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Old 2013-02-19, 05:33   Link #31921
GoldenLand
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If there was a real non-Yasu person with the servant name of Shannon at some point, it might be the case that only she and the other servants around the same time as her would know it. This might have reached the media on Rokkenjima Prime, or might not. The Anges we saw never mentioned it, but then, there must have been a lot of extremely relevant information that Ange must have and yet we never saw. Such as about whether Kanon was ever seen off the island.

The stories themselves (and presumably the message bottles too) don't really go in for much by way of physical descriptions of the characters, so there's no real way to check to see if the "real" Yasu-Shannon looked more like Kanon or Shannon. There isn't actually any reason to suppose that she looked more like the pictures we were shown of Shannon than those of Kanon. But I'm pretty sure that her real appearance won't have been a blonde as in the manga version of her, or had any obvious Italian visual characteristics, although she may well have had long hair.

I think her real appearance could depend a lot on whether Kanon was ever a person she acted out for long. If she never did dress up as Kanon (except maybe at Jessica's school festival? or during the 1985 conference to fool Battler) and try to fool the people living permanently on Rokkenjima, then she could easily have a Kanon haircut as her normal one.

Come to think of it...assuming she really did go to the festival, even if Yasu was no longer going to school at the time of the last conference or so, wouldn't there be a really high chance of people she used to go to school with being students at Jessica's school? If she went along to the festival, going in a disguise other than "ordinary Yasu-Shannon but with no fake boobs and wearing a big coat" would be a good idea, if only to spare Jessica's pride. Because really, why would Jessica invite so much ridicule upon herself as to risk people going "Oh hey, Sayo, it's been ages" to the person introduced as Jessica's boyfriend? Going by that, presumably however the Kanon who went to the festival looked is not the most like her usual appearance.

Last edited by GoldenLand; 2013-02-19 at 11:24. Reason: corrected name
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Old 2013-02-19, 09:18   Link #31922
Renall
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There's probably only so many ways you can turn things into servant names in the peculiar manner they do on Rokkenjima. Why couldn't there have been multiple Shannons?

I mean at worst you'd have people who would go "Oh, yeah, there was a Shannon... but that was when I worked there in the 1970s, this must have been a different Shannon." This would be easily backed up by the fact that, you know, Model-Shannon would still be alive somewhere. However, I don't think that would be taken as "proof" that the Shannon of 1986 didn't exist or anything; they'd just assume there was a different person who happened to have that servant name. It can't be that uncommon, especially if two servants working in different years were to have reasonably similar real names. It's not like they retire the names like sports jersey numbers.
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Old 2013-02-19, 13:28   Link #31923
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I doubt that a middle school or high school in Nijima would actually produce a year book in the early 1980's, but yes, there should at least be a commemoration photograph of the class at the very end of each year and it was a time where people actually would already take pictures on a daily basis.
I'm not a Japanese expert however the school owning a book with all the photo of the students for each year is something like a given in many anime/manga and they handle it like something that had started to be done by quite a lot of time.

Sort of like a record of the students in the school.

Though, of course, I don't know if it's a standard procedure.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Yet, what does that prove?
Merely that Shannon's look should have been known with a certain degree of precision since tehre were photo of her. Sure, she could have been wearing padded bras in the photo as well but her facial features should be the same.

Things are different for Kanon as we've no idea if there were pictures of him so to the people of Prime his look could have merely be what Jessica's classmates who saw him at the school celebration told the media.
As, interesting enough, Kanon is shown wearing a coat those collar partially covered his face it can be they didn't manage to take a good look at him.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
The only alive people who could have commented on the Shannon who was on Rokkenjima on October 4th and 5th 1986 are a mad woman who's stalked by paparazzi and an amnesiac with a head injury. The one would not comment on whether this was the Shannon from the stories, the other probably could not.
Well, in the beginning Eva wasn't mad or stalked by paparazzi. Also Shannon's classmates could comment about the picture if the news were to spread a picture that's different from the one of Shannon.
But I'm not sure what you mean.
The look of the Shannon in the forgeries was likely never that detailed. probably they contented themselve with saying she was a pretty yet a big clumsy girl whose breasts attracted Battler's interest.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Going by the story told in EP7, Shannon is exactly NOT who people saw her as. Shannon was a model servant who finished her chores and kept a smiling face, Yasu was too clumsy to even keep her own set of keys together. So Yasu became a witch and left to the golden land, but somebody needed to stay, because the person him/herself couldn't actually just go away and live there, this slot became filled with Shannon, the ideal servant.
The Shannon of Ep 7 in the beginning seems very much a fantasy creature. She's simply perfect and, although she talks with people they never answer her. If I'm not wrong she's also said to share her room with Yasu yet Yasu had the room all for herself... which means Shannon wasn't really counted like someone different by Yasu by the other servants.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
The problem is, Gohda likely knew from a certain point on and I wouldn't be surprised if Jessica knew as well and the truth we are supposed to draw from the stories is a lot more messed up than "ingenious disguise fooled everybody", yet Battler could have easily been tricked, as he only knew Kanon for 1 1/2 days at most (depending on wen Kanon 'vanished').
Jessica knowing the truth would create two possibilities:
- Jessica didn't love Kanon and it was all fantasy
- Jessica knew Shannon was Kanon but loved him/her all the same. Therefore likely Jessica believed Kanon to be a girl and wouldn't expect certain stuffs from him/her as Yasu instead seemed to dread

