that Naruto is not like the other tailed beast hosts, he doesn't transform into the kyuubi or anything like that, he's special, he even has the necklace of the sage of 6 paths when he uses the kyuubi's chakra. So Kishimoto could come up with something that explains that it's not that Naruto has huge amounts of chakra but it's about him having a very special chakra that others don't have.
I don't remember reading the manga explicitly state that the amount of chakra Naruto has is because of him being partly Uzumaki; though I do remember the sudden plot development of the Uzumaki being an elite clan that has “special” chakra and strong “life force”, whatever that will mean in the future. I also remember Kakashi stating that Naruto had at least twice as much chakra as he did, and using the nine tails around 100 times more, though this likely changed due to Naruto's newly added clan lineage.

Anyway its pretty clear that the author decided to change a few things around throughout all these years. Naruto's now prestigeous lineage and origin for example was likely a newly added plot device, otherwise I don't see why the village didn't treat the 4th Hokage's son as royalty, with all things considered. By extension, he wouldn't be considered much of an underdog, and would likely have a very different relationship with team 7 and the rest of his peers.
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Old 2013-02-21, 20:54   Link #93
Ero-Senn1n
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Anyway its pretty clear that the author decided to change a few things around throughout all these years. Naruto's now prestigeous lineage and origin for example was likely a newly added plot device, otherwise I don't see why the village didn't treat the 4th Hokage's son as royalty, with all things considered. By extension, he wouldn't be an underdog, probably wouldn't exhibit his clownish behavior, and would likely have a very different relationship with team 7 and the rest of his peers.
I don't think that he didn't plan on Naruto being special. Of course it was done in a somewhat stupid way. In the beginning him being an "underdog" was clearly the plan, having introduced the genius rival and the smart girl, all that was very similar to many other stories that we read and liked in the past. The story of the "underdog" who in the end becomes stronger/better than anyone was always very popular. Of course we didn't expect that his father is the 4th and that the Uzumaki is a great clan, simply because it seemed too unrealistic. But it was obvious that in case of such a looooong story there will have to be some revelation about him being "special" in some way, for example coming from a legendary clan that we never heard of (Uzumaki being a fake name). In such long running stories the authors simply run out of ideas and they have to continuously come up with new ideas, so they borrow the usual cliche stuff. In DBZ it turns out that Goku is from a special warrior race, in One Piece the main hero is related to the pirate king, and i guess in Bleach there's also something special about the hero (i stopped reading it a long time ago, but if i remember correctly his parents were unknown).
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Old 2013-02-21, 20:59   Link #94
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Since there was no ninja academy or villages for that matter, I am curious to know how the clans lived. I imagine hashirama lived a monastery type life like the avatar; trained daily in the special art of yin yang chakra. Perhaps he is a sage but maybe his clan has a very close relationship with a deity of some sort. I don't know much about it but there seems to be quite the influence of Shinto in the manga...
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Old 2013-02-21, 22:34   Link #95
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Of course we didn't expect that his father is the 4th and that the Uzumaki is a great clan, simply because it seemed too unrealistic. But it was obvious that in case of such a looooong story there will have to be some revelation about him being "special" in some way, for example coming from a legendary clan that we never heard of (Uzumaki being a fake name).
I pinned the 4th as Naruto's father from as early as Chapter 1.
There were far too many things right off that pointed to this as a fact.

1) The 4th was called a great ninja, and the position of Hokage was made out to be a great man as well. Such a person wouldn't likely take some random child and curse him by sealing a demon inside. Therefore, it only went to follow that Naruto HAD to be the child of the 4th. The story behind it wasn't clear, but that part was.

2) The similarity in appearance between Naruto and the 4th was a bit too uncanny. Sure, Deva Pain (Yahiko) is a dead ringer for Naruto, but that was probably done to make people believe the 4th might somehow still be alive. Seriously, there were rumors for years that Pain was Naruto's father.

3) No one in the village knew who Naruto's parents were (except the Sannin, the 4rd, and maybe the council). No one even mentions his possible family. That means someone covered up his family history. But why? It can't be his last name. He's an Uzumaki, and apparently half the world knows they're a prestigious clan. If they wanted to hide that part of his lineage, he'd have a different clan name. No, they wanted to hide that the 4th Hokage was his father.

Points 1 and 2, led me to believe it as early as chapter 1, but I was certain by the Chuunin exams when his parentage STILL hadn't been brought up. I'm also fairly sure that I'm not the only one who thought that from the start either.

The Uzumaki thing, them being so prestigious, That I never would have expected, and that seems to be a bit of a retcon to me. On the other hand, Naruto still has no real clue about how prestigious his heritage is. Sure, he's aware that the 4th was his old man, but he still doesn't get that the Uzumaki are special.
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Old 2013-02-21, 22:42   Link #96
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The way I understood it, the original seal system that kept Kurama locked allowed tiny portions of his chakra to seep into Naruto's own reservoir, even when he wasn't drawing upon it, thus slowly expanding his supply.