Gohda knowing the truth would create the following possibilities:
- Gohda would, for unknown reasons, hide the truth to Natsuhi, who's hiring him
- everyone on Rokkenjima is aware Shannon is Kanon, Natsuhi included but they had allowed Shannon to play crossdressing for years for unknwon reasons
- everyone minus Battler is aware that Shannon is Kanon but they're covering it up for unknown reasons

One of the above possibilities is, of course, possible (in fact my theory includes one of the above) but there's no proof beyond 'it's hard to think they didn't notice'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
The stories themselves (and presumably the message bottles too) don't really go in for much by way of physical descriptions of the characters, so there's no real way to check to see if the "real" Yasu-Shannon looked more like Kanon or Shannon. There isn't actually any reason to suppose that she looked more like the pictures we were shown of Shannon than those of Kanon. But I'm pretty sure that her real appearance won't have been a blonde as in the manga version of her, or had any obvious Italian visual characteristics, although she may well have had long hair.
The real problem with details like hair colour are that the visual novel couldn't care less about them. Probably nearly none of the characters had the hair colour we saw but if we accept this it means nearly none of the characters we saw is 'real'. With Yasu's 'real' look I mean the look Yasu would have if she could have a character design of her own. And the manga implied that her character design would include her having long blonde hair with a fringe which makes her different from Shannon that has short brown hair or Kanon that has short dark hair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Come to think of it...assuming she really did go to the festival, even if Yasu was no longer going to school at the time of the last conference or so, wouldn't there be a really high chance of people she used to go to school with being students at Jessica's school? If she went along to the festival, going in a disguise other than "ordinary Yasu-Shannon but with no fake boobs and wearing a big coat" would be a good idea, if only to spare Jessica's pride. Because really, why would Jessica invite so much ridicule upon herself as to risk people going "Oh hey, Sayo, it's been ages" to the person introduced as Jessica's boyfriend? Going by that, presumably however the Kanon who went to the festival looked is not the most like her usual appearance.
*nods* that would be embarassing... not mentioning Jessica would probably know about her total lack of breasts in addition to knowing she's not male. And she were to pursue him/her regardless not only it would clash with the idea that Jessica supported the George/Shannon relation but would also make her a person who knows a lot about Yasu and yet accept Yasu for how he/she is.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
There's probably only so many ways you can turn things into servant names in the peculiar manner they do on Rokkenjima. Why couldn't there have been multiple Shannons?

I mean at worst you'd have people who would go "Oh, yeah, there was a Shannon... but that was when I worked there in the 1970s, this must have been a different Shannon." This would be easily backed up by the fact that, you know, Model-Shannon would still be alive somewhere. However, I don't think that would be taken as "proof" that the Shannon of 1986 didn't exist or anything; they'd just assume there was a different person who happened to have that servant name. It can't be that uncommon, especially if two servants working in different years were to have reasonably similar real names. It's not like they retire the names like sports jersey numbers.
There could have been of course 2 different Shannon but I don't think the Ushiromiya would have want to have 2 Shannon at the same time as it'll be unpractical.

"who did it?"
"Shannon."
"Which one?"

If there was a Shannon that acted as a model this would mean that at some point Yasu switched her name from whatever-on to Shannon. And as names are given, not chosen and it's also said the kids from Fukuin weren't happy with them, I'm not sure she would have been allowed by Natsuhi to do so.
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Old 2013-02-19, 13:32   Link #31924
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Maybe her name was always Kanon. Or the "model Shannon" wasn't named Shannon, but was just the image of one of the older servants she knew that she tried to emulate along with a "perfect servant" fantasy that she cooked up, with Shannon being her own servant name.
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:13   Link #31925
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Maybe her name was always Kanon. Or the "model Shannon" wasn't named Shannon, but was just the image of one of the older servants she knew that she tried to emulate along with a "perfect servant" fantasy that she cooked up, with Shannon being her own servant name.
We would have then Battler messing up the names. He would have made a promise not to Shannon but to Kanon.
The irony of Shannon being her ideal look would be that afterward she would return to her prior look as the one she deemed 'ideal'.

Honestly I like to think at it like that.
Real Yasu started as a kid with long hair and a fringe (let's ignore hair colour, we already know it's not relevant in Umineko) that was named Shannon.
She built up a role model who might have or might have not based on a real person (or a bunch of real people as she could have taken the hairstyle from someone, the ability from someone else, the kindness from some other person and so on) and that represents who she thinks she wants to become.
While she works toward it she ends up trying to ignore/change some parts of her to become Shannon instead.
In the end she pushes away whatever she could push away that wasn't fitting of Shannon on Beatrice and pretended those sides of her just left her.
She likely cut her hair so as to signal the change.
However she doesn't feel Shannon. Deep inside her she believes her true self is the one that 'left her to become Beatrice'. In short, deep inside herself she perceived herself still with her previous look, not with Shannon's look.
As in Ep 7 Yasu showed up in a magical scene she showed up with what she perceived was her real look... that's not the one of Shannon... but not the one of Beato either as she knows she's not a witch.

So we've the maid uniform as she knows she's a maid, the flat chest as that's how her body is and the look she had before she began to wear the 'mask' of Shannon, whom she perceived as her true self even if probably it doesn't match anymore with her.

A bit like how Eva-Beatrice still looked like a teenager even if Eva wasn't anymore with the only difference Yasu acknowledged her age as hers... but not her look.

So I'm starting to think the blond Yasu is nothing else but a representation of how Yasu sees herself. Likely blond Yasu and Shannon share the same face so visually it's just a matter of different haircut... but on the psychological level the difference can be as striking as between day and night.

As for Kanon he too shares the same face with Yasu and, therefore with Shannon.
His haircut isn't too different from Shannon but of course the body looks different.

I'll say that since Shannon existed prior to Kanon, if we assume Ep 7 told us something true, when Yasu creaded Kanon she merely changed a bit her hairstyle in a way that wouldn't require haircutting or wearing a wig.

Probably the only time she wore a wig was when she took the role of Beatrice.

Of course the manga can end up proving me wrong and we'll learn that Yasu not only began wearing padded bras when Battler was around 12 if not younger, but she also already wore wigs to hide she was a natural blonde as this was frowned upon. Who knows.
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Old 2013-02-21, 03:55   Link #31926
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It's pretty clearly indicated that Shannon was a fabricated person from quite early on because:
  • The first set of staky-servants complained about how Yasu had her own room,
  • but in Yasu's first-person narrative she was roommates with Shannon.
Although there is also one odd point in the latter set of staky-servants' ghost stories where Berune mentions both Yasu and Shannon in the same sentence as though they were different people. I'm still not sure what's going on there.
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Old 2013-02-21, 09:33   Link #31927
theacefrehley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
It's pretty clearly indicated that Shannon was a fabricated person from quite early on because:
  • The first set of staky-servants complained about how Yasu had her own room,
  • but in Yasu's first-person narrative she was roommates with Shannon.
Although there is also one odd point in the latter set of staky-servants' ghost stories where Berune mentions both Yasu and Shannon in the same sentence as though they were different people. I'm still not sure what's going on there.
After a quick check on EP7
If I'm not mistaken, the stake-servants complain that Yasu was the only one who doesn't have to be in a 3 person room, they don't mention that Yasu has a 1 person room, it could be a 2 person room (since Shannon is a senior, it's easier to badmouth Yasu)

EDIT:
Spoiler:
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Old 2013-02-21, 14:29   Link #31928
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I would still say that many things indicate that Shannon was an actual servant from Fukuin, maybe even shared a connection with Yasu, and Yasu tried to be like her best as possible.

It's not unlikely from any perspective. We know that normally Fukuin children only spent a very limited amount of time as servants on Rokkenjima and the graduate like from a prestigious school. Assuming the original Shannon was already a servant when Yasu started working on Rokkenjima, Battler might not have even met the original Shannon and the memory of other people might be hazy at best.
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Old 2013-02-21, 15:15   Link #31929
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Let's say that's true though. Wouldn't that mean "original Shannon" is still around somewhere? She quit years before the Incident, and as far as we know no Fukuin servant other than Yasu was present on the island. So no Fukuin servant other than Yasu would be dead (at least not of any causes we're aware of).