Then it was revealed that the chakra that Kurama has is downright poisonous to anyone who doesn't have the body of a physical god and the potent chakra to filter it for use. That's when it was revealed that the Uzumaki are distant relatives to the Senju who themselves are descended of the Sage's Son with the strongest body. Naruto being able to withstand 4, 6 and even an 8-tailed transformation with little consequence is proof of that. It is even further driven home by Kushina, who not only lived (for a while at least) after Kurama was extracted but was also capable of casting a potent restraining jutsu afterwards.

The way I see it, this was kind of like taking a half-full bucket of water and sealing it into an airtight, impregnable safe, with only a small hose that periodically allowed for droplets of water to fall into the bucket inside from a nearby ocean. It wasn't much, but over time that bucket began to overflow and is currently filling the safe to the brim.
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Old 2013-02-22, 00:22   Link #97
james0246
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Originally Posted by Captain Commando View Post
Anyway its pretty clear that the author decided to change a few things around throughout all these years. Naruto's now prestigeous lineage and origin for example was likely a newly added plot device, otherwise I don't see why the village didn't treat the 4th Hokage's son as royalty, with all things considered. By extension, he wouldn't be considered much of an underdog, and would likely have a very different relationship with team 7 and the rest of his peers.
It's kind of hard to be considered an underdog when the second most powerful creature in existence (after the Jyuubi) is stored away in your tummy. No, Naruto has never been an underdog. Stupid, yes. But, never an underdog. (The whole underdog theme was more of Lee's schtick (maybe Hinata's as well?), and since he never really mattered the theme also never really mattered.)
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Old 2013-02-22, 01:54   Link #98
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^naruto was the ultimate underdog for a while. sure, the kyuubi was in him, but its use during the haku and zabuza arc wasn't naruto, it was the kyuubi taking him over like an evil spirit possessing a young child. and from then on it was a demon we saw in his mind who was always threatening him. naruto was always being put down by everyone around him, even the kyuubi. he had no friends and was always thought to be a loser who wouldn't win in any of his fights like vs kiba and neji. only after he beat gaara did the village start to treat him as more of a comrade and his underdogness vanished rather quickly into feats of kage-level strength
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Old 2013-02-22, 02:05   Link #99
mrShady
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Originally Posted by Artful Dodger View Post
Um, this boils down to nearly the same thing as the quote I copied in my last post... You believe this, a shounen manga should be about Naruto having the most powerful bijuu and doing ridiculously "OP stuff", in other words, being the next shinobi god.

By "shinobi god", Ill assume you mean the next sage/prophesied one. Well, in my opinion legendary characters being this powerful doesn't ruin Naruto reaching that level. For one, they're both dead. Secondly, at his current level, he is practically already a god among the living considering what he's been doing, and has accomplished in the war, not to mention his young age and the fact that he's only using half of the kyuubi chakra. We already know he'll get stronger considering all the hints given.

He's arguably made more of an impact on the war than the entire alliance; I'm just amazed that anyone can still be unsatisfied just because of these two characters. The entire war arc turned out to be a huge Naruto fanservice/powerup fest. Its not like this is Sasuke, or any of his peers, this is Hashirama and Madara; they've been praised since the beginning of the manga, so I disagree, I simply don't find their abilities or level of power to be an issue.
Let's agree to disagree I don't think either of us is ever going to change his opinion.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
I never mentioned that, but just out of curiousity, what do you consider a tactic then?



Maybe you need to reread the manga or something. In the end, no matter how clever the tactic is, stuff like brute strength and the like also play a part, and always have. Shikamaru vs Temari and Shikamaru vs Tayuya are excellent examples.



Again, how about you wait for the manga to be competed before saying stuff like that? In any case, Naruto is much younger than Hashirama, so it's not really a fair comparison.
Like I said there's a sharp decrease in how much of an effect tactics have in the recent fights and I consider it a step back in story telling.

So you're saying that Naruto in sage mode without the Kyuubi will get to be just as strong as flashback Hashirama?
Now do you see my point. It's lame that these dead guys are this powerful, it really wasn't necessary.
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Old 2013-02-22, 02:11   Link #100
Endscape
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Right. With all that Naruto has accomplished at this point, and sitting through a never ending fanservice/powerfup fest, it sounds pretty ridiculous to still read those types of complaints.
Why? It's true that Naruto has accomplished a lot at a young age, but that doesn't change the fact that Hashirama is just as much of an extreme outlier as Naruto, and that Naruto is still really young.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
It's kind of hard to be considered an underdog when the second most powerful creature in existence (after the Jyuubi) is stored away in your tummy. No, Naruto has never been an underdog. Stupid, yes. But, never an underdog. (The whole underdog theme was more of Lee's schtick (maybe Hinata's as well?), and since he never really mattered the theme also never really mattered.)
Lee graduated the Academy on just taijutsu, became an apprentice of the best taijutsu user in the village and was talented enough to master the Lotus at a really young age with only a year of training (something that prompted Kakashi to call him a genius). Sure he's disadvantaged in some ways, but the only place that he's an underdog is in his rivalry with Negi. You're right about Hinata though.
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Last edited by Endscape; 2013-02-22 at 02:33.
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