But there are two named in the message bottles. Surely somebody would've checked the Fukuin records to see whether there were any servants by those servant names, or at least checked for real names that might match up. One of several things would then happen:
  • Shannon is Yasu's servant name. The person Yasu called "Shannon" was someone else. People don't know who Kanon is and presumably won't find much of anyone who remembers him.
  • Kanon is Yasu's servant name. People are aware of his/her existence on the island and accept this. However, Shannon is tracked down to a servant who is most certainly alive, was not present on the island, and hasn't even worked for the Ushiromiya family since the mid-70s. This narrows down dramatically the number of people likely as the author of those stories.
  • Neither Shannon nor Kanon is Yasu's servant name. People either don't know Yasu was there and can't find anything about Kanon and know Shannon didn't work there at the time the stories place her there. People do however know Yasu existed, and have no idea why she wasn't in the stories because everybody knows she was working that weekend (it'd be on the schedules, at least).
  • Shkanon is happening in real life and current servants believe there is both a Shannon and a Kanon there. People would still notice the odd issue of two Shannons within ten years, but might shrug it off. Information about Shannon/Kanon would seemingly be quite lackluster, however; only one will have been known to have been working there very long and only one will be known from school.
  • Crackpot Scenario: The message bottles actually do only list one servant, and Shkanon is an embellishment by Beatrice.
In any iteration, it seems like there would be some massive gaps in the scenario that enterprising Witch Hunters ought to have fixated on immediately. In a couple of cases, the information that ought to be available is so damning that it basically outright proves Yasu was the author of the message bottle stories, because literally no one else has the necessary background to know some of that information.
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Old 2013-02-21, 19:15   Link #31930
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
After a quick check on EP7
If I'm not mistaken, the stake-servants complain that Yasu was the only one who doesn't have to be in a 3 person room, they don't mention that Yasu has a 1 person room, it could be a 2 person room (since Shannon is a senior, it's easier to badmouth Yasu)
Case 1: There are five Fukuin servants spread over two rooms, three in one room, two in the other. Shannon, as the senior servant, get her choice of room and roommate(s). What's to complain about?

Case 2: There are four servants spread over two rooms, three in one room and one in the other. The most junior servant gets the single. Barring something like the single being a much smaller room, the servants would be very likely to ask why the rooms aren't split two and two, and why the junior servant gets the best room.
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Old 2013-02-21, 19:24   Link #31931
theacefrehley
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Case 1: There are five Fukuin servants spread over two rooms, three in one room, two in the other. Shannon, as the senior servant, get her choice of room and roommate(s). What's to complain about?
「知らないわよ、部屋の割り振りは源次さまが決めてんだもの。私だって納得行かないわよ。」

Genji is the one who decided the assigning of rooms

Why give a junior the benefit of getting a less cramped room?
Maybe that's what they are complaining about
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Old 2013-02-21, 20:32   Link #31932
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
After a quick check on EP7
If I'm not mistaken, the stake-servants complain that Yasu was the only one who doesn't have to be in a 3 person room, they don't mention that Yasu has a 1 person room, it could be a 2 person room (since Shannon is a senior, it's easier to badmouth Yasu)

EDIT:
Spoiler:
But then Yasu wouldn't be the only one to be in a 2 persons room.
And when Yasu rewrote the world and she 'part ways' with Shannon it's stated the room was always a single room.

Quote:
I turned around to face my bed.
.........?
My bed wasn't there.
There was no bed in this room except the one I had just turned my back on.
If I'm the only one in this room, and the only bed is the one behind me, ......that must mean it's my bed.
......That feels wrong, for some reason.
The bed sheets are all disarranged, as though someone had slipped out of them.
Who did...?
This is a single-person room with me in it, right?
So, that there is my bed, and the traces of someone crawling out...mean that I was just sleeping there until a second ago...?
......But, for some reason...
that bed......
doesn't feel like my bed.
However, though all the other kids shared rooms, I, Shannon, was given a single-person room.
So, there's only one bed.
And it must be mine.
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Old 2013-02-21, 20:49   Link #31933
theacefrehley
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
But then Yasu wouldn't be the only one to be in a 2 persons room.
And when Yasu rewrote the world and she 'part ways' with Shannon it's stated the room was always a single room.
We can twist that line in a few ways.
The other person would be 'Shannon', a senior.
You could say she had another status (Like midground between Genji and lowly servants), so the stake-servants do not lump her together with Yasu and the stakes.


And, assuming Shannon was a real person, she obviously didn't disappear overnight like Clare's narration seems to imply.
And when 'Shannon' graduated from being a servant, Genji removed her bed and stuff and made it a single room for Yasu.


What I mean with all this is that it's up in the air. It's not conclusive whether 'Shannon' existed or not.
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Old 2013-02-22, 06:00   Link #31934
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
After a quick check on EP7
If I'm not mistaken, the stake-servants complain that Yasu was the only one who doesn't have to be in a 3 person room, they don't mention that Yasu has a 1 person room, it could be a 2 person room (since Shannon is a senior, it's easier to badmouth Yasu)

EDIT:
Spoiler:
That last line is a complaint that a 3-1 split should be a 2-2 split.
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Old 2013-02-22, 07:49   Link #31935
theacefrehley
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
That last line is a complaint that a 3-1 split should be a 2-2 split.
Well,
There is this line before:
「つか、部屋狭いよね。お屋敷広すぎんのに、寮はケチりすぎー。」

Maybe she is complaining that the Ushiromiya, being so rich, should have enough rooms for 2-2-2-2 splits (we don't know how many servants live in the dorms and take turns, though), instead of 3-3-2, for example.

Just trying to match the pieces of info, though. (Berune mentioning Shannon and the room split matter). Not being too adamant here.
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Old 2013-02-22, 08:42   Link #31936
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I reaaaaaally don't see it. If there was some other Shannon around, she wasn't actually Yasu's roommate.

That one comment from Berune really vexes me, I must say. Otherwise Yasu=nickname and Shannon=blessed name accounts for everything so nicely. I want a good excuse to dismiss it.
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Old 2013-02-22, 09:38   Link #31937
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Wanderer you posted a lot on knownomore's video XDD . Felt epic when I saw a fellow animesuki member.
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Old 2013-02-22, 09:50   Link #31938
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I don't know if I even want to know how that went. That seems like quite the rough territory.
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Old 2013-02-22, 10:18   Link #31939
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What is this comment from Berune you're talking about? I don't have the script handy, but I don't remember "Shannon" ever being acknowledged by anyone but Yasu in those scenes.

And I commented a lot on those videos a while back, too. He never responded to most of it, though.
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Old 2013-02-22, 10:36   Link #31940
theacefrehley
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
What is this comment from Berune you're talking about? I don't have the script handy, but I don't remember "Shannon" ever being acknowledged by anyone but Yasu in those scenes.

And I commented a lot on those videos a while back, too. He never responded to most of it, though.
When the new servants are being negligent with the keys:

「い、いいですか。このお屋敷には魔女が住んでるんですよ…?」
<Yasu> L-listen. A witch lives in this mansion, you know...?
「おぉ、ベアトリーチェよ~!」
<ベルゼ
[Belze] Ooh, Beatrice~!
「きゃっはははは! それ似てるぅ~!」
<アスモ
[Asmo] Kyaahahahaha! It's just like that~!
「まさか、紗音ちゃんも。それ信じてるわけじゃないですよねー?」
<ベルゼ
[Belze] Don't tell me you believe in that, too, Shannon-chan?
「い、いえ、本当にいるんですよ…。物を放ったらかしにしておくと、魔女が悪戯して隠したりするんですよ… 。」
<紗音
[Shannon] N-no, she really exists.... If you leave your stuff lying around, the witch will make a prank and hide them....


And after that, when Berune is talking about the key missing from the bunch and witches:

違うよ!!@ 私、ヤスに、紗音に、熊沢さんとかにも相談したの!@ そしたら、やっぱり魔女はいるって. ..。@
"You're wrong!! I discussed with Yasu, Shannon, and Kumasawa-san about it! And they said that the witch really exists...





Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I reaaaaaally don't see it. If there was some other Shannon around, she wasn't actually Yasu's roommate.

That one comment from Berune really vexes me, I must say. Otherwise Yasu=nickname and Shannon=blessed name accounts for everything so nicely. I want a good excuse to dismiss it.
Maybe Shannon existed, she was Yasu's idol, but they never were that close and didn't even share rooms. Shannon in her room was the delusion, even though she was actually present in the mansion.


Obviously, there's the matter of the servant name matching with the real name: 紗音 (Shannon) and 紗代 (Sayo) (same first kanji). But you could dodge that by saying that 70's Shannon had a different name than Shannon. (And who knows if Sayo is really Yasuda's first name)
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